A monk thing

[AndreiChekov]

I made this class for a regular 3.5 game. Wondering if anyone has any recommendations or criticism for it. http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Fire_Dance ... e_Class%29

[Maxus]

Needs a lot of clarification of mechanics. What grade of Fire Elemental on Firestorm, for example? What's the recharge rate, if any, on the breath weapon?

Also, you're entering this class at level 9. These are not level 9+ appropriate powers. Being able to bypass a little bit of Fire Resistance is not something worth getting excited about at level 17.

If your essential shtick is setting things on fire, then, by damn, you need to set things on fire, regardless of what those things are.

Check out some of the abilities here: The Fire Mage. Notice how one of the VERY FIRST THINGS they get is the ability to bypass the ever-common Fire Resistance?

Yeah.

Anyway. Some of the Fire Dancer stuff is odd. Bits of skin falling off? I mean, sure, nice Pokemon Reference, but why the hell are they NOT leaving behind a wall of fire effect when they tumble/dance around the battlefield?

That limit to manifesting your flames a day likewise needs to be taken out back, patted kindly on the head, and then shot. It's seriously not that much damage at your level. A rogue and a Ring of Invisibility would be doing that much damage, and more, all day, every day. Fire resistance/immunity is also, as I've said before, REALLY COMMON.

It's got some ideas. I won't say they're really -great- ideas, and it's written without the benefit of context: What is this character supposed to be able to fight against at what level. Start looking at the monsters from CR 9-18. Is there ANYTHING that a Fire Dancer would even really make worry? Even Gelugons would bitchslap you, because Fire Subtype gives cold vulnerability, and they can take a bigger asskicking.

[AndreiChekov]

Needs a lot of clarification of mechanics. What grade of Fire Elemental on Firestorm, for example? What's the recharge rate, if any, on the breath weapon?

Also, you're entering this class at level 9. These are not level 9+ appropriate powers. Being able to bypass a little bit of Fire Resistance is not something worth getting excited about at level 17.

If your essential shtick is setting things on fire, then, by damn, you need to set things on fire, regardless of what those things are.

Check out some of the abilities here: The Fire Mage. Notice how one of the VERY FIRST THINGS they get is the ability to bypass the ever-common Fire Resistance?

Yeah.

Anyway. Some of the Fire Dancer stuff is odd. Bits of skin falling off? I mean, sure, nice Pokemon Reference, but why the hell are they NOT leaving behind a wall of fire effect when they tumble/dance around the battlefield?

That limit to manifesting your flames a day likewise needs to be taken out back, patted kindly on the head, and then shot. It's seriously not that much damage at your level. A rogue and a Ring of Invisibility would be doing that much damage, and more, all day, every day. Fire resistance/immunity is also, as I've said before, REALLY COMMON.

It's got some ideas. I won't say they're really -great- ideas, and it's written without the benefit of context: What is this character supposed to be able to fight against at what level. Start looking at the monsters from CR 9-18. Is there ANYTHING that a Fire Dancer would even really make worry? Even Gelugons would bitchslap you, because Fire Subtype gives cold vulnerability, and they can take a bigger asskicking.

I'm a bit too tired to really go into all of this right now, but this is exactly what I was hoping someone would say. Thank you very much.

[Parthenon]

Are you deliberately trying to make this shitty? Because if so you've succeeded beyond any shadow of a doubt.

First of all, the requirements: you are chucking away a skill and forcing them to take Endurance, Lightning Reflexes and Iron Will. You've already taken every single feat so far meaning they have no choice, and they are also pretty shitty feats. And then they've shown that they care about the Will save, why give the class a bad will save? Just to piss on them while they're down?

You could make the requirement one that is thematic like: "Has lost more than 3/4 of their health in one hit from Fire damage." Or a feat that actually does something other than improve numbers.

---

Then, lets look at the terrible class abilities.

First, the spellcasting. You've made it based on Charisma. Fuck that shit.

If you really want to make this a Monk PrC with spellcasting based on Charisma, then make one of the required feats the one that changes the Monk's AC and abilities to be based on Charisma. Otherwise you are screwing them over horribly.

