Is Communism Lawful Evil or Chaotic Evil?

hyzmarca · Post by **hyzmarca** » Tue Jul 30, 2013 12:48 am

If I'm going to start a Marxist-Leninist Revolution in Fantasy Land, should I preach to the Orcs or the Hobgoblins?

If I wanted to raise a red star over one of the lower planes, should I try to recruit Demons or Devils?

CatharzGodfoot · Post by **CatharzGodfoot** » Tue Jul 30, 2013 12:57 am

That question is so wrong on so many levels.

That said, the devils would be all over a Stalinist bureaucracy, and the demons would be perfectly happy as roving red militias murdering petit-bourgeoisie.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Tue Jul 30, 2013 1:10 am

"Communism" is too broad a term, and means different things to different people. So do you want Marxism or Leninism? They're not the same thing.

Then you have Stalinism, which combines "the communist parts (which improve lives and are arguably Good)" with "the dictator/murderer parts (which would be some flavour of Evil)".

Then there's American Communism, which involves "being Corporatist, but black". And the more modern examples of actual Communism (Scandinavia), which would have to be a variety of Good.

The next step is to decide what you want Law and Chaos to mean in your D&D game.

So, to sum it up:
1. On the X axis of a chart, list the flavours of communism and choose the one you want.
2. On the Y axis of the same chart, list the flavours of Law and Chaos and choose the one you want.
3. Find where they meet.

Grek · Post by **Grek** » Tue Jul 30, 2013 1:16 am

Any alignment works, as far as philosophy. Just as you can have a Lawful Good Paladin King of Justice and Peace or a Chaotic Evil King of Random Impalement, you can have Chaotic or Lawful Communists.

Practically speaking, an Evil Fantasy Communist state looking toward gaining infernal power for the revolution probably wants to side with the Demons, and specifically with a glabrezu willing to grant Wishes in exchange for the souls of political dissidents.

Race-wise, Hobgoblins would be the more interesting choice, since their whole thing is complicated interlocking ties of feudal obligation. You can have Czarist Hobs and Revolutionary Hobs and it would be very interesting. Orcs lack that pinazz.

TheFlatline · Post by **TheFlatline** » Tue Jul 30, 2013 1:27 am

hyzmarca wrote:If I'm going to start a Marxist-Leninist Revolution in Fantasy Land, should I preach to the Orcs or the Hobgoblins?

If I wanted to raise a red star over one of the lower planes, should I try to recruit Demons or Devils?

I'd preach to the Elves personally.

CatharzGodfoot · Post by **CatharzGodfoot** » Tue Jul 30, 2013 1:32 am

Grek wrote:Race-wise, Hobgoblins would be the more interesting choice, since their whole thing is complicated interlocking ties of feudal obligation. You can have Czarist Hobs and Revolutionary Hobs and it would be very interesting.

Agreed, but . . . what?

Grek wrote:Orcs lack that pinazz.

Grek · Post by **Grek** » Tue Jul 30, 2013 1:38 am

On further consideration, I think I should have spelled that "panache" instead.

hyzmarca · Post by **hyzmarca** » Tue Jul 30, 2013 2:43 am

Koumei wrote:"Communism" is too broad a term, and means different things to different people. So do you want Marxism or Leninism? They're not the same thing.

I would prefer the type that conspires to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids. You know, 50s propaganda movie Communism.

Chamomile · Post by **Chamomile** » Tue Jul 30, 2013 2:45 am

So Stalinism, in which case Lawful Evil probably. You could make a case for Lawful Neutral, but building national infrastructure benefits the state as much as the people and in my mind does not even come close to canceling out the gulags and mass graves. The kafka-esque bureaucracy involved puts you firmly on the Lawful side of almost every Law/Chaos distinction I've ever seen.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Tue Jul 30, 2013 2:50 am

hyzmarca wrote:
Koumei wrote:"Communism" is too broad a term, and means different things to different people. So do you want Marxism or Leninism? They're not the same thing.
I would prefer the type that conspires to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids. You know, 50s propaganda movie Communism.

You really needed to mention that at the start then, as this is the Gaming Den, where most of us feel that some variety of communism can actually work, and where we don't listen to 50s propaganda movies or Fox News.

Maxus · Post by **Maxus** » Tue Jul 30, 2013 3:30 am

There's a quote from one of the Tomes, I think, which points out that there's wizards who specialize in Divination. And paladins who actually radiate goodness. Communism would go a lot smoother if it had D&D-world resources like those.

kzt · Post by **kzt** » Tue Jul 30, 2013 3:36 am

Clearly the fact that the actual examples of communist goverment in the real world have produced garrison states and mass graves means that none of them are "real" communist states, because "real" communist states would feature unicorns with wings delivering prosperity to all the citizens.

Rawbeard · Post by **Rawbeard** » Tue Jul 30, 2013 3:53 am

If you are american it is obviously super duper chaotic evil, destroyer of freedoms! Otherwise it would be maybe around lawful neutral, if it works even lawful to neutral good.

If you want to have an evil dictatorship or whatever that calls itself communism, or came from failed communism, lawful evil will make most sense, since those in power will have to try to stay in power by oppression, not senseless carnage.

Unless they are drow, then they can be chaotic evil while having a rigid society following a trillion unshakable rules. Or something.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Tue Jul 30, 2013 3:56 am

All communism should involve magical winged unicorns delivering prosperity.

hyzmarca · Post by **hyzmarca** » Tue Jul 30, 2013 4:12 am

Prak_Anima wrote:All communism should involve magical winged unicorns delivering prosperity.

