I'm far more interested in hearing about this actually, than the review itself. What things are those, that tabletop RPG's could learn from WoW, or MMO's in general?DragonChild wrote: RPGs honestly do have a lot to learn from WoW.
if people want to talk about stuff you could take from WoW and use WELL, however, that'd be different.
OSSR: World of Warcraft RPG
Moderator: Moderators
Re: OSSR: World of Warcraft RPG
What I find wrong w/ 4th edition: "I want to stab dragons the size of a small keep with skin like supple adamantine and command over time and space to death with my longsword in head to head combat, but I want to be totally within realistic capabilities of a real human being!" --Caedrus mocking 4rries
"the thing about being Mister Cavern [DM], you don't blame players for how they play. That's like blaming the weather. Weather just is. You adapt to it. -Ancient History
"the thing about being Mister Cavern [DM], you don't blame players for how they play. That's like blaming the weather. Weather just is. You adapt to it. -Ancient History
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DragonChild
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Sorry about being pushy, I just know these discussions get dumb, fast...
While a Blademaster is likely in one of the side books, the class description in its last paragraph specifically says that Horde gladiators are called Blademasters, despite the fact that this mess of a class doesn't represent that at all.icyshadowlord wrote:Dragon, I believe you got the Gladiator mixed up with the Blademaster there, and I think the latter might be in a setting-related splatbook somewhere.
This probably deserves its own thread, but I'll write up a bit on this before the next post.I'm far more interested in hearing about this actually, than the review itself. What things are those, that tabletop RPG's could learn from WoW, or MMO's in general?
Last edited by DragonChild on Tue Aug 20, 2013 1:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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DragonChild
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Chapter 5: Skills
This chapter has skills of which my browsing found absolutely nothing to comment on. You may, as a bonus, insert whatever commentary you’d like into this space instead.
Chapter 6: Feats
All the 3.5 PHB feats are here, as far as I can tell. I will be commenting on new ones and noteworthy changes. Each feat has a little icon that’s a WOW ability (like you’d put on your hotbar) next to it. This is cool and flavorful and I like it.
As a note, there are some “Shout Feats” that are defined at the beginning of the caster to last rounds equal to half your level, and you get 1 shout per day per shout feat, and shouting is a free action. This is really confusingly put.
Bash: Requiring BAB +4 and power attack, you can take a “full attack action” with a bludgeoning weapon, and “if the attack hits” you roll damage but deal none and the target has to make a Fort save DC 10 + damage rolled or be stunned for one round. You can only use it once per round, and no more than 1/level/day. It is a pretty fucking awesome feat but I have no idea if I can make multiple attacks during a bash or what. Terrible wording.
Battle Language: You can use aid another at up to 30 feet, if the other character has this feat and you make a DC 15 bluff check. Wow amazingly awful.
Battle Shout: I’m just going to quote this in full. “When you deliver a Battle Shout, you and all allies within 30 feet gain a +2 morale bonus on damage rolls”. Notice how goddamn confusing this is with all the shout information located at the beginning of this chapter.
Block Spell: As a 5th level caster, you can make a Spellcraft check (dc 15 + spell level) against a spell targeting you to be allowed to counterspell it as a free action. With other counterspell stuff, this is pretty amazing.
Bloodletter: When you melee crit a dude, they take 2 points of damage a round. Not bad, but not great.
Brilliant Leadership: You need to be a spellcaster with Leadership, and all of your followers who are spellcasters gets extra spell slots if it’s two levels lower than the highest level spell you can cast. This is… a thing? I guess?
Careful Strike: You can spend a move action to gain +4 to attack and damage against a guy until the start of your next round. Not bad at level 1 but as soon as you get a second attack you will hate yourself for taking it.
Challenging Shout: Enemies adjacent to you need to make a will save or it can’t make melee attacks against your allies. Pretty decent considering it lasts for a few rounds, although you need high Cha to have a good DC. You can presumably have two people challenging shout at a guy and prevent him from making melee attacks at all.
Close Shot: No AoOs for bow shootin in melee. Nice feat.
Collective Fury: If you have leadership, intimidating shout, and rage, all characters within 30 feet of you get the intimidating shout feat until you’re done raging, but only if they, too, are raging.
Counterattack: If the opponent you have Dodge against makes an attack against you and misses, you get an AoO on them at a -4 penalty, to a limit of 1/round. You also have to “apply the effects from both attacks simultaneously”. Despite the fact that the other guy MISSED, so, what effects?
Crafty Leader: When at least three other people help you crafting, each assistant gives you +4 to craft instead of +2. This is pretty awful and weird and RNG breaking.
Deflect Arrows: I just want to point out that the icon for Deflect Arrows are a bunch of arrows hitting a shield (the footman blocking icon from WC3) but you have to have a hand free to use it.
Deflect Spell: Requiring five other feats and caster level 9, this is at the end of whatever counterspell tree it’s on. When you counter a spell, you choose a new target for it and cast it on your enemies if you give up an equal or greater level spellslot.
Defend: When you use a shield, adjacent allies get a +1 shield bonus to AC if they don’t have a shield, and a +1 circumstance bonus to AC if they do. I don’t know why it has to be that confusing.
Delay Malfunction: When a tech device malfunctions, you can make a craft check to delay the malfunction for 1d43 rounds. We’ll see more about this later…
Demoralizing Shout: Scream and give enemies a -2 to damage! Eeeeh.
