Prestige Classes

[KauTZ]

I know 3.5 is essentially dead and gone for the most part, but something has been bugging me for the last while.

How the hell are prestige classes supposed to work?

Or more importantly, how the hell should they be balanced?

Some prestige classes don't work, like MT or whatever the hell WotC shat out in whatever splat book, but some prestige classes are so ridiculously powerful or are just so damn good that they make staying as a wizard 20 a joke. (Master Specialist)

So how exactly should prestige classes be set up? How should they (not) change the RNG, and how the hell should increased caster level-ing work? Full makes it seem pointless to not take unless you have to set fire to a couple of feats, but then why the fug would you take the class then?

Also, can someone link the Frank post on Nifty where he makes like 50 thousand prestige classes, all for different races?

That could prove.. useful for seeing what prestige classes that aren't retarded should probably be like.

[SunTzuWarmaster]

It is very simple, actually:

A prestige class should provide additional options that are in line with the desired flavor instead of the options that are granted by staying in whatever class you were in before taking the prestige class.

For instance, a prestige class that is taken by a level 10 wizard should offer increased spellcasting and a power option that is roughly equivalent to a bonus metamagic feat (or several options that add up to the utility gained therein).

I am personally against the idea of "paying" to get into a PrC by obtaining feats that detract from character survivability (see: Archmage, Loremaster), and against the idea of PrCs that are worth more by staying in the base class (see: Horizon Walker).

[JonSetanta]

On that line of thought, I wonder how much more powerful or less all PrCs would be if NONE of them required feats or focus in skills.

Instead, it would be a level requirement, maybe one class archetype (warrior = good BAB, caster = caster levels, expert = total amount of skill points), a racial, maybe a sex, and for some instances to find and train with a certain organization or school.
And that would be all.

No feats lost to "Skill Focus: Knowledge (Arcana)" or "Endurance".
No skill points lost to "Craft: Mudpies" or "Profession: Trapbait".

[SunTzuWarmaster]

I kind of liked the way it was presented in 2nd ed., at least to me (I never took a PrC as a wizard).

My brother was a Weaponmaster, he lost the ability to use a shield and heavy armor, but gained the ability to fight with two weapons at no penalty (iterative attacks were rare in 2nd. ed.). That seemed like a good trade to me, and was determined primarily by flavor reasons (fighting with two weapons is cooler than one!).

Another character became an Assassin, who gained combat abilities (poison use) at the cost of skill abilities (pick pocket, tumble, hide, move silently).

Each of them trained for 1 month with an expert (who charged a fee, of course), became indoctrinated into the order/mentality, and went on their merry way (paying dues to the Weaponmasters and Assassins instead of the Men At Arms and Thieves Guild, respectively).

That being said, I am perfectly fine with requirements. They should be just something that you would do anyways. If you are going to be an alienist, then you'd better damn well have max ranks in Knowledge(the planes), and if you are going to be a Illusion Weaver, then you must have one of the following: Spell Focus(illusion), max ranks in Profession(illusionary sculpter), or the Agent of the Quasi-Real feat. These should be things that you would do anyways, like how the Thaumaturgist requires Spell Focus(Conjuration), not how the Shadowdancer requires Mobility. The shadowdancers should never need +4 to AoO AC because they tumble to avoid them.

edit: Yes, whenever I have a caster that uses illusions regularly, I usually take some sort of art-based skill to show the DM that 'yes, I can correctly visualize a graphic, 3-dimension babau death while on fire obscured in smoke enough to make them have to make the save'. That and it is fun to say you can accurately model illusions after people.

[Absentminded_Wizard]

The only problem with 2e kits was that you had to pick your kit at 1st level. There was no room for change in mid-career, just like with a number of other things pre 3e.

[JonSetanta]

But the thing that kits got right was that attaining a kit changed options, not giving a (possibly) powerful class combo at the expense of vital class function basics.

[Aycarus]

1203649683[/unixtime]]But the thing that kits got right was that attaining a kit changed options, not giving a (possibly) powerful class combo at the expense of vital class function basics.

Though, most kits were garbage and really gave you nothing. And then a few granted abilities that were absurdly out of line (gallant bard anyone?) But inevitably they didn't do a whole lot other than add a bit of flavour to your character that could have been achieved through a bit of imagination.

[KauTZ]

I know Frank had at least two ways to not design a prestige class.

Pay now for awesome later, and pay later for awesome now.

So obviously any form of caster-level withholding doesn't work. But how else can you make a "caster" prestige class that isn't an obvious choice or take or no-take?

The one way to see it, is that a level 20 wizard is the best damn wizard in the world, while a level 15 wizard/5 archmage (or whatever) has some awesome tricks up his sleeve at the cost of... what though?

