Tome Fighter and Foil Ability

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Cheiromancer
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Tome Fighter and Foil Ability

Post by Cheiromancer »

To address the wizard>fighter balance problem you either have to nerf the wizard or boost the fighter. Nerfing wizards is hard - you can make them less interesting to play, but unless you get rid of every broken combo they are still broken. And so I was really excited to see the Tome Fighter. Even with rewrites to wish and planar binding and polymorph, the Fighter needed some love and this was it. Although the new feats were neat (the 5-featured scaling ones), I thought the really innovative ingredient was Foil Action.

Foil Action, unfortunately, provokes a lot of resistance from gamers - players and DM's alike. I've waded through all kinds of posts where the ability is declared to be simply broken and OP. You have to read through a lot of forum posts here in the den before the design philosophy starts to make sense, and even then it only makes sense in a mechanical, but not a narrative way.

It's not just the fluff of the ability. Sure, it doesn't make sense that someone could throw sand from 60 feet away and disable a beholder. But people will accept all kinds of stuff from marshals and white raven maneuvers and what not that is equally improbable.

I think the reason behind the resistance is twofold. First, Foil Action seems like counter-spelling, and fighters don't counterspell. There is a deeply rooted presupposition in the game that only magic can counter magic. Fighters have mundane class features, hence they cannot directly counter magic. (Aside from saving throws and hit point ablation, etc.) Plus it is a quickened counterspell that doesn't use up spell slots, doesn't require a check, and works not only against spells, but against anything that requires an action. It is much better than any counterspelling a wizard can do, and this runs counter to another deeply held presupposition, namely that anything that can be done by mundane means can be done better with magic. Also, melee cannot have nice things.

Now the great thing about the tomes is that they identify and reject these presuppositions. However I think that more needs to be done to eliminate their lingering traces in otherwise enlightened minds. And so I propose that Foil Action be modified to employ a mechanism that is similar to what is already accepted as appropriate to a mundane class.

Mundane classes can grant actions. Whether you are a marshal granting extra move actions or someone with White Raven tactics, you can give your allies extra actions. You'd think that this means you could deny your opponent actions, but the opposite of haste is not hold monster, but slow. What Foil Action should do is delay an opponents action, not deny it completely. Make it into a full-round action that takes effect just before that opponent's next turn. Give the party a chance to pile on it and kill it before then (or at least force the concentration checks that will result in it probably being disrupted), or get out of range, or to employ effective counter-measures (the cleric casting silence to prevent the Balor's blasphemy from going off, say).

I'd propose something like the following.
Drain Action (Ex): A 9th level Fighter may attempt to monkeywrench any action an opponent is taking. How does he do it? Not by throwing sand in a beholder’s eye, or batting aside a spell component, but somehow he does it.

He can negate a standard attack using Drain Action. If the attack was the first strike of a full-attack, however, the iterative attacks that follow are resolved normally. If a Fighter drains a charge, it is resolved as a movement followed by a standard attack; no charge bonuses apply.

An action that is not an attack or charge can be drained if it takes either a standard, move or swift action to complete. The affected creature may discontinue its action, or else try to complete it during the remainder of the round. If the action is discontinued it is wasted, and any spell slots, limited ability uses, or the like used to power it are expended. If the opponent attempts to complete the action it provokes an attack of opportunity; furthermore, if it receives damage before the beginning of its next turn, it must succeed in a Concentration check (DC 10 + damage dealt) or lose its action without result. If the opponent succeeds in completing the action it takes effect just before its next turn.

A Fighter must be within 30 feet of his opponent to use Drain Action, and must hit with a touch attack or ranged touch attack. Using Drain Action is an Immediate action. At 17th level, Drain Action may be used at a range of up to 60 feet.
The first paragraph just lamp-shades the mechanism by which the ability works. Maybe this is unnecessary. I am also not sure how the ability should interact with attacks. In a full-attack you make your first attack and see how it goes; then you either take a move action or else follow up with iterative attacks. I think that a fighter ought to be able to do something about that first attack, but it didn't seem right to delay it. And to me a slowed down charge should result in a move plus a standard attack. I dunno - the mechanics could probably use some tinkering.

I think a lot of the time Drain Action will work exactly like Foil Action; an opponent will choose to drop the action rather than accept the delay. That's fine- it's the opponent's choice. Some of the time (like when it has no other effective actions) it will accept the delay, and that gives the rest of the party something to do. Which is good - it's like a spellcaster who buffs his party members or controls the battlefield so they can do their thing. A fighter makes a threat manageable and empowers his party members.

tl;dr Foil Action is a great and much needed boost to the fighter, but it would be easier to swallow (and work just as good) if it delayed an action rather than denied it outright.
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Post by Schleiermacher »

This is a lot of complication for very little gain, if any at all. And I don't see why designers ought to cater to narrow-minded, wrong people. Foil Action is not broken as an ability of a 9th+ level PC. It just isn't. (I don't like playing in the paradigm it's designed under, but that's a different matter.) It gets stupid if a lot of 9th level NPC fighters starts showing up, but even then it's probably not broken.