Drums of Courage: This is a really weird choice for a feat. You need to make a DC 20 perform check and allies within 30 ft get +2 morale to attack and damage and saving throws vs charm and feat. It’s a standard action to use and lasts 5 rounds + length of playing, but it’s not a bad thing to do to start up a fight or have a follower do.
Emergency Repair: As a full round action, you make a craft check to fix a malfunctioning or broken device for 1 hour, after which it breaks for real.
Enduring Leadership: This requires endurance and leadership to take, and 1/day you give your followers +4 to init and +10 ft speed for a couple rounds. Not worth it.
Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Thorium Weapons With this, you can wield THORIUM WEAPONS if you are otherwise proficient in them. You get an additional one-half your strength to damage with them. Feel the underwhelming. Feeeeel it.
Expert Rider: +2 to Ride checks, and you can take 10 on Ride checks for mounted combat maneuvers. But not all the time because that would be clearly overpowered.
Firearm Knack: You get +2 craft when making guns, +2 “technological limit” (this shit doesn’t come up until chapter 11 and I do not care enough to read ahead) and +1 hit with guns you make.
Follower of the totem: As a level 8 tauren or orc, 1/day you get a +2 sacred bonus to one stat for a few turns. Yawn.
Furious Charge: You get +2 damage when charging, and get a free shout at the end of a charge without using a shout/day, but it only lasts one round. Also if you use a hero point (yes I know I haven’t mentioned these before – fucking deal with it) you get +4 attack and damage instead. If you want to be a charger (and why wouldn’t you?) this is a pretty swell feat if you were taking any shouts.
Inner Rage: When you rage, you get a free shout at half duration. Potentially useful.
Intimidating Shout: A shout with a will save to debate that makes people shaken. A hero point makes it a 1d6 round panic, however, which is pretty damn swell.
Magic Energy Control: You prepare spells in half normal time and get a +1 to will save. That’s… what? What? How is this a feat???
Mighty Lungs: You get two more shouts per day! I… would not ever take this, really.
Mirror Spell: This requires the awful magic energy control, and is a metamagic feat that duplicates a spell and takes up a slot that’s twice the original level +1. Nope!
Pistol Whip: You can use a firearm as a club. Why does this exist as a feat.
Precision Leadership: If a bunch of your followers attack the same target with ranged weapons, add the damage together before applying damage reduction and they all get +1 damage for each other follower attacking. This is fucking insane. What the fuck. Why would you print this?!
Pulverise: This is a feat that requires BAB +6 and another feat that requires character level +8. To keep all of our tauren mages, you understand. If you crit with a tauren totem weapon, all creatures adjacent to the enemy you crit take 1d6 + half your strength damage. And yeah you hit allies, too.
Punishing Blow: You get +1d6 sneak attack with a specific weapon, and this requires BAB +4. Pretty nice of a feat.
Rapid Reload: Despite the fact that there is a different rapid reload feat for guns, the icon for this is a pouch of bullets.
Reckless Attack: Take a penalty to AC and add the same number of damage, up to your BAB. If you’re using a two handed weapon, add twice the penalty to damage. It can’t be used with a light weapon, but a mounted character still gets to multiply this sweet, sweet damage.
Reflect Spell: When you counterspell a spell, you can reflect it back on its caster for free. Just prepare to waste a ton of feats on worthless shit to get this.
Ride Bareback: You don’t take a penalty when riding bareback, and get +1 to ride checks. Another WHY THE FUCK IS THIS A FEAT?
Scavenge Materials: Tech items you make only cost 1/10th market value if you up the crafting DC by 10.
Siege Weapon Knack: You get +2 to crafting to make siege weapons, +2 to disable them, and +2 technology limit for making them. What a bizarre, specific feat.
Skilled: Choose two skills. Get +2 to both. They did this, thank god.
Small Device Knack: The usual +2 to craft and +2 tech limit for tiny, diminutive, or fine devices, and you can make concealed devices with a spot DC of 10+ your ranks in craft to spot, which means… most people will easily spot them.
Sniper Shot: BAB +4, full round action with a ranged attack, get x1.5 range increment and +1d6 damage. Why would you ever take this.
Spirited Charge: This is just a reminder that this thing TOTALLY EXISTS.
Storm Bolt: This lets you use bash with a ranged bludgeoning weapon, and +1 Bash / day.
Thunderous Blow: Once per day one of your normal melee attacks makes a thunderclap spell. You can take it again to get more uses per day.
Toughness: This is still only +3 HP here, because the warcraft god hates you.
Trick Shot: You take a -2 to attack and damage, to bounce attacks off of smooth surfaces to hit targets 10 feet from that surface, ignoring cover. Awful. Just awful.
Triumphant Yell: You have to be level 6, and when you drop a foe you can shout for free at half duration.
Vehicle Knack: Why the ufck aren’t all these feats some kind of FOCUS selectable thing I give up.
Vehicle Proficiency: You choose ONE type of vehicle – land, water, or air – and don’t take a -4 when piloting them. Sigh at way too specificness.
War Stomp: For str 19 tauren, you can take a standard action and all medium or smaller creatures than you within 10 feet make a Balance check (DC 10 + your str mod) or fall prone. Actually pretty good because honestly, who puts points into balance?
