Designing a Trading Card Game

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Mon Jul 29, 2013 3:48 am

What all does a card game need? What mechanics are overused in card games? What mechanics are underused or would you like to see in a card game?

I was a huge fan of the may-fly lifespanned card game Hecatomb (as older members of the forum may be vaguely aware) and for a while wanted to one day buy the trademark to remake it. After talking to a friend about it and emailing the lead designer (Jonathan Tweet, incidentally) for his opinion on the viability of the idea, I've been convinced it'd be better to just design something new.

It seems to come down to a card game needing, at base:
-a resource to manage as you play cards (a currency, limited board space, etc)
-one or more objectives (deplete an opponent's resource [life points, deck, honor, provinces], accumulate a resource of your own [souls, honor]
-cards which interact with your opponent in such a way as to advance your progress towards the objective or retard their own.

thoughts?

Also, ideas for ways to show a card is "expended" which don't involve turning it sideways and aren't generally speaking absurd or unwieldy would be appreciated, since apparently WotC trademarked or patented or something turning a card 90 degrees to do so.

TheFlatline · Post by **TheFlatline** » Mon Jul 29, 2013 4:41 am

You need a topic that will interest people enough to play.

And everybody "taps" cards in CCGs and LCGs. They just call it something else- depleting, kneeling, engaging, whatever... The actual mechanic of turning a card 90 degrees to show it's been activated is a mechanic, and mechanics generally can be copied.

I'd honestly suggest skipping CCGs- Magic and Pokemon are the only two that are thriving. LCGs are doing better, but right now set distribution card games are where it's at generally speaking.

Random distribution models are going to fail. Period. The market for them collapsed over a decade ago.

I'd suggest rolling over to boardgamegeek.com and asking some questions of the game dev forum over there. You can easily get in touch with a *lot* of professional card game designers.

Other than that, it's hard to tell what's burned out and what's cliche. There's a lot of variation out there, and even among card games deckbuilding is hot right now. But aside from that you have all kinds of games like Glory to Rome and Omen of War.

I guess what all those things have in common is that you don't have to buy random packets of cards hoping to get a good one. The distribution is either complete or set like in LCGs where you get three dupes of every copy, thereby more or less destroying the singles after market.

Chamomile · Post by **Chamomile** » Mon Jul 29, 2013 5:28 am

Do not provide any indication as to how people should keep track of which cards have been expended. Lacking any other rule, people will plug in the technically patented M:tG method of turning a card sideways, and since it appears nowhere in any of your actual rules, you won't need to worry about it legally unless your game gets big enough for an officially sanctioned tournament scene, at which point you can afford to print tokens that indicate which cards have been depleted/expended/other not-patented synonym for tapped.

shadzar · Post by **shadzar** » Mon Jul 29, 2013 7:35 am

TCGs need one most important thing, planned obsolescence. this prevents "power 9" from being played in "type 2" M:tG games, so that early adopters of the limited cards don't somehow have a gold mine and new players are screwed over. it also generates more money, unless you are Munchkin in which most of the "games" work together, then you add in t-shirts, shoes, and whatever else that has rules for it.

then you need:
-goal/target
-is it competitive or cooperative?
-deck size (personal or shared?)
-hand size
-reason to draw a card
-"used" card area (discard pile)
-what do the cards do for you or your opponent?
-card shape

WotC got copyright to the term "tap" for turning a card sideways. nothing can stop people from rotating a card from it upright position, so you just have to call it something else in your game. other options are moving cards to a holding area until they "reset" to be expended again, turning it so its back is showing, etc. depending on the card shape you cold orientate it for different things depending on its number of sides.

Dean · Post by **Dean** » Mon Jul 29, 2013 9:09 am

Yeah, you'll use tapping like everyone else. You just call it something absurd in your rulebook like Bowing and everyone in the meatspace world just calls it tapping.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Mon Jul 29, 2013 9:21 am

The funny thing about tapping is that most people who use the mechanic are connected in some way to WotC, apparently. Fantasy Flight (Cardgame of Thrones) pays WotC a royalty and L5R used to be published by WotC. At least according to that site people excoriate me for continuing to look at because it's community is terrible. I mean, the other one, not this one.