But evil unicorns.

I'm pretty sure those exist.

Evil cannibal unicorns.

Also, presume a alignment hats set-up where the biggest qualitative difference between Good and Evil is that Evil naturally has a better fashion sense.

Chamomile · Post by **Chamomile** » Tue Jul 30, 2013 4:13 am

hyzmarca wrote:Also, presume a alignment hats set-up where the biggest qualitative difference between Good and Evil is that Evil naturally has a better fashion sense.

In that case, while Nazis are clearly Evil, most varieties of Communists are probably Neutral at worst.

Grek · Post by **Grek** » Tue Jul 30, 2013 4:28 am

You know what? That's my new explanation for alignments.

Good: Not well dressed.
Neutral: Eh.
Evil: Snazzy.

Lawful: Uniforms for all!
Neutral: Eh.
Chaotic: Everyone is wearing something different.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Tue Jul 30, 2013 4:38 am

kzt wrote:Clearly the fact that the actual examples of communist goverment in the real world have produced garrison states and mass graves means that none of them are "real" communist states, because "real" communist states would feature unicorns with wings delivering prosperity to all the citizens.

You mean like Sweden and Denmark?

If you only include countries that have "The Communist People's Republic of ____" in their name or are led by a party that specifically calls itself "The Communist Party" or whatever then you're just a retard who attaches meaning to what people call themselves. I am officially The Goddess With Control Over kzt. Seeing as that's my name, I have control over you. Go spend all of your money on walnut whips, scoop the fondant out of them and sculpt it into a statue of a tank. NOW.

Heaps of legit Communist places involved mass murders. This often annoyed the populace, though just as often they felt it was no different to the guys who were replaced by the Communists, and then no different to the CIA-backed guys who came afterwards. Basically every system has had plenty examples of the government killing everyone.

But at the moment, Democratic Communism seems to be doing the best in the world, without even calling itself Communism.

Darth Rabbitt · Post by **Darth Rabbitt** » Tue Jul 30, 2013 4:39 am

kzt wrote:Clearly the fact that the actual examples of communist goverment in the real world have produced garrison states and mass graves means that none of them are "real" communist states, because "real" communist states would feature unicorns with wings delivering prosperity to all the citizens.

Yeah, it was clearly Allende who set up a military dictatorship in Chile through a bloody coup, and Kerala is totally a fucking pile of mass killings, and no communist government has had a massive increase in life expectancy from redistribution or otherwise... oh wait, you're just full of shit.

Now perhaps you'll try and weasel out and say that those aren't "real" communists, but you just tried to make the claim that anyone defending communism is making a No True Scotsman, so either way your argument falls flat.

Prak_Anima wrote:All communism should involve magical winged unicorns delivering prosperity.

Someone did a version of the Soviet Union Tetris video with My Little Pony clips, if that counts.

More on topic, Hollywood communism would clearly be Lawful Evil by the standard D&D definitions, but if it's about how well dressed they are then the only evil communists would be the Maoists (Mao suits for the win).

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Tue Jul 30, 2013 4:48 am

Soviet Commissar outfits looked pretty sweet, too.

Darth Rabbitt · Post by **Darth Rabbitt** » Tue Jul 30, 2013 4:58 am

OK, and that basically gives you Hollywood Communists: the Russians and the Chinese are plotting their wacky evil schemes to kill Thor with radiation.

TheFlatline · Post by **TheFlatline** » Tue Jul 30, 2013 5:04 am

Koumei wrote:
hyzmarca wrote:
Koumei wrote:"Communism" is too broad a term, and means different things to different people. So do you want Marxism or Leninism? They're not the same thing.
I would prefer the type that conspires to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids. You know, 50s propaganda movie Communism.
You really needed to mention that at the start then, as this is the Gaming Den, where most of us feel that some variety of communism can actually work, and where we don't listen to 50s propaganda movies or Fox News.

You automatically fail the interwebs for missing the Dr Strangelove reference.

TheFlatline · Post by **TheFlatline** » Tue Jul 30, 2013 5:08 am

A better question for this thread would be: Is communism actually possible? In a wish economy like D&D, it's kind of hard to spread out the means of production across a population. Also, on a wish economy, you're kind of post-scarcity.

Assuming you don't do the wish economy thing, with spells like gates and shit you could make a pretty efficient system for collection and distribution of resources, as well as the outright generation of certain resources.

flare22 · Post by **flare22** » Tue Jul 30, 2013 5:30 am

I don't think there has ever been a truly comunist state their were many that tried but they all got stuck in the step three and never finished becoming comunist. Sweden and denmark both have socailist elements but they both still have private buisinesses and plenty of workers who get paid in wages and the people do not own the means of production

Acording to marx the first phase of any economy is fuadalism fallowed by industrial capitalism fallowed by a dictatorship of the proletariat and then true comunism no one has ever made past number three so far

As for comunism in a rpg make sure its not a fuadal system russia tried to skip a step and go straight from fuadalism to the dictatorship of the proles and look were it got them

Sorry for any spelling errors my computer is on the fritz and I'm using my phone

OgreBattle · Post by **OgreBattle** » Tue Jul 30, 2013 5:35 am

Well, do you think Mao Zedong is more of an orc or a hobgoblin?

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Is Communism Lawful Evil or Chaotic Evil?

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