Honestly it's mostly just caster prestige classes that are so damn confusing to balance.

[SphereOfFeetMan]

But how else can you make a "caster" prestige class that isn't an obvious choice or take or no-take?

The one way to see it, is that a level 20 wizard is the best damn wizard in the world, while a level 15 wizard/5 archmage (or whatever) has some awesome tricks up his sleeve at the cost of... what though?

Honestly it's mostly just caster prestige classes that are so damn confusing to balance.

Wizards, Sorcerers, and Clerics give up next to nothing to get a prestige class. That is not a fault with the prestige classes however, that is a fault with the base classes. If they had some minor class abilities to give up in favor of other prestige class abilities, then it would be more palatable.

The other choice is to say "the hell with it" and just view the default Wizard, Sorcerer, and Cleric as a slightly inferior chassis. You then can allow all full progression spellcasting prc's which give additional minor bonuses. This is the easiest way, and fine in most cases. You just have to get over the fact that a Sorcerer 20 just has no class abilities (besides spellcasting), and is not worth considering past level 5 or so.

[Voss]

Of course, finding a prestige class for a sorcerer thats
1- actually worth taking (ie, full spellcasting through all levels)
and
2- you can actually qualify for
is really damn hard.

[SphereOfFeetMan]

Of course, finding a prestige class for a sorcerer thats
1- actually worth taking (ie, full spellcasting through all levels)
and
2- you can actually qualify for
is really damn hard.

Oh, I wouldn't say that.

Took almost a full minute to find that list.

[Absentminded_Wizard]

Also, can someone link the Frank post on Nifty where he makes like 50 thousand prestige classes, all for different races?

Forgot to respond to this the first time. IIRC, Frank never carried out the full concept. I think he only made a few for the succubus before abandoning the huge project.

I did manage to find the succubus PrC thread, though.

[Koumei]

Dude, that thread has more than just a couple of Succubus ones. It has a whole bunch of random ones for requested monster races.

[SunTzuWarmaster]

Yea, the problem with caster prestige classes is that the base class doesn't offer anything. So, designing a caster prestige class requires that you give some sort of bonus. Those bonuses come at the cost of giving up things you care about (feats). It evens out eventually, it just happens to kill your character right now.

[Koumei]

Another alternative is to have it provide certain spellcasting limitations as part of the deal - "You are the Master Wall Mage. You gain (bonuses related to creating wall effects, mists, fogs and spiky ground). On the other hand, you cannot summon living creatures or cast damaging spells that are not AoE damage-over-time spells. Suck it up."

Sure, that one still sounds like a good deal, but at least there is some trade-off and you notice it as a flavour change - it actually does make you different, and focused.

It's fairly easy to come up with basic guidelines there: "The Angry Bastard gains bonuses to damage spells and curse-type effects, but may never cast a beneficial spell on anyone, ever. Including himself."

[Maxus]

1203685444[/unixtime]]Another alternative is to have it provide certain spellcasting limitations as part of the deal - "You are the Master Wall Mage. You gain (bonuses related to creating wall effects, mists, fogs and spiky ground). On the other hand, you cannot summon living creatures or cast damaging spells that are not AoE damage-over-time spells. Suck it up."

Sure, that one still sounds like a good deal, but at least there is some trade-off and you notice it as a flavour change - it actually does make you different, and focused.

It's fairly easy to come up with basic guidelines there: "The Angry Bastard gains bonuses to damage spells and curse-type effects, but may never cast a beneficial spell on anyone, ever. Including himself."

Funnily enough, I was thinking the same thing recently. It's a tempting idea...

[Voss]

1203666232[/unixtime]]

Of course, finding a prestige class for a sorcerer thats
1- actually worth taking (ie, full spellcasting through all levels)
and
2- you can actually qualify for
is really damn hard.

Oh, I wouldn't say that.

Took almost a full minute to find that list.

Check into a lot of those. I don't know about all of them, but a lot of that shit, including, the alienist, fiendblooded (which is insultingly ironic, since its supposedly designed for sorcerers), and many others require you to fulfill skill requirements that you can't actually fill until 12th or 13th level as crossclass skills. (Knowledge Planes is crossclass) That sucks ass.

Fatespinner can't be accessed until 8th due to the requirements, and a lot of those mention right out that you have to blow levels in other classes (turn undead and sneak attack requirements). Others, like the heartwarder, are pretty good, but you have to blow 4 feats, 3 of which (dodge, mobility and exotic weapon prof:whip) are completely useless for a sorcerer.

Wild mage can be accessed at 6th, but damn. I'd just as soon not fuck with my caster level, thanks.