Chapter Whatever: Dragonchild finds hero points
I thought I had skipped these when speed reading, but no, they’re on page 359 in chapter 18. You get one if you suck the DM’s dick, and it says you might not ever get one. You can spend one to get +20 to a d20 roll, and if your roll would have worked anyway, you get some awesome effect. You can also use them to make an interrupt action, +20 AC, +20 to a spell DC, basically just WIN at something.
This chapter has skills of which my browsing found absolutely nothing to comment on. You may, as a bonus, insert whatever commentary you’d like into this space instead.
Chapter 6: Feats
All the 3.5 PHB feats are here, as far as I can tell. I will be commenting on new ones and noteworthy changes. Each feat has a little icon that’s a WOW ability (like you’d put on your hotbar) next to it. This is cool and flavorful and I like it.
As a note, there are some “Shout Feats” that are defined at the beginning of the caster to last rounds equal to half your level, and you get 1 shout per day per shout feat, and shouting is a free action. This is really confusingly put.
Bash: Requiring BAB +4 and power attack, you can take a “full attack action” with a bludgeoning weapon, and “if the attack hits” you roll damage but deal none and the target has to make a Fort save DC 10 + damage rolled or be stunned for one round. You can only use it once per round, and no more than 1/level/day. It is a pretty fucking awesome feat but I have no idea if I can make multiple attacks during a bash or what. Terrible wording.
Battle Language: You can use aid another at up to 30 feet, if the other character has this feat and you make a DC 15 bluff check. Wow amazingly awful.
Battle Shout: I’m just going to quote this in full. “When you deliver a Battle Shout, you and all allies within 30 feet gain a +2 morale bonus on damage rolls”. Notice how goddamn confusing this is with all the shout information located at the beginning of this chapter.
Block Spell: As a 5th level caster, you can make a Spellcraft check (dc 15 + spell level) against a spell targeting you to be allowed to counterspell it as a free action. With other counterspell stuff, this is pretty amazing.
Bloodletter: When you melee crit a dude, they take 2 points of damage a round. Not bad, but not great.
Brilliant Leadership: You need to be a spellcaster with Leadership, and all of your followers who are spellcasters gets extra spell slots if it’s two levels lower than the highest level spell you can cast. This is… a thing? I guess?
Careful Strike: You can spend a move action to gain +4 to attack and damage against a guy until the start of your next round. Not bad at level 1 but as soon as you get a second attack you will hate yourself for taking it.
Challenging Shout: Enemies adjacent to you need to make a will save or it can’t make melee attacks against your allies. Pretty decent considering it lasts for a few rounds, although you need high Cha to have a good DC. You can presumably have two people challenging shout at a guy and prevent him from making melee attacks at all.
Close Shot: No AoOs for bow shootin in melee. Nice feat.
Collective Fury: If you have leadership, intimidating shout, and rage, all characters within 30 feet of you get the intimidating shout feat until you’re done raging, but only if they, too, are raging.
Counterattack: If the opponent you have Dodge against makes an attack against you and misses, you get an AoO on them at a -4 penalty, to a limit of 1/round. You also have to “apply the effects from both attacks simultaneously”. Despite the fact that the other guy MISSED, so, what effects?
Crafty Leader: When at least three other people help you crafting, each assistant gives you +4 to craft instead of +2. This is pretty awful and weird and RNG breaking.
Deflect Arrows: I just want to point out that the icon for Deflect Arrows are a bunch of arrows hitting a shield (the footman blocking icon from WC3) but you have to have a hand free to use it.
Deflect Spell: Requiring five other feats and caster level 9, this is at the end of whatever counterspell tree it’s on. When you counter a spell, you choose a new target for it and cast it on your enemies if you give up an equal or greater level spellslot.
Defend: When you use a shield, adjacent allies get a +1 shield bonus to AC if they don’t have a shield, and a +1 circumstance bonus to AC if they do. I don’t know why it has to be that confusing.
Delay Malfunction: When a tech device malfunctions, you can make a craft check to delay the malfunction for 1d43 rounds. We’ll see more about this later…
Demoralizing Shout: Scream and give enemies a -2 to damage! Eeeeh.
Drums of Courage: This is a really weird choice for a feat. You need to make a DC 20 perform check and allies within 30 ft get +2 morale to attack and damage and saving throws vs charm and feat. It’s a standard action to use and lasts 5 rounds + length of playing, but it’s not a bad thing to do to start up a fight or have a follower do.
Emergency Repair: As a full round action, you make a craft check to fix a malfunctioning or broken device for 1 hour, after which it breaks for real.
Enduring Leadership: This requires endurance and leadership to take, and 1/day you give your followers +4 to init and +10 ft speed for a couple rounds. Not worth it.
Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Thorium Weapons With this, you can wield THORIUM WEAPONS if you are otherwise proficient in them. You get an additional one-half your strength to damage with them. Feel the underwhelming. Feeeeel it.
Expert Rider: +2 to Ride checks, and you can take 10 on Ride checks for mounted combat maneuvers. But not all the time because that would be clearly overpowered.
Firearm Knack: You get +2 craft when making guns, +2 “technological limit” (this shit doesn’t come up until chapter 11 and I do not care enough to read ahead) and +1 hit with guns you make.
