What is the biggest debacle of RPG history?

[zugschef]

Rape isn't about sex, it's about power and control.

That's not entirely correct. While a lot of rapists use sexual violence to experience power and control, some rapists do indeed have sexual motives and can only experience sexual pleasure via power and control, and then there are those who exploit their power to gain sexual fulfillment, such as pedophile pedosexuals.

[zugschef]

Under British law, fisting a mouth is not rape, and it is not assault by penetration. It can be sexual assault if you can prove that it was sexual, which would require additional evidence beyond the act itself, because there is nothing inherently sexual about inserting a fist into a mouth. The obvious interpretation is that it is intended to cause pain or injury.

Right. Technically. Practically it is the same even at court. In Switzerland, technically, penetrating someone's ass against his/her will, is not considered rape. But guess what, in essence it concludes to the same sentence, as the penalties for sexual assault and rape have the same extents.

[ishy]

Huh. Apparently until the 12th of march this year, forced french kissing was considered rape.

The more you know.jpg

[Username17]

Forcibly inserting a flower into somebody's mouth is not rape under any reasonable definition.

Holy balls!? Why are you still talking!? We agreed that you would shut the fuck up once it was conclusively demonstrated that you were full of shit and should stop talking! We already fucking did that! Shut up! Shut up! Shut up!

I'm done even pretending that you have anything to say or have a viewpoint worth even discussing. You're just fucking wrong.

You were the one who insisted on using the FBI statistical criteria to define Rape. Well guess what? Aliens fucking qualifies! We already went over this! You're so full of shit, that if beat the shit out of you, there would be nothing left but a flap of skin and some incredibly offensive opinions about rape.

Look, the FBI statistical criteria only counts if one of three orifices are violated:

• Vagina by [anything]
• Anus by [anything]
• Mouth by the assailant's own sexual organs.

Now, any person reading that list will probably think of four to ten things that range from the fantastic to the frighteningly plausible that would by any sane observer be called rape that don't qualify. Let's just say you have a lot of orifices and leave it at that. But you know what? The Xenomorph's activity does meet those criteria.

Is it violating the victim's mouth? Yes.
Is it using a sex organ to do it? Yes.
Is it using its own sex organ to do it? Yes.

Now I can think of a number of scenarios in which forcing a flower into someone's mouth would be considered rape. But we're not talking about edge cases or hypotheticals. We're talking about something which exactly meets the extremely restrictive stastical criteria that you fucking quoted.

So man up and admit that you were fucking wrong or you go on ignore and don't come off. Ever.

-Username17

[Whipstitch]

Like I said, the sperg is strong.

[Prak]

Might I suggest a better way to deal with Pulsewidth?

[DSMatticus]

A simple change that illustrates the point: facehuggers are now crotchhuggers, and instead of delivering their parasitic payload through the mouth they do so through the vagina or anus. Can we all agree that is rape? Yes, yes we can. Please tell me we fucking can. No one can be that stupid. Now, if you think crotchhuggers are interspecies rapists and facehuggers aren't, then what you're saying is shoving things in people's mouth is only rape if it's a human penis or something. That's dumb and terrible.

Yes, the facehugger is a parasitic rape monster. There are parasitic monsters that do not rape (botfly). There are rape monsters that are not parasitic (oh Japan). But the facehugger (or its spawn, rather) is a parasite that is delivered by restraining its victim and shoving something down their throat. That is definitely rape. That the something in question happens to literally be the creature's sex organs (i.e. the organs it uses as part of its reproductive cycle) is just the icing on the rapecake.

Now, sure, the facehugger isn't a drunk frat boy doing it to get laid or a sexual predator who values dominating people. It's just a dumb animal doing a dumb animal thing that happens to be horrific facerape.

[Prak]

Seriously, just put Pulsewidth on ignore. He's either a troll or someone raped his ass with his own head.

[Pulsewidth]

So man up and admit that you were fucking wrong or you go on ignore and don't come off. Ever.

Some consistent positions you could support:
1: Ovipositors are sexual organs. Inserting a sexual organ into an open wound is rape. Botflys are rapists. The xenomorph is a rapist.
2: Ovipositors are sexual organs. Inserting a sexual organ into an open wound is not rape, because an open wound is not one of the FBI's three specified orifices. Botflys are not rapists unless they manage to lay their eggs inside a mouth, which I'm not sure is possible. The xenomorph is a rapist because of the special properties of the mouth.
3: Ovipositors are not sexual organs. Botflys are not rapists. The xenomorph is not a rapist.
4: Ovipositors are not sexual organs, but the xenomorph does not have an ordinary ovipositor. It has something more analogous to a penis, as suggested in Alien 3. Botflys are still not rapists but the xenomorph is a rapist.