And I don't understand why you think changing the answer to "how does he do it" from "improbable action-hero stunts" to "umm... he just does." makes the ability make more narrative sense.

So I'm against this change.
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Re: Tome Fighter and Foil Ability

Post by virgil »

I think the "fighters cannot have nice things" motivation is a lot more significant compared to the other motivations you've listed. In my experience, 3.X DMs have been moving toward painfully simple combat scenarios & single foe boss fights, both of which favor Foil Action. For the simple fights, being a competent character is X-Box huge; and Tome Fighters are difficult to not be competent, as compared to wizard/cleric players who have a long tradition of screwing up enough to be on par with regular fighters. For the single foe fights, Foil Action is ideal, as duel scenarios are popular.

Foil isn't 100% effective, since it still needs to hit the target's touch AC w/in 30 to 60 feet. The typical DM won't start fights farther than 30-60, use more than one credible threat, use concealment/blink/etc, or even have illusions as simple as mirror image. Their comfort zone is small, and being forced to broaden their tactics ironically makes them feel limited in their choices. Because their typical encounters are simplistic, forcing adaptation shines a harsh light on their limitations.
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Post by Mistborn »

Foil Action has dual problem of having shit-tier fluff on top of an incredibly non-standard "profile" and that's a fucking dealbreaker for people. Fluffwise having the fighter do "something mundane" from 30 to 60 feat away and then the action auto-fails is lame and it makes everything you fight seem lame in comparison.

As for the mechanics people freak out about it for the same reasons the freak out about shivering touch. People are suspicious of it because it has different relevant defenses than any other effect of it's type. Foil action bypasses the saving throw mechanic to potentially lock people out of the game and thus it "feels wrong" to people.
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Post by virgil »

Lord Mistborn wrote:Foil Action has dual problem of having shit-tier fluff on top of an incredibly non-standard "profile" and that's a fucking dealbreaker for people. Fluffwise having the fighter do "something mundane" from 30 to 60 feat away and then the action auto-fails is lame and it makes everything you fight seem lame in comparison.
Meanwhile, a 3'-tall halfling rogue walks up and stabs a 30'-tall man to death with 3"-long knives in less than six seconds. The rogue's brother from Pathfinder then walks up to a different giant, does "something mundane," and suddenly the giant is in a choker hold. One needs to insert some level of unreality in mundane fighters, because the rules inherently assert a certain level of superhuman ability without much in the way of support for how it happens.

Mistborn is one of the other demographics of anti-Foil, where their imagination is so bereft that "something mundane" leaves their head like a bell tower with no bell.
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Post by vagrant »

Having actually run a tome fighter as a PC and an NPC villian I have to say - Foil Action is awesome. You know what else is awesome? A wizard who doesn't think magic consists of purely fireballs. And a rogue who likes throwing giant fucking grenades. And a necromancer who likes to summon armies of undead. And a cleric who-etc. etc. etc.

My fighter wasn't overpowered compared to the rest, he was...just right. Conceptually filling the 'tactical experienced adventurer' niche and a blast to play mechanically. I've shown the tome fighter to my grognard friends who (after a quick reminder that melee is usually shitty, often by demonstration) reluctantly agree that a ranged touch single action denial isn't really fucking gamebreaking and means my fighter can actually fucking contribute!
Then, once you have absorbed the lesson, that your so-called "friends" are nothing but meat sacks flopping around in the fashion of an outgassing corpse, pile all of your dice and pencils and graph-paper in the corner and SET THEM ON FIRE. Weep meaningless tears.

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Post by Mistborn »

virgil wrote:Mistborn is one of the other demographics of anti-Foil, where their imagination is so bereft that "something mundane" leaves their head like a bell tower with no bell.
Go suck a barrel of cocks and then riddle me this Mr. Imagination. A Mind Flayer 30ft away tries to use it's mind blast and then your fighter foils it. Can describe to me how that sequence of events without it being stupid?
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Post by Avoraciopoctules »

"Yo squidface! You are now NOT thinking of magenta elephants!"
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
"Everyone in the cone, remember what I told you about visualizing a wall!"
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
"It's tentacle-wiggling shows me that it's about to mind-blast! I'll bean it with a rock to ruin its concentration!"
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Post by Mistborn »

Those are all incredibly stupid.
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Post by Avoraciopoctules »

Haha, he thinks it's dumb that getting distracted makes it harder to use psychic powers. I couldn't even make this up.
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Post by Ice9 »

There is kind of a fluff problem with Foil - the way it's described, it borders on "Captain Hobo" syndrome, which I'll explain.