Follower of the totem: As a level 8 tauren or orc, 1/day you get a +2 sacred bonus to one stat for a few turns. Yawn.
Furious Charge: You get +2 damage when charging, and get a free shout at the end of a charge without using a shout/day, but it only lasts one round. Also if you use a hero point (yes I know I haven’t mentioned these before – fucking deal with it) you get +4 attack and damage instead. If you want to be a charger (and why wouldn’t you?) this is a pretty swell feat if you were taking any shouts.
Inner Rage: When you rage, you get a free shout at half duration. Potentially useful.
Intimidating Shout: A shout with a will save to debate that makes people shaken. A hero point makes it a 1d6 round panic, however, which is pretty damn swell.
Magic Energy Control: You prepare spells in half normal time and get a +1 to will save. That’s… what? What? How is this a feat???
Mighty Lungs: You get two more shouts per day! I… would not ever take this, really.
Mirror Spell: This requires the awful magic energy control, and is a metamagic feat that duplicates a spell and takes up a slot that’s twice the original level +1. Nope!
Pistol Whip: You can use a firearm as a club. Why does this exist as a feat.
Precision Leadership: If a bunch of your followers attack the same target with ranged weapons, add the damage together before applying damage reduction and they all get +1 damage for each other follower attacking. This is fucking insane. What the fuck. Why would you print this?!
Pulverise: This is a feat that requires BAB +6 and another feat that requires character level +8. To keep all of our tauren mages, you understand. If you crit with a tauren totem weapon, all creatures adjacent to the enemy you crit take 1d6 + half your strength damage. And yeah you hit allies, too.
Punishing Blow: You get +1d6 sneak attack with a specific weapon, and this requires BAB +4. Pretty nice of a feat.
Rapid Reload: Despite the fact that there is a different rapid reload feat for guns, the icon for this is a pouch of bullets.
Reckless Attack: Take a penalty to AC and add the same number of damage, up to your BAB. If you’re using a two handed weapon, add twice the penalty to damage. It can’t be used with a light weapon, but a mounted character still gets to multiply this sweet, sweet damage.
Reflect Spell: When you counterspell a spell, you can reflect it back on its caster for free. Just prepare to waste a ton of feats on worthless shit to get this.
Ride Bareback: You don’t take a penalty when riding bareback, and get +1 to ride checks. Another WHY THE FUCK IS THIS A FEAT?
Scavenge Materials: Tech items you make only cost 1/10th market value if you up the crafting DC by 10.
Siege Weapon Knack: You get +2 to crafting to make siege weapons, +2 to disable them, and +2 technology limit for making them. What a bizarre, specific feat.
Skilled: Choose two skills. Get +2 to both. They did this, thank god.
Small Device Knack: The usual +2 to craft and +2 tech limit for tiny, diminutive, or fine devices, and you can make concealed devices with a spot DC of 10+ your ranks in craft to spot, which means… most people will easily spot them.
Sniper Shot: BAB +4, full round action with a ranged attack, get x1.5 range increment and +1d6 damage. Why would you ever take this.
Spirited Charge: This is just a reminder that this thing TOTALLY EXISTS.
Storm Bolt: This lets you use bash with a ranged bludgeoning weapon, and +1 Bash / day.
Thunderous Blow: Once per day one of your normal melee attacks makes a thunderclap spell. You can take it again to get more uses per day.
Toughness: This is still only +3 HP here, because the warcraft god hates you.
Trick Shot: You take a -2 to attack and damage, to bounce attacks off of smooth surfaces to hit targets 10 feet from that surface, ignoring cover. Awful. Just awful.
Triumphant Yell: You have to be level 6, and when you drop a foe you can shout for free at half duration.
Vehicle Knack: Why the ufck aren’t all these feats some kind of FOCUS selectable thing I give up.
Vehicle Proficiency: You choose ONE type of vehicle – land, water, or air – and don’t take a -4 when piloting them. Sigh at way too specificness.
War Stomp: For str 19 tauren, you can take a standard action and all medium or smaller creatures than you within 10 feet make a Balance check (DC 10 + your str mod) or fall prone. Actually pretty good because honestly, who puts points into balance?
Chapter Whatever: Dragonchild finds hero points
I thought I had skipped these when speed reading, but no, they’re on page 359 in chapter 18. You get one if you suck the DM’s dick, and it says you might not ever get one. You can spend one to get +20 to a d20 roll, and if your roll would have worked anyway, you get some awesome effect. You can also use them to make an interrupt action, +20 AC, +20 to a spell DC, basically just WIN at something.
It's cool how scavenge materials breaks WBL right out of the gate. That's talent.
Vebyast wrote:Here's a fun target for Major Creation: hydrazine. One casting every six seconds at CL9 gives you a bit more than 40 liters per second, which is comparable to the flow rates of some small, but serious, rocket engines. Six items running at full blast through a well-engineered engine will put you, and something like 50 tons of cargo, into space. Alternatively, if you thrust sideways, you will briefly be a fireball screaming across the sky at mach 14 before you melt from atmospheric friction.
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Username17
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I had a friend who tried to get us to play Warcraft D&D. I couldn't figure out a single reason I would want to do that over playing in a generic D&D world or even Greyhawk. We humored him for a while, but the fact seems to be that the Warcraft world seems to revolve around hedging out the player characters from doing anything interesting, so the degree to which it is different from a generic D&D world is all bad.