Chamomile · Post by **Chamomile** » Mon Jul 29, 2013 9:41 am

WotC was able to actually sue the Pokemon card game people for turning their cards sideways back in like 1999 or something. They eventually settled out of court, but something tells me Prak can't afford lawyers as awesome as Nintendo's.

shadzar · Post by **shadzar** » Mon Jul 29, 2013 9:50 am

i dont care what other people do, just don't call it tapping, in the case of using a card without discarding it, i remember many games before WotC even existed where it was suggested to turn a card sideways to distinguish it from others, so WotC did NOT create the method, like HASBRO did NOT create Monopoly (they stole it from Quakers).

a spades method is to turn "tricks" sideways for easy counting the "line" of them. the method to turn a "playing piece" sideways to use has been around as long as dominoes has, and you can easily play dominoes with cards rather than tiles. HASBRO and WotC has no claim to dominoes.

those people that use the term "tap" are using WotC copyright material. simple as that.

the TAP thing was what occured when WotC tried to patent RPG rules to pretty much shut down every RPG that ever was based off D&D, in which they brought about the "game rules cannot be copyrighted/patented", and only the complete book could hold a copyright (probably why they cant print AD&D again since it has E Gary Gygax in 1st edition, without permission from someone.). so newly created things could be copyrighted, but NOBODY can copyright the like of bridge, cops and robbers, etc. only the presentation and the exact art and such.

if you want a single function expendable on a card and want to bypass "tap", then just do dual oriented cards. when facing up it says "available", when facing upside-down it says "recharging".

or have a "holding area" where used cards go until they return to play next turn. mine your gold mine card, then move it out of the play area into a holding area, and at the beginning of the next turn all those cards come back from the holding area into the play area. make a playmat if needed for it.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Mon Jul 29, 2013 9:53 am

Oh, sure. It's the in rules "turn card sideways" thing that will get me sued. Honestly, even if I created an "exhausted" zone, people would probably just turn their cards sideways (especially since I'm cannibalizing a Hecatomb gimmick which involves creatures being represented by stacks of 2-5 cards)

shadzar · Post by **shadzar** » Mon Jul 29, 2013 10:10 am

what player do with your game, can not get you sued. it is in how you present it, and IF there is some sort of event, in how you enfore those rules.

that is the key, the presentation, which the case saying game rules cannot be copyrighted, only their presentation, kind of contradicts the entire "tap patent". since you can't copyright the ability scores per say, how can you copyright "tap".

also if you designated on the card that a turn is possible in several directions, then the "up" state of the card denotes it current function. WotC has nothing like that. nor can they truely patent turning a card again because that is something that is in the method of play of the game spades, pinochle, bridge, dominoes, etc where Richard Garfield got it from.

if you are afraid of players using that mechanism in order to play with, then just don't make a TCG.

you want something expendable and not needing the card anymore, then track it. X gold card is played and discarded, but you track the amount it offers, and just get that much each turn. then don't use anything like "mana burn", but only have that amount and any over that amount is lost when not used that turn. sell a small playing card sized abacus type counter for the game as thre is no patent or copyright on the abacus. might even be a novel use as a counter, since tax collectors used to use them, and voila, your expendable resource card is not tapped at all.

or have a basic set that has a player card on it that tracks such for each player and include pogs/pawns to place on the scale and move to the location of the expendable resource.

the more accessories you can create, then more revenue, cause TCG players by all sorts of counters and shit. nobody can patent a number line either which is all this is.

really people would need to know WHAT your expendable resource is in order to come up with an idea of how to create it for the game without having to use the "tap" concept.

even without having a physical card in play, there is a way to destroy resources with other cards, by simply doing so. destroy X resources, and the number line is adjusted, or the abacus is adjusted, or whatever.

sadly i don't know hecatomb or its gimmicks to help directly to know what to tell you you could use.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Mon Jul 29, 2013 10:14 am

You misunderstand. I merely want to not get sued. I don't give a shit how players denote that a card is exhausted. I may wind up saying "put an expend counter on the card, or otherwise denote the card is expended."

shadzar · Post by **shadzar** » Mon Jul 29, 2013 10:39 am

then don't reference turning a card, or calling it "tapping". also counter may be included in that "tap patent" as it involved several aspects of MtG, and you would have to look at them all to see. thus moving cards to another area like done in chess, backgammon, checkers, poker, etc is public domain.

again, how the players play the game is in no way YOUR responsibility. Hoyle cant be sued for someone murdering someone else with a deck of regular wax coated paper playing cards. Dove can't be sued because someone stabbed someone else with a knife carved from a bar of soap.

any "card" you produce, the same lawsuit could be attributed to Hoyle, WotC, Konami, etc that also makes cards when they are misused.

you are more likely to be sued by using a "gimmick from Hecatomb" than finding a method to expend resources in a game.

i am still dumbfounded how card turning should even get a patent, when a card is naught but a paper tile, and again dominoes (@1200 AD) predecessor mahjong (@500 BC) existed LONG before playing cards (@900 AD), all in China none the less.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Mon Jul 29, 2013 11:00 am

Patents exist for all kind of crazy shit. I'm pretty sure someone actually tried to patent playing cards, and I'm not sure which way it went.