Oh, and then there is the Frost Mage, which has a requirement that can't actually be fulfilled. Spending 24 hours in a blizzard unprotected, using the rules as presented in Its Cold Outside, has a 100% chance of killing any wizard or sorcerer unless you handwave it in some fashion.

I don't really want to take the time and do it, but I suspect less than a third of that list is viable for a full casting sorcerer, unless you want to stay and dick around in the class until at least 8th level (fatespinner) or 12th/13 for most of them (alienist, fiendblooded). And even then you're blowing your insulting amount of skill points and feats just to qualify for the PrC. Which is wacky, since the flavor text for the class tells you that sorcerers know magic so innately they don't have to spend a lot of time studying. So what the fuck are these dumb bastards doing? They get less than wizard does, and they have ~16 hours in a day that they aren't using at all!

[KauTZ]

The "your good at this, but suck at that" idea seems too filled with problems to work well for some reason.

It works, but you might get weird situations happening because some things are much more awesome then others.

For example, a prestige class that gives you abeloth-eqsue spell-like abilities at the cost of anything is totally ridiculous.

And since, like everyone has already said, most caster's don't have class abilities, the only way to actually take something away is to screw with their caster level, which has yet to actually work on any level.

[Jacob_Orlove]

Taking away caster levels is garbage. Here are some much better alternatives:

1) Give up some spell slots (the Archmage solution)
2) give up the ability to use some magic items (eg Wands). This is more of a 2e thing.
3) random stat penalties! -2 to Cha, -4 to Wis, whatever.
4) random skill penalties. -4 to spot/listen, -4 to bluff, etc.
5) no good saves!
6) as mentioned, give up certain kinds of spells
7) give up your 2 free spells/level as a wizard
8) fixed new spells that you learn as a sorcerer
9) caster level penalties when casting from/outside specific schools (eg -2 to conjuration, or -2 to all non-evocation)
10) saving throw penalties when casting from/outside specific schools

Stuff like that.

[Voss]

9 is about the only one of those that I can stomach.

The Shadow Adept model is pretty good, because it isn't as narrow and metagamey as the schools, and it gives a meaningful flavor and focus- you eschew dramatic/explosive magic for subtle and sneaky magic. At least in theory, of course.

Of course, with the feats involved you're getting a lot for a little, with some fairly arbitrary requirements.

[KauTZ]

1 needs to be expanded on more. Trading a single spell slot away for an appropriate ability ala archmage seems super lame.

But halting # of spells per day has a nice ring to it. Your caster level still goes up, so your still being level appropriate, and hopefully you're throwing out enough spells already that you won't miss the ones you normally would have gotten. Plus your getting some kind of ability that's worth it from the prestige class.

3/4 seem too hit and miss. What if they already don't care about cha, the loss just makes them not care even more. Plus I can imagine certain DM's being assholes about that. "You have 6 cha! EVERYONE HATES YOU!!"

5 made me laugh. I don't know why. Not in a mean way, a funny way.

9/10 are just the flip side of what the class would already give. You rock at X, but suck balls at Y.

I'm really liking the loss of spells per day or equivalent for some reason. Is there some secret I'm missing that make it actually a horrible choice?

Voss, can you explain the Shadow Adept model a bit better? Crystal Keep's 2 level preview shows no answers.

[CatharzGodfoot]

Shadow Adept is a super front-loaded PrC that gives you three good feats at its first level and then mediocre abilities thereafter. A 1-level dip is a no-brainer if you're that kind of wizard, but the other levels are pretty much a toss-up.

[Voss]

In theory you focus on enchantment, illusion and necromancy at a cost of transmutation and evocation. Mechanically it doesn't do so well, since the later abilities are a bit random. save bonuses against your spells, a shield-like effect, darkvision and a project image type ability.

Catharz is right, its largely mediocre, but its better than being a straight sorcerer, and you can actually qualify for the PrC.

[Jacob_Orlove]

That wasn't meant to be a complete list, just a bunch of possible negatives to pair with useful PrC features. Obviously, you'd have to weigh both the power and the relevance of each based on what ability you want it to compensate for.

#1 could easily be more extreme than a single spell slot. You could give up one slot of each level, a la Focused Specialist, or forfeit your bonus spells from a high int/cha, a la those terrible Specialist options from UA, or whatever.

[Voss]

That just makes it worse, however. Focused specialist is an exception, since you're trading spell slots for more spell slots... you aren't really giving anything up but a certain amount of flexibility, which depending on how you choose your spells, isn't even a lot.

But giving up multiple spell slots is bad. Very few prestige class powers match the power of individual spells, let alone multiple spells.