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DragonChild
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I'm not so sure that's true about the Warcraft world, or at least any worse than any other setting. There is quite a lot to do, especially as you have a pretty wide range of history to choose from. But I can see how some people wouldn't be into it, but I find the setting really neat, myself.
I'm going to wrap up with spells, do a "How well can you make this WoW character in this system?", and talk about what WoW design does right as soon as I can.
I'm going to wrap up with spells, do a "How well can you make this WoW character in this system?", and talk about what WoW design does right as soon as I can.
Most MMORPGs have the problem where the world is in stasis and nothing is actually allowed to change - until the devs release some special event that moves the story forward. Even then, the story usually moves forward on its own or by NPCs, and it just unlocks new dungeons and raid bosses for the PCs to tackle, they don't actually interact with it and make things happen.
Imagine if, when Lord British (or whatever his name is) was killed in Ultima 8, that was actually kept as legit and the players then had to deal with anarchy and a struggle for claiming the throne and an actual PC ended up climbing to the top (only to be deposed the next time they left the keyboard). That would have been cool, and I'd like to see a MMORPG actually let the players dictate the story. Instead, they were banned and the whole event retconned.
So any tabletop game based on a MMORPG is going to be afflicted by the same problems - if the players are actually allowed to make a difference, it's no longer the game world they're used to. This is even assuming the players have abilities that are beyond the scope of an MMORPG (such as things that change the layout of the actual area or involve asking the MC questions).
That said, I can totally see people liking certain WoW elements for a tabletop game: playable undead, trolls and beastmen right out the door at level one (granted, this game didn't deliver very well on that), necromancers and demon summoners as base classes right out the door at level one (to some extent), the explosive-tech-tinkering that goblins and gnomes do, etc.
But you don't need the WoW world for those things, and even if you wanted those... this game doesn't really deliver.
Imagine if, when Lord British (or whatever his name is) was killed in Ultima 8, that was actually kept as legit and the players then had to deal with anarchy and a struggle for claiming the throne and an actual PC ended up climbing to the top (only to be deposed the next time they left the keyboard). That would have been cool, and I'd like to see a MMORPG actually let the players dictate the story. Instead, they were banned and the whole event retconned.
So any tabletop game based on a MMORPG is going to be afflicted by the same problems - if the players are actually allowed to make a difference, it's no longer the game world they're used to. This is even assuming the players have abilities that are beyond the scope of an MMORPG (such as things that change the layout of the actual area or involve asking the MC questions).
That said, I can totally see people liking certain WoW elements for a tabletop game: playable undead, trolls and beastmen right out the door at level one (granted, this game didn't deliver very well on that), necromancers and demon summoners as base classes right out the door at level one (to some extent), the explosive-tech-tinkering that goblins and gnomes do, etc.
But you don't need the WoW world for those things, and even if you wanted those... this game doesn't really deliver.
Count Arioch the 28th wrote:There is NOTHING better than lesbians. Lesbians make everything better.
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DragonChild
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There's also a lot of elements that are cool to use. If you were playing during Classic WoW, you may have decided to use Baron Rivendare as a major villain - he's got an epic undead citadel, a bunch of named NPCs you can use as his minions, and players will generally know what his deal is. And eventually the PCs will kill him. And... that's ok? You can just move on, and turn your attention to other plots.
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DragonChild
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So let's talk about how well WoW and other Warcraft characters are represented.
In WoW at the time, there were 9 classes, each with 3 different talent trees. Talent trees were trees of abilities you could put points in and unlock new ones as you go, and you could mix and match trees, but couldn't get very far down any of them. When WoW first came out, the talent trees were not at all balanced or well represented. If you wanted to raid or do much of anything as a Shaman, Paladin, or Druid, you were expected to heal despite the fact that those classes had DPS or even Tank trees. That's not the case anymore, luckily.
Druid: Druids get to be Balance (shoot moon lasers, turning into a chicken came in later), Feral (turn into a big bear or a cat and tank or melee) and Restoration (heal people). The druid class ends up feeling like an ugly mish-mash of all three that can't really focus and doesn't fit any. It's likely still playable because hey, full divine caster, but good luck trying to play a Druid of the Claw or any of that.
Hunter: Hunters were Marksman (focus on shooting), Beastmaster (awesome pet), and Survival (in theory, melee, traps, and defenses - in execution, worthlessness). Hunter is a fucking mess. The entire point of the hunter is that you use a bow and have a really sweet fucking cat. There is no really sweet cat in the hunter class, and DRUIDS get a better one. Utterly fucking shameful. Traps aren't represented, a core hunter mechanic, but pretty much everything else is in place, including their stances, called Aspects. If it wasn't for the pet being shitty this would be better, even though the class still sucks ass.
Mages: Mages were just ranged damage dealers that were Fire (hit people with fire), Frost (hit people with frost), and Arcane (hit people with purple). Arcane had the polymorph and teleport kind of stuff as well as energy missiles. Mages are hard to screw up, and they didn't, so woo. Success.