Then, the spells themselves. At this level the Wizard gets Cloudkill, Teleport, Wall of Force and Overland Flight. Whereas the Firedancer gets Dancing Lights.

What. The. Fuck?

Fucking give it to them At Will as a flavour ability if you really want them to have it. Give them Swift cast spells that they can add on to their current tactics. Or level appropriate ones that they will give up their attacks to use. Because all of these are shitty spells they won't care about.

---

Urgh, lets look at the rest...

So, they can add their FD level in d6 fire damage to attacks. Except it burns off all their clothes and possibly magic items. Why are you screwing over the PC again?

Then the Cha to AC. Which is +1 until level 4. Remind me why you limit it again? And the dancing bit makes no sense. Without really trying they can very easily get a more than +20 bonus to Dance at level 10, and so on average get a +5 to AC. But it is really badly described. What action is it to do the Dance check? Immediate or what? Do they make the perform check before the attack is rolled, or after the attack but before the damage is rolled?

I have no idea how it works. You could make it something that uses an Immediate action but you can use after the FD knows an attack will hit to try and evade it. Or an at will thing to have a variable AC for every attack (don't do this) Or you could make it a Swift action but increase the AC until they stop dancing. But it needs explaining more.

And then Firemind is horribly explained- does it do damage to the enemy caster? How much? Why not use 10 + 1/2 hitdice + Cha rather than FD levels?

Urgh, I give up.

---

If you want a Charisma based monk that is based on fire, then make the abilities more like:

My Sex is on FIRE!: The Fire Dancer is on fire. All the time. The more they move, and the better they dance, the hotter and wilder it is, but even when they are asleep they are covered in St Elmo's Fire. This can be dangerous- they cannot wear even Light armour or the Fire Dancer will burn themselves alive.

The Fire Dancer gains +1d6 Fire damage to all unarmed strikes and grapples, always gives off light like a bright torch and gets Fire Resistance equal to their skill rank in Dance. If they dance however...

With a Swift action they can start or continue dancing in a wild manner that causes their fire to burn brightly, adds 1/4 of their Dance bonus to AC, gives them immunity to all mind-affecting spells, but most importantly every single time they make an unarmed attack they make a burst of flame that does 1d6 per FD level to everyone in a 5ft burst- including the Fire Dancer.

[AndreiChekov]

I have updated it based on the suggestions and criticisms.

It is now a wisdom based caster. Fire dance is more interesting.
Firestorm is now defined properly.
And a bunch of other stuff

[Parthenon]

You know what- I actually liked the idea of making it a charisma based monk- it fits into the perform skill and is possibly more thematic than wisdom. There are two feats that swap all the Monk Wisdom based bonuses to Intelligence based bonuses. If you made up a feat that did the same thing but for Charisma and had that as the required feat rather than Endurance it would be pretty cool.

---

Anyway, back to the spells. They're still shitty. Look, at the time you get spells, you are 8th level and even the Sorcerer has 4th level spells. But the Fire Dancer get either a 0th, 1st, or 4th level spell. Why would they cast anything except Fear?

The spells need more than just grabbing all the [Fire] spells. How about ones that buff the FD, fill the targets with energy, are non-direct explosions/fires, or burn away impurities. But, they get little to none that directly attack the enemy (which also means they worry less about bad save DCs). So, they get to cast Remove Curse by burning away the curse, but they don't throw Fireballs at the enemy from range.

Oh, and have it so that all the spells only have a Somatic component but they can't apply Still Spell.

So, the level 1 spells would be:
Displacement, Daylight, Haste, Heroism, Fire Trap, Wall of Fire, Invisibility Purge, Remove Curse, Remove Disease.

You may want to cut two out, but this gives them a range of options that they would actually care about and they are still mostly hitting things.

---

Hmmm... fire based monk abilities- the ones I can think of are:

• Every unarmed strike there is a small explosion.
• Every unarmed strike sets the target on fire for 1-2 rounds. While the enemy is on fire they take fire damage and the monk gets bonuses/extra attacks against them.
• They get a constant effect Fire Shield.
• Can walk on lava and later on dance on top of fire.
• Immune to all poisons, diseases and curses, and gains spell resistance. (burns away anything inside their body that is damaging them, and burns away any magic trying to affect them)
• Can scry through any fire and see out of any other.