The gimmick from Hecatomb is fusing creatures together. In Hecatomb, you could stack up to five creatures, and the strength of the composite creature was the total, and it had any salient abilities of the components. This led to the problem which made it fail, because they made the cards plastic so the edges could be transparent:

This made them expensive and somewhat brittle.

There are totally ways to ape that mechanic, give it more depth, and not stray from rectangular cardboard cards.

shadzar · Post by **shadzar** » Mon Jul 29, 2013 11:12 am

so the "gimmick" you want is to stack card, also like in MtG, and be able to add their function together?

have you designed a card template yet in MTG editor or whatever that program is called? where the stats are on the side, top or bottom of the card?

a few years ago i had a friend that wanted to make tokens for angels or something in MtG and wanted to make them transparent. i just told them to print on an overhead transparency. worked good in the clear card sleeves he had. not sure about it if you have a backed sleeve.

that would be manufacturing, not really rules. you would have to work out the rules and see what can be affordable to manufacture. there are lots of possibilities, those pentagonal cards like hexagonal and octagonal are probably problematic.

i would jsut use counters for those abilities, as the concept seems good, but in practice it would be problematic for the reasons you listed. unless you had a window in the cards to see through so it wasnt on the outer edge.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Mon Jul 29, 2013 11:35 am

shadzar wrote:so the "gimmick" you want is to stack card, also like in MtG, and be able to add their function together?

have you designed a card template yet in MTG editor or whatever that program is called? where the stats are on the side, top or bottom of the card?

In MTG Editor or MSE, no, not yet. Designed a template for creatures, yes:

I have no interest in making the plastic cards. It was cute, and had a definite "wow" factor (and the cards smelled oddly good. Damned plastic fumes), but there's no real reason to use them if they cost more, which I'm certain they still do, with the ever rising price of petroleum.

shadzar · Post by **shadzar** » Mon Jul 29, 2013 11:41 am

yeah, bont let people steal that. the idea was do you have something such that card can be aligned. that is the important thing. the way it looks (you can remove the pic if you want) shows that orienting the card a number of ways to "stack" has nothing to do with "expendable" or "tap".

i doubt anyone can blame you for stacking cards, again, bridge, spades, etc use "tricks" as a counting tool so stacking cards should be pretty public domain at this point thanks to them.

i was thinking the stack would somehow be the equivalent to "tap" for resources. it may still be, and i may still be very confused, but at least you should understand where i was coming from at this point, even if i don't understand what you are doing.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Mon Jul 29, 2013 11:51 am

WotC has a patent on Collectible Card Games in general, which was granted in 1997. It has never gone to court, because that would be stupid even for the American Patent System.

WotC did take Nintendo to court over their Pokemon card game in 2003, but that is because until 2003 the Pokemon card game was produced by... Wizards of the Coast. Nintendo allowed WotC's license to expire and then took control of the card game, at which point WotC took them to court because they had been producing the game for several years and owned a bunch of the mechanics and specific card wordings and art and shit. They settled out of court for some undisclosed amount, which was basically WotC forcing Nintendo to buy all the ancillary pieces that WotC had produced for the game while they had the license to do so.

If you aren't doing a hostile takeover of a licensed product that WotC has been doing the design work on for five years, WotC is not going to sue you.

That being said, CCGs are a blatantly unfair and silly model and you shouldn't do things that way. LCGs and Deckbuilding games and such are a much better format.

-Username17

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Mon Jul 29, 2013 11:54 am

I looked up a description of what a deckbuilding game is. It may have been a poor explanation, but it only raised further questions for me.

I'm not sure what LCG stands for, but I assume they are basically non-collectible card games, or just card games, like Munchkin or Cards Against Humanity?

shadzar · Post by **shadzar** » Mon Jul 29, 2013 12:11 pm

Living Card Game

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Mon Jul 29, 2013 1:06 pm

Prak_Anima wrote:I looked up a description of what a deckbuilding game is. It may have been a poor explanation, but it only raised further questions for me.