Paladin: In WoW, Paladins were Holy (Healing), Retribution (DPS with two hander), or Protection (tanking). They had short term buffs, auras, and seals/judgements - they could put a debuff on enemies that helped allies ("hit this guy to regain health") and a different one on themselves ("when I hit people I regain health") that stacks. In order to play a healing paladin in WoW, you basically have to be a priest who takes heavy armor proficiency, which... I guess works ok, but could have been better. There's no real tanking mechanic for the paladin either, leading to paladins mostly feeling like some Retribution/Protection hybrid. Which is honestly mostly OK because that's what people generally want out of paladins but could have been better. Auras are really inexplicable uses per day instead of the far simpler always on, and the seals are nowhere to be seen, unless they're in the spell section.
Preist: Holy (healing), Discipline (barriers + healing) and Shadow (damage via DOTs) are the specs of the priest. The priest class is this weird mish-mash that just flat out does not fit the flavor at all, of any priest in WoW ever, largely because it was mostly copied from D&D with random shit thrown in.
Rogues: Rogues were Assassination (knives, stabbing from behind), Combat (swords maces or fists, in practice just swords, fighting from wherever, good defensive options), and Subtlety (make one giant surprise attack on an enemy, then be less good than the others). All rogues also dual-wield. Assassination is pretty well represented, grabbing daggers and TWF and just stabbing a dude in a back is totally viable. Combat is less so, due to two-longswords not being supported at all, and at the time, rogues wanted the biggest, SLOWEST swords they could possibly get, and there being no real defensive options for the rogue. Subtlety is the Assassin class basically, except there's that weird spellcasting and evil-only, which is at least semi-appropriate to the game if not the lore because fucking rogue gankers. Still, not great representation here, especially as you have to take TWF feats, so a rogue is just going to feel like an Assassination rogue.
Shaman: Shamans had Enhancement (weild a giant mace or axe and smash enemies), Elemental (throw lightning bolts at fools), and Restoration (healing). With no martial weapon proficiency Enhancement shamans are going to have to set a feat on fire. Still, their spell list seems to let them be a nice mish-mash of all three shamans at once. Which fits, as honestly Thrall just sort of does everything himself too. Overall the shaman worked for WoW-at-the-time, although since BC, the first expansion, Enhancement shamans became focused on dual-wielding one handed weapons and weaving in free spells in between attacks, and that's just not going to work here at all.
Warrior: In WoW, warriors were split between Arms (big weapon, bleeds), Fury (two weapons, some health regen), and Protection (shield and tanking). The RPG doesn't really have anything to let a warrior tank, or to encourage two weapon fighting, let alone the two sword or two axe style of a fury warrior - in short, warriors are basically just Arms warriors. This is accurate to how most non-tank warriors were in classic, but is still pretty damn boring. The unique shout mechanics of the warriors are represented, but they're lame, and the warrior class kind of just sucks.
Warlock: Warlocks came in Affliction (throw dots on enemies and use lifedraining channeled spells), Destruction (throw big bolts of shadow damage), and Demonology (have a sweeter demon pet). All warlocks got a choice of awesome demon pets to switch between, but demonology's was just better. Warlocks only really get a demon familiar and have to summon more, which fits the flavor up until WoW but doesn't really represent the feeling of the WoW warlock. They also have to be evil pretty fast. So it sorta feels like a warlock but... also doesn't.
This isn't getting into some other big archetypes - Demon Hunters and Death Knights are covered in other books, for instance.
In WoW at the time, there were 9 classes, each with 3 different talent trees. Talent trees were trees of abilities you could put points in and unlock new ones as you go, and you could mix and match trees, but couldn't get very far down any of them. When WoW first came out, the talent trees were not at all balanced or well represented. If you wanted to raid or do much of anything as a Shaman, Paladin, or Druid, you were expected to heal despite the fact that those classes had DPS or even Tank trees. That's not the case anymore, luckily.
Druid: Druids get to be Balance (shoot moon lasers, turning into a chicken came in later), Feral (turn into a big bear or a cat and tank or melee) and Restoration (heal people). The druid class ends up feeling like an ugly mish-mash of all three that can't really focus and doesn't fit any. It's likely still playable because hey, full divine caster, but good luck trying to play a Druid of the Claw or any of that.
Hunter: Hunters were Marksman (focus on shooting), Beastmaster (awesome pet), and Survival (in theory, melee, traps, and defenses - in execution, worthlessness). Hunter is a fucking mess. The entire point of the hunter is that you use a bow and have a really sweet fucking cat. There is no really sweet cat in the hunter class, and DRUIDS get a better one. Utterly fucking shameful. Traps aren't represented, a core hunter mechanic, but pretty much everything else is in place, including their stances, called Aspects. If it wasn't for the pet being shitty this would be better, even though the class still sucks ass.
Mages: Mages were just ranged damage dealers that were Fire (hit people with fire), Frost (hit people with frost), and Arcane (hit people with purple). Arcane had the polymorph and teleport kind of stuff as well as energy missiles. Mages are hard to screw up, and they didn't, so woo. Success.
Paladin: In WoW, Paladins were Holy (Healing), Retribution (DPS with two hander), or Protection (tanking). They had short term buffs, auras, and seals/judgements - they could put a debuff on enemies that helped allies ("hit this guy to regain health") and a different one on themselves ("when I hit people I regain health") that stacks. In order to play a healing paladin in WoW, you basically have to be a priest who takes heavy armor proficiency, which... I guess works ok, but could have been better. There's no real tanking mechanic for the paladin either, leading to paladins mostly feeling like some Retribution/Protection hybrid. Which is honestly mostly OK because that's what people generally want out of paladins but could have been better. Auras are really inexplicable uses per day instead of the far simpler always on, and the seals are nowhere to be seen, unless they're in the spell section.