Champions/HERO system is effect-based. That means that the strength of a power is determined by what you paid for it, and you can add whatever flavor you want to that. So Kid Saturn can have 12d6 gamma eye beams, and Battle Machine can have a 12d6 artillery barrage, and everyone's happy.

However, then there's Captain Hobo. He buys similar stats to everyone else, and then gives them extremely weak flavor. His attack is hitting people with a bent golf club, and his armor is cardboard boxes wrapped in duct tape. His reason for moving at SPD 5 is "too many energy drinks and vodka". Captain Hobo makes everyone's character lamer just by existing. Now it turns out your gamma eye beams do the same damage as a drunk guy with a golf club. Not very impressive.

Ok, it's rare anyone would actually play Captain Hobo, and if they did so in a non-joke campaign it would probably be vetoed. But the effect does happen to a lesser degree, just from differences in what people think is cool. Adam makes a non-super secret agent that's just that badass, and now Bob's beam of pure destruction has the same effect as a handgun. Not an insurmountable problem, but it does require getting on the same page from the start.

So, back to D&D. Foil Action, with the current fluff, has exactly this problem. You're Beowulf, the Berserker, the force of nature, the monster that destroys armies. And you wind up for the blow that will shatter a mountain ... and then some guy slaps you upside the head, or tosses sand in your face, and you're done, no check, just done. Badass factor ... gone.

If Foil Action was described as being more significant fluff-wise, as some kind of impressive action that looks capable of foiling just about anything, I think that'd be half the battle.

The other half is that level should matter. Two 9th-level characters should not be able to keep a 20th level one reliably stun-locked.
Last edited by Ice9 on Wed Sep 04, 2013 6:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by ...You Lost Me »

Since I have LM on ignore, I'm going to assume he asked for an example of distracting a cthulhu monster (mind flayer?) with foil action.

If that's the case, Avorio's examples all sound pretty damn good and LM is dumb for thinking they're not good. The only case I'd actually make against them is that foil action is a RTA and the first two don't sound like they involve attack rolls at all. I somehow doubt LM actually brought that up of course.
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Post by Avoraciopoctules »

@Ice9

I agree with the 2 problems you've brought up. It would be nice if fighter action denial scaled appropriately with level and included a minimum special effects budget.

@You Lost Me
You're right about the first 2. I'm really stretching the narrative imperative budget allotted by the ability. The fact that an attack roll is required places limitations on the conceptual space you're working in.
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Post by Mistborn »

Avoraciopoctules wrote:I'm really stretching the narrative imperative budget allotted by the ability. The fact that an attack roll is required places limitations on the conceptual space you're working in.
So you yourself admit that 2 out of 3 of the explanations for Foil you came up with were stupid?
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Post by ...You Lost Me »

Dammit man, I take you off ignore for 30 seconds...
You wrote:Those are all incredibly stupid.
You, 20 fucking minutes later wrote:So you yourself admit that 2 out of 3 of the explanations for Foil you came up with were stupid?
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Post by Mistborn »

...You Lost Me wrote:Dammit man, I take you off ignore for 30 seconds.
He gave three examples and only one of them was actually compatable with how foil actually works, I'd say that's a pretty stupid set of examples.

and yes total props to Ice9 echoing what I said earlier. The way Foil is fluffed right now it makes everyone else lamer just by existing, and because the fighter Mr. mundane there is no way to fluff it that's not lame.
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Post by virgil »

...You Lost Me wrote:Dammit man, I take you off ignore for 30 seconds...
You wrote:Those are all incredibly stupid.
You, 20 fucking minutes later wrote:So you yourself admit that 2 out of 3 of the explanations for Foil you came up with were stupid?
Image
Technically, those statements don't contradict each other. I myself refuse to indulge in something as subjective as "does not offend Mistborn."
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Post by Kaelik »

I'm going to have to side with Mistborns general location without specifically condoning anything he has said. Except that everything Avi has ever said is incredibly stupid. I think we can all get behind that.

1) Absolutely fuck no, on Magenta Elephants and Visualizing walls. As mentioned, they do not involve ranged touch attacks. As explained by Ice9, those are just Captain Hoboing the entire game. The idea that Mindflayer Psychic Blasts are as easy to disrupt as making them think about something is extremely fucking insulting. Mindflayers are telepathic, and Int 20, and generally speaking even when they are Mind Blasting they are thinking about like eighteen different things at one time. The idea that they are negated by, get this, the people they are about to attack talking to them, is so fucking insulting that I would punch you in the face.

