New Edition: Monsters

[Joy_Division]

I like the distribution on 2d8 much more than I like 3d6. Here's what I was think of today at work.

If you set the basic damage that someone does on a hit to 2d8+Stat+level. Then you give as defense DR equal to another stat + level, things work out pretty nice.

I would say that improving the effect threshold isn't as elegant as simply giving DR in most cases since improving effect threshold (without giving more HP) makes highly damaging attacks mow through opponents much faster even if they have a high defense.


Anyways , for the effect threshold putting it right in the middle at 9 (Damage being modified by DR) gives you the most room to work with as far as stat disparity goes. So with a low stat being 0 and a High stat being 4 (or any other numbers with the same 4 point spread), in the best case your attack effects about 90% of the time and in the worst case effects about 15% of the time.

How many hitpoints should someone have? Well one way to do it would be to ask: What is the probable minimum damage after n attacks. ie After n attacks what's the low end of a 90% confidence interval for my damage. Lets say n = 5 so 90% of the time foes fall in less than 5 attacks. Then the formula:

(Chance to Hit*Chance of Damage D + Chance to Miss)^7=0.1

Will let us find ,(from the distribution of 2d8) the damage that we can expect to be the probable minimum per attack. So if we assume an average 50% chance to hit.

.5*chance of damage D+0.5=0.72 or
chance of damage D = 44% so D is 8(since 2d8 have a 43% chance of getting 8 or lower.)

So then the standard hitpoints should be 7*8 or 56. Approximately.

edit: I show my work because I usually fuck these things up! Solve yourself to be sure!

[Crissa]

I want the combat rules to reflect that it is possible to kill a helpless target.

...And possible to bring in something to save them if gotten to appropriately.

That way I'm not standing around stupidly poking a vampire every other round so he doesn't stand back up, I merely have to wait (or steal his spleen) to make sure he dies.

-Crissa

[Bigode]

1199922917[/unixtime]]I don't think the combat rules should cover killing helpless targets. If someone is out of combat, whether they should die to a dagger in the vitals (or across the neck) is a story issue, not a balance issue. Whether it's possible is independent of how we want normal combats to proceed.

It's not just a story issue - it also determines, among possibly other things, how much a stealth ability is worth.

[Koumei]

1199947751[/unixtime]](or steal his spleen)

LOOT THE BODIES! ...just, don't go overboard.

[Jacob_Orlove]

1199971658[/unixtime]]

1199922917[/unixtime]]I don't think the combat rules should cover killing helpless targets. If someone is out of combat, whether they should die to a dagger in the vitals (or across the neck) is a story issue, not a balance issue. Whether it's possible is independent of how we want normal combats to proceed.

It's not just a story issue - it also determines, among possibly other things, how much a stealth ability is worth.

It helps determine how much a stealth ability is worth outside of combat.

I was speaking specificially to the idea that helpless targets should just die when people feel like killing them (it breaks verisimilitude for a lot of people when you can't cut someone's throat while they sleep). So, if you can sneak into the king's bedroom without waking him or alerting the guards, then what you can do there affects only the story.

If you want any random shmuck to be able to kill the king there, that doesn't mean everyone should be capable of doing massive damage in one round of combat, it just means that you have a rule that says "you can totally kill helpless people outside of combat, for great justice."

[Cielingcat]

I'm fine with that, as long as it takes someone with real skills to actually sneak in past the guards.

[CatharzGodfoot]

The problem with automagically killing 'helpless' targets is you get into the situation where Bilbo walks in on Smaug, hits him with a coup de grace, and that's the end of that story.

Helpless can cover a lot of ground, but in a fantasy story it really only applies to special 'magical' effects. You can have somebody bound to a chair, gagged, and blindfolded. If they can drop Mind Blasts, they're not helpless. If you come across a sleeping fire elemental (ignore the impossibility in D&D for now), you might seriously injure yourself trying to slit its 'throat'.