I insist that inserting a sexual organ into an open wound is rape, despite this being a broader definition of rape than the FBI's definition. I suggest that they only omitted it because they hadn't watched Crash and hadn't thought of it. I don't think this is controversial.

I insist that botflys are not rapists. I don't think this is controversial either.

I am aware of no evidence that the xenomorph's ovipositor as depicted in Alien 1 is anything other than an ordinary insect-like ovipositor.

From those premises I am forced to conclude that the xenomorph as depicted in Alien 1 is not a rapist, and the movie is in fact about parasitism. This the clear and obvious meaning that I saw when I watched the movie. I acknowledge that there is a hidden metaphorical meaning, but metaphors are not reality. You cannot be convicted of metaphorical rape, and if you accuse somebody of rape when in fact they only did something which is a metaphor for rape then you are committing libel. If you disagree with any of these premises then please make it clear which.

[Almaz]

Option #5: This is an entirely unnecessary and squicky argument that drags down all of the parties involved for merely being near it.

Seriously. Are you _seriously_ having this discussion? Masturbating to Giger porn would be more productive. Literally.

[Pulsewidth]

You could search and replace all the words people consider "squicky" with different words and still argue about consistent logical definitions

[nockermensch]

Option #5: This is an entirely unnecessary and squicky argument that drags down all of the parties involved for merely being near it.

Seriously. Are you _seriously_ having this discussion? Masturbating to Giger porn would be more productive. Literally.

Protip: Do what Prak said.

[Username17]

Option #6: Pulsewidth goes on ignore and he does not come off. He had a chance to come to terms with the fact that he lost the argument when the bullshit minutiae he quoted did not support him, and he refused. There is no more discussion to be had with him on this or any other subject.

-Username17

[Pulsewidth]

You haven't stated what you specifically disagree with, but I'll assume you consider it mandatory that the first episode of a series is examined in the context of sequels as soon as such sequels exist. This is the most charitable interpretation, because it's the only one that doesn't involve you believing something evil or crazy.

[DSMatticus]

I've gotta have one last go at it. Spoilered response then ignore.

I acknowledge that there is a hidden metaphorical meaning, but metaphors are not reality.

Do... do you know what a metaphor is? If someone (yes, even an alien; yes, even a parasite; yes, even an alien parasite) grabs your head and shoves ding-dong down your throat, that's not a rape metaphor. If someone grabs your head and shoves anything down your throat, that's probably actual rape. The things that would not be rape in that situation are considerably less than the number of things that would be, in practice.

Rape is not defined in the context of reproduction, because that is backwards as fuck and comes from an era when women were treated as objects and commodities whose value stemmed from purity and servility and rape ruined them. And you are genuinely disgusting and offensive (hopefully merely misguidedly so) for using this as inspiration for your operating definitions, and that is why everyone is calling you fucking terrible and putting you on ignore.

Modern rape is defined in the context of violation and coercion, and how sexual that violation has to be is hard to define (if you restrained someone and did non-penetrative BDSM at them, that's pretty much fucking rape). Botflies certainly creep people the fuck out and give them a sense of violation, and you might even be able to make a case for botflies being rape-y but it's a stretch. If someone locked you in a room with a botfly swarm for the purposes of having them do their thing and make you feel violated, that sounds a fuckton like rape. Not because it's part of the boyfly's reproductive cycle, but because it's an act of explicit and overt violation.

But we aren't even to the point of quibbling over whether botflies are tiny little rapists, or whether maliciously subjecting someone to a botfly horde's reproductive cycle would be rape - we're talking about an organism that physically restrains people and shoves alien schlong in their mouth. That clears any and all hurdles. It is extreme physical coercion used to perform an act of a sexual nature.

Your actual argument is "here is another parasite. It does not violently latch itself onto people's faces and mouthfuck them. You probably wouldn't call it a rapist. Therefore, because they are both parasites, you cannot call this other parasite which does violently latch itself onto people's faces and mouthfuck them a rapist." Seriously. That is it. And it is terrible. I don't know how you even thought it would work, and unsurprisingly it doesn't.