[AndreiChekov]

Dancing Lights has to stay. I don't expect anyone to want to cast it, but it fits the flavor of the class really well.

Why should the spells only have somatic components?

I intend to keep expanding fire dance, but I would like to tie each fire dance technique in with a pokemon move. Because I like pokemon, not because that has anything to do with the flavour of the class, so that might take me a while.

The Lava Cookies sort of do what you suggest with the poison, disease and curse thing. Perhaps I could change that and make it so that consuming a Lava Cookie gives you a 1 hour buff. Immunity to all diseases, poisons, and curses, and gain spell resistance. Consuming them also removing all diseases, poisons, and curses. That way you spread the benefit around the party as necessary. Perhaps a Lava Cookie every morning that disintegrates after 24 hours? Or maybe, meditating for an hour grants 1 Lava Cookie, that 4 at max?

[Cynic]

Not really a critique as I'm running late but you should fix your url tag. It leads to a dead page unless you actually search for fire dancer on the wiki.

[AndreiChekov]

Not really a critique as I'm running late but you should fix your url tag. It leads to a dead page unless you actually search for fire dancer on the wiki.

will fix that right now. thank you

[AndreiChekov]

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Dancer
I added that variant to the monk class rather than adding a feat.
Because flurry of blows makes me think of hookers.

[Maxus]

Because flurry of blows makes me think of hookers.

Andrei, I have heard all sorta of horrible things about monks. All sorts of names and things to call them, snide comments.

"Flurry of Blows makes me think of hookers" is by far my favorite.

Welcome to the Gaming Den. Try to keep your hair from standing on end and judge something by the quality of its thought and not by the tone.

I also feel obliged to tell you that www.dandwiki.com isn't that great. Well. It seems to have been stable recently, but Green Dragon, the owner, used to just flip his shit and start crapping all over conversations and banning/suspending people for stuff they'd said months ago. And then reban them for further offenses, often per-word, after a couple of days, while they'd been banned.

He's not a terribly impressive person once you know him, and ignores his own rules when he's feeling pissy. I call him the seagull--he'd fly in, squawk a lot, crap over every thing, and then leave. I suppose that's -sorta- the MO of a Green Dragon, though...

Anyway, I commend your attention to www.dnd-wiki.org. Much of the same content, less likely to get rando feedback to the tune of "lol set self on fire so OP delete it not worth saving", and an infinitely more sane and reasonable administration. It's entirely up to you, of course, but there's the breaks and fair warning given.

[Parthenon]

Why is Dancing Lights so important?

If you really, really want Dancing Lights as a FD option, then you have two options:

• Give the FD level 0 spells which include Dancing Lights.
• Give the FD Dancing Lights as a spell-like ability at will or a number of times a day.

Otherwise you are insulting the player.

The somatic thing is because they are Fire Dancers who use their Perform: Dance skill. They have to dance in weird exotic ways to perform magic, but if they do that then they can't pull out components.

For the Lava Cookies, I'd suggest that during the 15 minutes a day they spend getting spells ready, they have to do a dance on an open fire and doing this drops a Lava Cookie.

Remember that the pokemon moves include the monk ones like Meditate, Calm Mind, Zen Headbutt, as well as all the Dance ones (Dragon Dance, Fiery Dance, Lunar, Quiver, Swords, Petal, Rain, Feather, Teeter).

---

Why not just give the FD Remove Curse etc as spells? The thing is, every single turn they spend casting Dancing Lights is one where they are just as useful as a Gnome Commoner 1. Every single turn they spend casting Burning Hands they are less useful than a Sorcerer 5. Every single turn they spend casting Fear they are less useful than the party Wizard casting Fear.

These spells are a waste of their time and they should not be casting them.

But if they get Displacement they are a better Monk. If they cast Invisibility Purge they can help fight invisible rogues or whatever while doing their Monk thing. If you give them Swift action self-buffs then that makes them better Monks and can fit that into their melee fighting.