If you're talking about sleeping humans, maybe you should be able to perform a CDG as an instagib story effect. However, if that human is wearing full plate mail, you might have to get her helmet off first. Assuming that human is completely passed out (so you can get the helmet off without waking her), you still might have trouble killing her apparently unarmored companion when you come up against his blade-ward. Say you try poisoning him instead (a tried and true method of assassination). Well, D&D at least has a method for resolving a poisoning which (depending on the poisonee) may leave the target completely unharmed. Their elf ally is totally out of the question: elves don't sleep.

My point is that a 'CDG vs. helpless' should not be an autokill. There are just too many situations where that kind of logic does not apply in fantasy stories and games.

I would understand a system where an unconscious, unprotected human will certainly die to an attack made by another humanoid with an appropriate weapon. That could be as simple as an automatic 20 on the attack roll and an automatic 1 on the soak roll, depending on how you align the numbers.

[Jacob_Orlove]

If you want to let people kill helpless fire elementals or dragons, that could totally happen. It doesn't have to be a part of the game, but, like I said, it's a story preference issue. You'd probably have to make the equivalent of a Knowledge (whatever) check to figure out how to disrupt the elemental's cohesive energies or something, but if people want a story where you can assassinate anyone, the rules can allow that. They don't have to, but they can.

And yeah, you'd need crazy stealth to get in to the king, and you'd have to deal with whatever magical protections he has up (which would probably function as traps if we have rules for those).

[Falgund]

1199987115[/unixtime]]
I was speaking specificially to the idea that helpless targets should just die when people feel like killing them (it breaks verisimilitude for a lot of people when you can't cut someone's throat while they sleep). So, if you can sneak into the king's bedroom without waking him or alerting the guards, then what you can do there affects only the story.

But should joe schmoe be able to 'just kill' a paralyzed Balor or a sleeping dragon ? Is it level-based ? Inherent-resilience based ? Knowledge-of-weak-point based ?
If the king is a high level adventurer with the same hp/armor of a dragon, but an human, should he really 'just die' ? If your response is yes, this means race matters for preventing 'just-dying'. If no, it means it should be based on level (hit points?save?) and damage done (crit?).

Why not having an attack accessible to everybody, usable on any helpless and critable target, with auto-crit and "Effect: Die", so you just have to beat the effect thresold to win, which will always happen against even-leveled targets due to the critical, and still happen sometimes against higher leveled target ?

[Jacob_Orlove]

Joe Schmoe can totally stab the giant/dragon/whatever to death, but he might need a little bird or a serving girl or a wise old man to tell him exactly what the monster's weak point is. Happens all the time in fairy tales.

[RandomCasualty]

1200001073[/unixtime]]Joe Schmoe can totally stab the giant/dragon/whatever to death, but he might need a little bird or a serving girl or a wise old man to tell him exactly what the monster's weak point is. Happens all the time in fairy tales.

What doesn't happen in fairy tales though is the hero running around carrying the monster and constantly hacking at it until he can figure out how to destroy it.

[SunTzuWarmaster]

There are easy ways to solve it so that it doesn't get crazy with Bilbo CdG'ing the dragon. For instance, +40 to the roll (Power Attack being an option up to your BAB). This is an assured hit, and close to an assured crit (if crits are defined as +10 over the AC). This means that Bilbo the level 2 rogue can only power attack part of it, and might not even hit the crit threshold (Dragon has AC over 30).

Joe Schmoe should totally be able to kill the king (assuming appropriate stealth). At that point, he may as well give the king a poison-acid bath (drown) and negate attacking him at all, but that is stupid.

[Captain_Bleach]

1200002269[/unixtime]]
What doesn't happen in fairy tales though is the hero running around carrying the monster and constantly hacking at it until he can figure out how to destroy it.

This is because D&D is to Fairy Tales as Terry Goodkind is to Fantasy.

[JonSetanta]

1200002269[/unixtime]]

1200001073[/unixtime]]Joe Schmoe can totally stab the giant/dragon/whatever to death, but he might need a little bird or a serving girl or a wise old man to tell him exactly what the monster's weak point is. Happens all the time in fairy tales.