I'm not sure what LCG stands for, but I assume they are basically non-collectible card games, or just card games, like Munchkin or Cards Against Humanity?

LCG is a "living card game". That is a card game in which additional card sets and plot advancements may happen at some point in the future. It could technically be something like Munchkin or Cards Against Humanity, but is usually reserved for games that have a fixed distribution system but still allow constructed decks - like Illuminati or Game of Thrones.

Deck Building Games are games which are to one degree or another ripping off Dominion. Games in which you start with a fixed deck and then either add or replace cards into it during the course of the game. Like that Japanese game about getting anime maids into your room (Tanto Cuore), or that other Japanese game about Nazi upskirt pictures (Barba*Rossa). Those should be jokes, but they aren't. Because Japan.

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[/img]

The Deck Building genre is reasonably popular right now. Heck, even Penny Arcade cashed in and made their own Deck Building Game (which I was not overly impressed by, the game about molesting maids was better designed and had a tighter connection between the flavor and the mechanics). Basically, you can invest in economy (either cards that give you one or more in game "currencies" that will let you buy more/better cards in the future or cards that will allow you to draw/play more cards on future turns) and you can invest in victory (cards that are scored at the end of the game). Then you can either make the cards you can purchase for inclusion in your deck fixed and known (the supply piles in Dominion, for example), or you can make them random (as in Ascension: Chronicle of the Godslayer). Or you can do a mix.

And of course there are ways to mix and match the mechanics themselves. In Tanto Cuore, you can buy cards out of your deck into a scored pile in addition to buying them in to your deck. That way you can get cards that are worth a lot of VP without clogging up your deck. In Ascension, there are two different currencies that you can buy cards with, and different cards will give you access to different currencies.

-Username17

DragonChild · Post by **DragonChild** » Mon Jul 29, 2013 3:07 pm

www.fantasystrike.com has a free deck-building game you can play, Puzzle Strike. If you've never played one before it's a nice way to learn, and all you need is to download Unity to play it in-browser. Josh_K is also one of the top players of it.

"Living Card Game" is specifically fantasy flight's name for their non-random card games. They usually sell a base set with a ton of cards, and then a $15 or so pack every month with 3 copies of 20 new cards (a full playset), and the occasional bigger boxes with more like 60 new cards. I currently play Netrunner, Call of Cthulhu, and slightly dabble kind of in Star Wars.

Unfortunately, FFG still gets a shitton of stuff wrong. The Call of Ctuhlhu base set had only 1x of each card, and some of the expansion packs had 2x, when you need 3x for a full playset. Netrunner expansions all have 3x.... but the base set has 3x, 2x, and 1x copies, meaning you're seriously being asked for pay $30 for that third set that just contains like 1 copy of 8 different card you need.

Previn · Post by **Previn** » Mon Jul 29, 2013 3:25 pm

The patent containing MTG's tap mechanic were filed in 1995 (Patent #5,662,332). It's a utility patent, which means it expires in 2015.

TheFlatline · Post by **TheFlatline** » Mon Jul 29, 2013 9:10 pm

Also, your concept of turning the card to represent different actions/abilities is used in a LOT of different games. Nightfall does it and it's a deckbuilding game.

Seriously, if you're not familiar with the state of the industry today you need to go research it and find out from professionals what you can and can't use. There might be popular genres out that fit your game idea better.

From my monitoring, almost no kickstarter project that was a CCG has succeeded, whereas set distribution models and deckbuilding games have generated enough interest.

Those differences may influence how you design your game and what cards go into it.

Ravengm · Post by **Ravengm** » Mon Jul 29, 2013 11:53 pm

Like people are saying, you don't want a CCG distribution model, because people hate randomized product and you'd be directly competing with Magic and Pokemon.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Tue Jul 30, 2013 12:03 am

Makes sense. So long as non-collectable cad game with constructed decks isn't a completely bizarre thing, I'm good with that.

I tried the Puzzle Strike tutorial. It was blander than matzoh. Seriously, I got that there was some vague fist fight thing going on, but there was next to no mechanic-flavour connection.

If someone knows of a better deck building game with a better online tutorial, I'll check it out. So far, however, Deck Building does not seem to be the way I want to go with this.

edit: I'm thinking about distribution models, is there any reason you couldn't do all of these for one game:

Full Play Set (3 of each card in set, or whatever the deck limit for a given card is)
One-each set (a single copy of each card in set)
Colour Sets (as above, but only the cards of given colour, so like a Black set for Magic if it weren't a CCG).