Preist: Holy (healing), Discipline (barriers + healing) and Shadow (damage via DOTs) are the specs of the priest. The priest class is this weird mish-mash that just flat out does not fit the flavor at all, of any priest in WoW ever, largely because it was mostly copied from D&D with random shit thrown in.
Rogues: Rogues were Assassination (knives, stabbing from behind), Combat (swords maces or fists, in practice just swords, fighting from wherever, good defensive options), and Subtlety (make one giant surprise attack on an enemy, then be less good than the others). All rogues also dual-wield. Assassination is pretty well represented, grabbing daggers and TWF and just stabbing a dude in a back is totally viable. Combat is less so, due to two-longswords not being supported at all, and at the time, rogues wanted the biggest, SLOWEST swords they could possibly get, and there being no real defensive options for the rogue. Subtlety is the Assassin class basically, except there's that weird spellcasting and evil-only, which is at least semi-appropriate to the game if not the lore because fucking rogue gankers. Still, not great representation here, especially as you have to take TWF feats, so a rogue is just going to feel like an Assassination rogue.
Shaman: Shamans had Enhancement (weild a giant mace or axe and smash enemies), Elemental (throw lightning bolts at fools), and Restoration (healing). With no martial weapon proficiency Enhancement shamans are going to have to set a feat on fire. Still, their spell list seems to let them be a nice mish-mash of all three shamans at once. Which fits, as honestly Thrall just sort of does everything himself too. Overall the shaman worked for WoW-at-the-time, although since BC, the first expansion, Enhancement shamans became focused on dual-wielding one handed weapons and weaving in free spells in between attacks, and that's just not going to work here at all.
Warrior: In WoW, warriors were split between Arms (big weapon, bleeds), Fury (two weapons, some health regen), and Protection (shield and tanking). The RPG doesn't really have anything to let a warrior tank, or to encourage two weapon fighting, let alone the two sword or two axe style of a fury warrior - in short, warriors are basically just Arms warriors. This is accurate to how most non-tank warriors were in classic, but is still pretty damn boring. The unique shout mechanics of the warriors are represented, but they're lame, and the warrior class kind of just sucks.
Warlock: Warlocks came in Affliction (throw dots on enemies and use lifedraining channeled spells), Destruction (throw big bolts of shadow damage), and Demonology (have a sweeter demon pet). All warlocks got a choice of awesome demon pets to switch between, but demonology's was just better. Warlocks only really get a demon familiar and have to summon more, which fits the flavor up until WoW but doesn't really represent the feeling of the WoW warlock. They also have to be evil pretty fast. So it sorta feels like a warlock but... also doesn't.
This isn't getting into some other big archetypes - Demon Hunters and Death Knights are covered in other books, for instance.
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DragonChild
- Knight-Baron
- Posts: 583
- Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2008 7:39 am
What I think WoW does right -
Over time, WoW has been pushing for less trap options and false choices. They've slowly phased out any talents that give +x% to damage or crit or whatever, due to the fact that those aren't choices, and they are boring.
They've eventually just decided on the Mists talent system - pick one of three specs. Get a bunch of stuff from that spec, active or passive, as you level. Every 15 levels you get a choice of three abilities, all of which are around the same idea. Examples include "Get a bonus to charge: Less cooldown, twice in a row, or a slow at the end". Or "Get an AOE attack; a whirlwind for a few seconds, a cone that stuns enemies, or a scream that pushes enemies back." These are much more interesting choices, and are easier to balance - if there's a "Increase your damage by 5%" choice, the other two ALSO do that, but they all do it in some unique way that generally requires you to play differently. These sorts of options are something RPGs need, rather than just Weapon Focus as an acceptable feat design.
The WoW designers understand that if you want roles to be filled, you have to provide classes for them. When they realized there weren't enough tanks, they made DKs, and to make sure there wasn't too many DPS, Monks got to be healers and tanks. Good role balance is something RPGs need.
The WoW designers understand that doing the same rotation over and over is boring. They rely heavy on proc mechanics recently, and timing, which while its own repetition is better than the "Spam one attack" a lot of MMOs have. Contextual attacks is something RPGs need.
They do care about making things just cool. Enhancement shamans run around in mail armor, swing two axes with absolutely lightning speed, and throw out lightning bolts and summon ghostly wolves while doing so. That's just fucking awesome. More games need classes and ideas that are just fucking FUN.
Over time, WoW has been pushing for less trap options and false choices. They've slowly phased out any talents that give +x% to damage or crit or whatever, due to the fact that those aren't choices, and they are boring.
They've eventually just decided on the Mists talent system - pick one of three specs. Get a bunch of stuff from that spec, active or passive, as you level. Every 15 levels you get a choice of three abilities, all of which are around the same idea. Examples include "Get a bonus to charge: Less cooldown, twice in a row, or a slow at the end". Or "Get an AOE attack; a whirlwind for a few seconds, a cone that stuns enemies, or a scream that pushes enemies back." These are much more interesting choices, and are easier to balance - if there's a "Increase your damage by 5%" choice, the other two ALSO do that, but they all do it in some unique way that generally requires you to play differently. These sorts of options are something RPGs need, rather than just Weapon Focus as an acceptable feat design.