EDIT: Why the fucking fuck did you make the Dancer's Flurry of Blows based use Perform:Dance checks instead of attack rolls? At level 1, you can have +11 to Dance checks compared to a +5 bonus to attack. By level 10 your Dance bonus is probably 20 greater than your attack bonus. And adding Charisma to damage? Seriously, what the fuck?

[AndreiChekov]

I am now working on digging through every spell in PHB to find good monk helping spells.
If I increase the number of spells available at each level of spell, then how is Dancing Lights an insult? Its just something that is there. The reason I want that on the spell list is because the FD is a dancing light...

Half perform check then? I did perform check and charisma damage because they are dancing about their enemies. I think it makes sense for flavour. What about a perform check using only your ranks in it, and no other modifiers?

[Parthenon]

Any way of doing the perform check as an attack roll is bullshit. It both ignores bonuses (situational, item, etc) as well as penalties (shaken, morale, etc). Using just the skill ranks is both too good at lower levels when it is much higher than otherwise possible, and too shit at higher levels when it is much lower than it should be. If it is a special attack (e.g. Diamond Mind maneuver) then that's fine but not for every attack.

I mean, I don't even know why you bother- just have the Dancer Monk variant remove the alignment, replace the Wisdom dependancy with Charisma (e.g. like Carmendine Monk) and leave it be. It looks like change for the sake of change otherwise. It's supposed to be a variant, not a blatant power boost.

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As to why Dancing Lights is an insult... imagine a Wizard prestige class where the fluff is that they study the body and are good at transmutation- especially transforming bodies and healing people. To aid this, some spells are added to the Wizard spell list including Cure Minor Wounds as a 4th level spell. Cure Minor heals 1hp. As a 4th level spell it is an insult.

Similarly, Dancing Lights is a 0th level cantrip. As an 8th level option that is supposed to compete with Fear it is an insult. Burning Hands is as well, but to a lesser extent.

If you cannot see why giving them a shitty ability while saying that it is a usable ability is a bad idea, then I don't know what to say.

[Sunwitch]

If dancing lights is supposed to be so "thematic" anyway, you seriously want him going around treating his fireworks as second nature; he should really just be able to activate and deactivate it as a free-action SLA. That's FAR more thematic than expecting players to gimp themselves to go around looking pretty.

[Maxus]

True. It makes it something intrinsic and inherent to the character's powers.

Which, you know, is awesome

[AndreiChekov]

After looking through the PHB for spells, this is what I came up with for spells

Adding a Cantrip section each usable at will.
Dancing Lights, Daze, Flare, Light, and Resistance.

Level 1
Air Walk, Freedom of Movement, Greater Magic Fang, and See Invisibility

Level 2
Scrying, Spell Resistance, True Seeing, and Bigby's Interposing Hand

Level 3
Mislead, Control Water, Tenser's Transformation, and Mass Eagle's Splendor

Level 4
Control Weather, Greater Scrying, Otto's Irresistable Dance, and Iron Body

Also, some new techniques for Fire Dance.
Dragon Dance: You gain Frightful Presence as a dragon of your CR. Also, you get +2 bonus to attack and damage rolls. Active while you are dancing.
Quiver Dance: As long as you are dancing you get +2 to Will saves, Spell resistance = to HD, and +10 to your move speed.
Fire Spin: You can dance on top of flames.
Flame Charge: Whenever you charge and use your flame attack, your move speed increases by +10 for 10 minutes. Each instance of this stacks, but each new instance of it lasts for the time of the first one. I will work on that wording.
Agility: As long as you are dancing you get +6 to your dexterity
Flamethrower: Your flame attack has a range increment of 10 ft.
Blast Burn: Make 2 flame attacks against everything you can reach. You can't use your flame attack next round.
Eruption: You die and explode in lava, fire and smoke, dealing as much damage as a volcano (that one is my favourite)
Lava Plume: The ground underneath you becomes lava. Each round you concentrate it expands 5ft.

[Kaelik]

Be sure to specify Arcane or Divine, so we know how artificers and Chameleons are going to go about poaching FoM, True Seeing, Control Weather, and Irresistible Dance.