Now, I'm gonna jump on the "ignore pulsewidth" bandwagon, at least for a little bit. You can obviously respond if you want, but I'm not going to read it, and you should probably go ahead and spoiler it to spare those who haven't tossed you on ignore.

[Pulsewidth]

Your actual argument is "here is another parasite. It does not violently latch itself onto people's faces and mouthfuck them. You probably wouldn't call it a rapist. Therefore, because they are both parasites, you cannot call this other parasite which does violently latch itself onto people's faces and mouthfuck them a rapist." Seriously. That is it. And it is terrible. I don't know how you even thought it would work, and unsurprisingly it doesn't.

Using the evidence available from Alien 1, which is what we were originally talking about, and rejecting the supposed special status of the mouth, which I personally reject and AFAIK everybody in this thread rejects, the only difference is size. Size is not relevant to rape in any way, and you accept far more disturbing implications if you claim it is. The botfly is not a rapist so the Alien 1 xenomorph is not a rapist.

I accept a broader definition of rape than both the FBI and the British government. I consistently claim rape is horrifying. I refuse to harm actual real life rape victims by diluting the word so it becomes meaningless. But because I'm not willing to accept crazy post-modern beliefs about metaphors this apparently this makes me the bad guy. I see I am right to have a very low opinion of metaphors.

[Ed]

I signed up for an account (after being directed by a friend of mine to the tire fire that is the Shadowrun thread) solely to applaud one of the more terrifying tangents I have ever seen on a forum.

You people are my kind of psychotic asylum escapees.

[Whipstitch]

Pfft, I hold that my reaction isn't particularly crazy. I mean, we literally have some assclown claiming that a fictional work is not about something because it only broaches the topic through the use of metaphor. That is some high order sperg right there.

[Ed]

I did mean more the sperglording, true.

The only way to solve this is violence, I fear. Ovipositors at dawn.

[Saxony]

I signed up for an account (after being directed by a friend of mine to the tire fire that is the Shadowrun thread) solely to applaud one of the more terrifying tangents I have ever seen on a forum.

You people are my kind of psychotic asylum escapees.

Welcome to this forum. We have some less dignified moments. Stay for the analysis and don't pay too much attention to the frothing incoherent rage.

[Ed]

I came for the rage.

And that 176-page Shadowrun monstrosity because I'd never seen the entire Lorne Coleman thread. What a work. Highs! Lows! Trolls. Lots of trolls. Holy shit, lots of trolls. But it also explained to me why a friend of mine was so amazed that his company didn't even get a chance in the Shadowrun licensing bid (because he couldn't). I am now enlightened.








And then ovipositors.

[nockermensch]

I came for the rage.

Go suck a barrel of ovopositors.

[Maxus]

Well, given that middle-aged women were -horrified- by the chestburster scene in Alien, and they explicitly wanted the xenomorph to "look like something that would fuck you and then kill you" and the facehugger implanted the embryo down the esophagus for the explicit design resign of squicking out men for the homosexual overtones, and it was done to a male character to just get -everyone-

I think we can conclude that the intended emotional response was "ew, raaape!" and that the xenomorphs are a bunch of rape monsters. If not some of the original rape monsters.

Fucking Alien, giving us all that tentacle porn.

[Prak]

I will point out that Lambert was literally raped in Alien. The xenomorph drones were originally drawn up with torso length phalluses (I can only imagine the reason for the removal was one part ratings board shitting their collective pants, one part the ridiculousness of such an image). While the onscreen portrayal of the act was removed or never shot, the act is implied to happen off screen, with the xenomorph's tail trailing up Lambert's leg before a cut away, and when the camera returns to the scene Lambert's bloody bare leg hangs down. Lambert's actress has said in interviews that the character was in fact raped. The entire theme of rape was always intentional, and it wasn't just supposed to be metaphorical or just in overtones. From Ash trying to suffocate Ripley with a rolled up porn mag because he doesn't have his own penis being an android (spoilers!), to the oral rape of facehuggers depositing their eggs. Further, the xenomorph always took on attributes of the host it hatched from, Scott has even discussed that the xenomorph took on the desires of Kane and commented that the alien looked like "a man in a suit, but then it would be, wouldn't it? It takes on elements of the host – in this case, a man."

So, in short, Pulsewidth can suck a barrel of xenomorph gigaphalluses because he is completely wrong in every single way about the Alien franchise.

...fuck now I want to watch the Alien trilogy.

[erik]

...fuck now I want to watch the Alien trilogy.