For added shit, on top of no ranged touch, and Captain Hobo, they run into the perennial stupid fucking mundane problem: It doesn't actually require the fighter. If the fighter is literally just reminding people to visualize walls, or talking to the enemy, there is no fucking reason they can't visualize walls later when he isn't around. That narrative dissonance is bad too.

2) Throw a rock, besides hitting the stupid mundane dissonance problem (so he's taking an immediate action to throw a rock, if only there were some way to concentrate through such a distraction... but no, fuck your concentration skill, you can concentrate through magic missiles that do 5d4+5 damage, but not a rock that does no damage because... My Character Is Really Lucky Guys (MCIRLG)) has another problem: The knowledge problem. There is a way that you can know what something is capable of, and what it is doing, that way is to have the right knowledge skills, and spellcraft skills.

However, most SLAs don't show anything, so if you run into a fucking monster, and it is SLAing, or perhaps, psionically Blasting, it does not give off any sign. So actually, the Fighter has to foil action something where he doesn't actually know what the action is. Maybe his first action that you foil is the mind Blast, maybe it is the quickened Mirror Image SLA. How do you know that? Answer you fucking don't: But you need to make sure your sand throw (or whatever else) works on both of them.

And then of course, you have to explain how you prevent a Beholder from moving with foil action. Good luck with that.
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Post by Avoraciopoctules »

virgil wrote:
Lord Mistborn wrote:Foil Action has dual problem of having shit-tier fluff on top of an incredibly non-standard "profile" and that's a fucking dealbreaker for people. Fluffwise having the fighter do "something mundane" from 30 to 60 feat away and then the action auto-fails is lame and it makes everything you fight seem lame in comparison.
Meanwhile, a 3'-tall halfling rogue walks up and stabs a 30'-tall man to death with 3"-long knives in less than six seconds. The rogue's brother from Pathfinder then walks up to a different giant, does "something mundane," and suddenly the giant is in a choker hold. One needs to insert some level of unreality in mundane fighters, because the rules inherently assert a certain level of superhuman ability without much in the way of support for how it happens.
Mistborn is one of the other demographics of anti-Foil, where their imagination is so bereft that "something mundane" leaves their head like a bell tower with no bell.
Image
Lord Mistborn wrote:Those are all incredibly stupid.
Lord Mistborn wrote:
Avoraciopoctules wrote:I'm really stretching the narrative imperative budget allotted by the ability. The fact that an attack roll is required places limitations on the conceptual space you're working in.
So you yourself admit that 2 out of 3 of the explanations for Foil you came up with were stupid?
Image
Kaelik wrote:I'm going to have to side with Mistborns general location without specifically condoning anything he has said. Except that everything Avi has ever said is incredibly stupid. I think we can all get behind that.
Image
Last edited by Avoraciopoctules on Wed Sep 04, 2013 11:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Cheiromancer »

@Ice9: I love your description of "Captain Hobo syndrome". The moral being, I take it, that it is better to have no fluff than bad fluff. I find a similar moral in the thread about MTP (Magical Tea Party): It is better to have no rules than bad rules. Of course, the best thing to do would be to have good fluff (and good rules) but that isn't always possible.
virgil wrote:Meanwhile, a 3'-tall halfling rogue walks up and stabs a 30'-tall man to death with 3"-long knives in less than six seconds. The rogue's brother from Pathfinder then walks up to a different giant, does "something mundane," and suddenly the giant is in a choker hold. One needs to insert some level of unreality in mundane fighters, because the rules inherently assert a certain level of superhuman ability without much in the way of support for how it happens.
I agree. And consequently I think that to avoid Captain Hobo it would be better to remove all the stuff about throwing sand at the beholder.

I don't have any problem with Foil Action itself. If it makes a DM have to run bigger, more varied encounters, then good! I just thought it would be more palatable (and not significantly weaker) if it were action delay, rather than action denial.
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Post by nockermensch »

Lord Mistborn wrote:
virgil wrote:Mistborn is one of the other demographics of anti-Foil, where their imagination is so bereft that "something mundane" leaves their head like a bell tower with no bell.
Go suck a barrel of cocks and then riddle me this Mr. Imagination. A Mind Flayer 30ft away tries to use it's mind blast and then your fighter foils it. Can describe to me how that sequence of events without it being stupid?
Fighter flicks a peeble, hitting the mindflayer's head in the precise moment the psionic energies are emerging. Mind Blast is ruined.