The WoW designers understand that if you want roles to be filled, you have to provide classes for them. When they realized there weren't enough tanks, they made DKs, and to make sure there wasn't too many DPS, Monks got to be healers and tanks. Good role balance is something RPGs need.
The WoW designers understand that doing the same rotation over and over is boring. They rely heavy on proc mechanics recently, and timing, which while its own repetition is better than the "Spam one attack" a lot of MMOs have. Contextual attacks is something RPGs need.
They do care about making things just cool. Enhancement shamans run around in mail armor, swing two axes with absolutely lightning speed, and throw out lightning bolts and summon ghostly wolves while doing so. That's just fucking awesome. More games need classes and ideas that are just fucking FUN.
The big complaints I've heard from former WoW players had been that the changes to the mechanics were so fundamental it was close to relearning the game, negating their system mastery.
Come see Sprockets & Serials
How do you confuse a barbarian?
Put a greatsword a maul and a greataxe in a room and ask them to take their pick
How do you confuse a barbarian?
Put a greatsword a maul and a greataxe in a room and ask them to take their pick
EXPLOSIVE RUNES!
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DragonChild
- Knight-Baron
- Posts: 583
- Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2008 7:39 am
To me, that's a large part of the appeal. I started playing mid wrath. If the game hadn't changed since then, and just got new content released? I probably would have quit years ago. Instead, there is a constant evolution, not just in story and content, but also in gameplay. I main a Warrior, and the evolution of the playstyle has been a large part of what's kept me coming back. While I don't necessarily agree with every change (I think Arms in cataclysm was just about perfect, and the rotation changes that hit a couple patches back for 5.2 have nearly killed the spec for me), the fact that things are changing is still a plus for me, and if there is something I don't like I can always swap to a different spec or class (I've been working on gearing up a Monk since the 5.2 changes) and wait for another change down the line.virgil wrote:The big complaints I've heard from former WoW players had been that the changes to the mechanics were so fundamental it was close to relearning the game, negating their system mastery.
The rate of change is a very real concern to a lot of players, and the developers try to avoid major changes outside of expansions unless it's game breaking because they recognize that sudden major changes can and do scare players away. But I feel that the constant state of flux is worth it for the overall improvements in gameplay that come about as a result, and the improved balance.
Anyway, on the topic of the WoW RPG, I actually went and looked into this a few months back because someone recommended it to me when I started working on an adaptation of the Warrior class. When I did look into it, I found nothing but disappointment. WoW has its flaws, and certainly has plenty of mechanics and general mindset that has no place in a tabletop RPG; but even despite that the overall WoW design shows a lot of promise that the tabletop sourcebook completely ignores. Honestly, to me it doesn't seem like a WoW RPG; it's just a reskinned D&D 3.0. It's not even an adaptation, it's literally a lazily copied version of 3.5 with some images from WoW thrown in.
Dragon Child's review hits on a lot of the issues, from races getting bonuses that make no sense in Worldcraft, but are traditional in D&D; to Warriors getting nothing but bonus feats. The most ridiculous thing to me was Spell Reflection (A Warrior signature ability since Vanilla) being caster only. But there's plenty of other examples of things that are just plain dumb. It would be one thing to get an adaptation that actually tried, but ultimately fell flat, but this game really was just a case of "Let's reprint the D&D Players Handbook, but with WoW!". Fuck that shit.
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DragonChild
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- Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2008 7:39 am
I'm fairly certain Spell Reflection was only added in BC, and it's not like anybody had that power in WC3 - as such, when this book came out it wasn't even an ability at all. A quick check of WoWpedia seems to back this up.The most ridiculous thing to me was Spell Reflection (A Warrior signature ability since Vanilla) being caster only
I am going to review the spell chapter. There are some real gems of PURE INSANITY in there. Does anyone want me to do some of the other books, which tend to be more WoW-specific with PrCs and monsters?
Last edited by DragonChild on Fri Aug 23, 2013 9:12 pm, edited 2 times in total.
I would like you to. I actually thought most of the same things you did as I have almost all of the books. I think the last faction (?) book I don't have but I haven't looked at them since a few moves ago.DragonChild wrote:I'm fairly certain Spell Reflection was only added in BC, and it's not like anybody had that power in WC3 - as such, when this book came out it wasn't even an ability at all. A quick check of WoWpedia seems to back this up.The most ridiculous thing to me was Spell Reflection (A Warrior signature ability since Vanilla) being caster only
I am going to review the spell chapter. There are some real gems of PURE INSANITY in there. Does anyone want me to do some of the other books, which tend to be more WoW-specific with PrCs and monsters?
That's the complaint of anyone who plays a game to be eleet and then have to spend a time not being so. I play DDO and they've just done a major revamp that is putting loads of people in a tizzy, much like the last one. And in 3 months they'll figure out a bunch of new mad builds and be happily bragging about soloing elite content again.virgil wrote:The big complaints I've heard from former WoW players had been that the changes to the mechanics were so fundamental it was close to relearning the game, negating their system mastery.
The internet gave a voice to the world thus gave definitive proof that the world is mostly full of idiots.