What doesn't happen in fairy tales though is the hero running around carrying the monster and constantly hacking at it until he can figure out how to destroy it.

Counterpoint: Gawain and the Green Knight.

[virgil]

A situation where the insect could be both 'human' and an inhuman thing at the same time would be nifty; sort of like Wolf's Rain and the ambiguity as to what the true form of a wolf is.

[CatharzGodfoot]

1200036940[/unixtime]]...sort of like Wolf's Rain and the ambiguity as to what the true form of a wolf is.

The 'true form' of a wolf in Wolf's Rain was that of a wolf

[virgil]

Except that there didn't seem to be anything overly mystical going on when they were human, they seemed to be both at the same time, and could be virtually indistinguishable from humans amongst the normal humans when they chose to (down to talking, having opposable thumbs, etc).

[CatharzGodfoot]

1200082692[/unixtime]]...having opposable thumbs, etc).

You may recall that when there was some lasting mark, it was that of a wolf's teeth.

[shau]

Counterpoint: Gawain and the Green Knight.

I don't recall Gawain defeating the Green Knight's regeneration ability by slaughtering him every five seconds in that either.

[JonSetanta]

1200085381[/unixtime]]

Counterpoint: Gawain and the Green Knight.

I don't recall Gawain defeating the Green Knight's regeneration ability by slaughtering him every five seconds in that either.

The approach is similar for Gawain and many gamers.

[Koumei]

1200076615[/unixtime]]

1200036940[/unixtime]]...sort of like Wolf's Rain and the ambiguity as to what the true form of a wolf is.

The 'true form' of a wolf in Wolf's Rain was that of a wolf

This is some kind of furry thing, isn't it?

[CatharzGodfoot]

1200100928[/unixtime]]

1200076615[/unixtime]]

1200036940[/unixtime]]...sort of like Wolf's Rain and the ambiguity as to what the true form of a wolf is.

The 'true form' of a wolf in Wolf's Rain was that of a wolf

This is some kind of furry thing, isn't it?

Surprisingly, no. The characters in question always looked like wolves or people, never 'wolf-people'.

Honestly though, if you have a big problem with hybrid form lycanthropes you should not be playing fantasy RPGs.

[Koumei]

I don't. I have a problem with furries (or more correctly, the furry fetish creeps me out a bit and I have a problem with those who shove it in my face, crying about Fursecution when I ask them to stop/tell them to GTFO and go to (furry site)/kill them with fire. For those who like the stuff and don't go out of their way to harass others with it, "whatever floats your boat".)

Now I consider were-creatures to be boring and overused (blame White Wolf and the 8 trillion goth teenagers who watched Underworld and doomed the freeform online gaming community for ever. Between them and the Weeaboo crowd...), but my solution is to not use them, and I'd be surprised if they weren't included in things. They have a definite place.

But the bit where they look like humans but are truly wolves, deep down, that made me raise an eyebrow. I've actually been told by someone that they had the soul of a wolf, that it's what they truly are. I was tempted to offer them a biscuit and see if they'd sit.

Mostly it was a joke, anyway.

Edit: And I had better do this before someone gets annoyed: No-one on this forum, for instance, has gone anywhere near exceeding my comfort-level for furries. It's the actual fucking of plushies/people in fursuits in public (or putting pictures of such on non-fur forums). I could not care less if people want their avatar to have cat ears or be a ninja turtle or anything like that, and if they want to use werewolves, catgirls (weeaboo!) and whatever in their games, more power to them.

[Username17]

White Wolf's handling of lycanthropy is dreadful. But D&D's isn't super bad. You have a disease that turns people into big wolf monsters, and if they nearly kill someone, sometimes that guy becomes a big wolf monster as well. That makes for good stories.

Since we've already got the people who are really fish but look like people and the people who are really imps but look like people, I'm not sure that there is room for people who are really bugs who look like people. Although if it wa something really weird, where they are potential devas who got their souls switched with lowly insects in order to screw them over, that would be different.

-Username17

[JonSetanta]

You forgot to consider the shocking popularity of the Anthropomorphic template in D&D.