Anybody else trying to do the same trick lacks the instincts and training of a Fighter 9 and can't hit in the precise instant it takes to ruin special attacks. This doesn't sound strange, for precisely the same reason that you don't grant barbarian rage powers to a non-barbarian that describes freaking out with murderous anger in some combat.
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Post by Mistborn »

nockermensch wrote:Fighter flicks a peeble, hitting the mindflayer's head in the precise moment the psionic energies are emerging. Mind Blast is ruined.
Kaelik wrote:2) Throw a rock, besides hitting the stupid mundane dissonance problem (so he's taking an immediate action to throw a rock, if only there were some way to concentrate through such a distraction... but no, fuck your concentration skill, you can concentrate through magic missiles that do 5d4+5 damage, but not a rock that does no damage because... My Character Is Really Lucky Guys (MCIRLG)) has another problem: The knowledge problem. There is a way that you can know what something is capable of, and what it is doing, that way is to have the right knowledge skills, and spellcraft skills.

However, most SLAs don't show anything, so if you run into a fucking monster, and it is SLAing, or perhaps, psionically Blasting, it does not give off any sign. So actually, the Fighter has to foil action something where he doesn't actually know what the action is. Maybe his first action that you foil is the mind Blast, maybe it is the quickened Mirror Image SLA. How do you know that? Answer you fucking don't: But you need to make sure your sand throw (or whatever else) works on both of them.
Last edited by Mistborn on Wed Sep 04, 2013 8:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by nockermensch »

Lord Mistborn wrote:
nockermensch wrote:Fighter flicks a peeble, hitting the mindflayer's head in the precise moment the psionic energies are emerging. Mind Blast is ruined.
Kaelik wrote:2) Throw a rock, besides hitting the stupid mundane dissonance problem (so he's taking an immediate action to throw a rock, if only there were some way to concentrate through such a distraction... but no, fuck your concentration skill, you can concentrate through magic missiles that do 5d4+5 damage, but not a rock that does no damage because... My Character Is Really Lucky Guys (MCIRLG)) has another problem: The knowledge problem. There is a way that you can know what something is capable of, and what it is doing, that way is to have the right knowledge skills, and spellcraft skills.

However, most SLAs don't show anything, so if you run into a fucking monster, and it is SLAing, or perhaps, psionically Blasting, it does not give off any sign. So actually, the Fighter has to foil action something where he doesn't actually know what the action is. Maybe his first action that you foil is the mind Blast, maybe it is the quickened Mirror Image SLA. How do you know that? Answer you fucking don't: But you need to make sure your sand throw (or whatever else) works on both of them.
Fuck this noise, Misty. If I have +30 Reflex, +50 AC and move 200', nobody bats an eye when Magic Missiles strikes me "unerringly". If a monster has Str 200, nobody finds strange when his chances to push and break a Wall of Force are exactly the same of a Str 2 character (it's zero). D&D is chock-full of Fuck You abilities that historically are all spells. If it rustles your jimmies that people introduce non-magical Fuck Yous to balance the game, you don't allow them in your games and be done with it.

That being said, Kaelik's second point (the knowledge problem) is actually valid, and a GM would be in his rights to tell "the Mind Flayer is casting/invoking something" and let the fighter risks interrupting something trivial. But if he decides to interrupt, whatever the mind flayer was doing will be spoiled.

And for the 2 lvl 9 dudes shutting down a lvl 20 monster, I'd shed a single tear for the poor lvl 20 if one lvl 7 wizard couldn't already cast Solid Fog and fuck with the movement/attacks of any non-caster / non-teleporting lvl 20 creature.
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Post by Mistborn »

nockermensch wrote: Fuck this noise, Misty. If I have +30 Reflex, +50 AC and move 200', nobody bats an eye when Magic Missiles strikes me "unerringly". If a monster has Str 200, nobody finds strange when his chances to push and break a Wall of Force are exactly the same of a Str 2 character (it's zero). D&D is chock-full of Fuck You abilities that historically are all spells.
Oho, it's rare of you to display your butthurt so blatantly nocker. Everyone is fine with magic granting absolute effects because it's magic and I don't have to explain dick. Sadly noone is accepting of you getting to do things "cause I'm da pwotagonist" and rightly so. because like Foil action, it's stupid, DWI
Last edited by Mistborn on Wed Sep 04, 2013 9:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

Frank, I hope you're proud of yourself for your questionable writing decision of going going meme macro-happy ever since you started doing drunken/old school reviews. I blame you for that painfully derivative, hackneyed bullshit that's been infecting threads lately.
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In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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