The Shadowrun Situation
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- Serious Badass
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Oh absolutely. The ironic thing is that it was the gun enthusiasts - the very people who love Street Samurai and want to wax poetic about how badass they are - who demanded and got the Firearms skill chopped up. They wanted to have lots of different gun skill options, but the result is that it now takes four times as many skill points to get "good at shooting people" and the actual functionality is less.Fucks wrote:Re-introduce the Firearms skill and go for it, then?
It's pretty counterintuitive to a lot of people. But if you collapsed all the different gun skills into "firearms" or even all the weapon skills into "weapons" it would substantially improve gunbunnies. The extra "attention" they get from the skills chapter doesn't give them more functionality, it gives them less. And they pay more build points for the privilege.
Same reason people keep ranting about how overpowered Trolls are, yet somehow Troll characters never really amount to much. Having more physical stats on your character sheet doesn't make there be any more you can do with being big and strong, it just makes being big and strong cost more build points. Splitting clubs and blades into separate skills makes ninja characters have less points left over for B&E skills. Splitting Strength and Body into separate stats makes bruisers have less points left over for social prowess. And so on. The more stats and skills are associated with a field, the more points it costs to be good in that field and the less points people have left over to do other things if they are.
-Username17
- Stahlseele
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Trolls were on the height of their Power in SR3.
It went really downhill from then on.
Under SR3 Rules, they could tank and dish out obscene ammounts of damage. Without the use of magic too.
Of course, that could not stand, and so it changed.
It went really downhill from then on.
Under SR3 Rules, they could tank and dish out obscene ammounts of damage. Without the use of magic too.
Of course, that could not stand, and so it changed.
Welcome, to IronHell.
Shrapnel wrote:TFwiki wrote:Soon is the name of the region in the time-domain (familiar to all marketing departments, and to the moderators and staff of Fun Publications) which sees release of all BotCon news, club exclusives, and other fan desirables. Soon is when then will become now.
Peculiar properties of spacetime ensure that the perception of the magnitude of Soon is fluid and dependent, not on an individual's time-reference, but on spatial and cultural location. A marketer generally perceives Soon as a finite, known, yet unspeakable time-interval; to a fan, the interval appears greater, and may in fact approach the infinite, becoming Never. Once the interval has passed, however, a certain time-lensing effect seems to occur, and the time-interval becomes vanishingly small. We therefore see the strange result that the same fragment of spacetime may be observed, in quick succession, as Soon, Never, and All Too Quickly.
- Ancient History
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- Stahlseele
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Under SR3, due to the prohibitive Points Costs, Trolls simply did not mix well with Magic of any kind . .
Cyber/Bio-Trolls could tote 10 points of armor and enough Body to take a Shotgun Blast to the Face and smile it off and deal enough Damage to slice Vehicles in Part with a glaive though.
If you WERE going for a Troll Adept, you could do seriously unholy things with your natural high STR and killing hands as well. 10D Damage right there. On One Net Hit. Couple it with distance Strike and you are a walking 6m sphere of instant death on an attack because people don't even get to defend against distance strike.
Cyber/Bio-Trolls could tote 10 points of armor and enough Body to take a Shotgun Blast to the Face and smile it off and deal enough Damage to slice Vehicles in Part with a glaive though.
If you WERE going for a Troll Adept, you could do seriously unholy things with your natural high STR and killing hands as well. 10D Damage right there. On One Net Hit. Couple it with distance Strike and you are a walking 6m sphere of instant death on an attack because people don't even get to defend against distance strike.
Welcome, to IronHell.
Shrapnel wrote:TFwiki wrote:Soon is the name of the region in the time-domain (familiar to all marketing departments, and to the moderators and staff of Fun Publications) which sees release of all BotCon news, club exclusives, and other fan desirables. Soon is when then will become now.
Peculiar properties of spacetime ensure that the perception of the magnitude of Soon is fluid and dependent, not on an individual's time-reference, but on spatial and cultural location. A marketer generally perceives Soon as a finite, known, yet unspeakable time-interval; to a fan, the interval appears greater, and may in fact approach the infinite, becoming Never. Once the interval has passed, however, a certain time-lensing effect seems to occur, and the time-interval becomes vanishingly small. We therefore see the strange result that the same fragment of spacetime may be observed, in quick succession, as Soon, Never, and All Too Quickly.
Oh yes, do I know it, I've known its bad before I read the book, before it even came out (just from its previews of "Accuracy/Limits" alone). It's basically like starting over as a lesser 4th edition experience, where all the options of the prior edition gone. Making the game have less fun stuff ye can mess with, and you'll know when those options come out, they'll be worse than their past counterparts.Heisenberg wrote:For the love of gob, and all that is holby, don't play SR5.
I don't think my group knows "why" they continue to play 5th edition in the end. I'm guessing otherwise they feel they want "Mission of the week, or whatever we feel like that session", but want it to feel somewhat different (which is what playing a different character is for?), and/or just initial curiosity to "try it", and haven't seen a reason to back out since. That said, they're not exactly a knowledgeable group when it comes to rulesets (like most RPG groups), so I could be hardpressed to convince them to go back otherwise.
By the Divines yes, when I came in with my Troll PC 1st session, they thought it was a big deal I had a double digit stats in parts, and could actually stealth (10 str & 15DP respectively).(Un)Fortunately, they understand the notion of "dump stats" and don't see a reason to roleplay those (not they do "in-character" Role Plays anyway).Frank Trollman wrote:Same reason people keep ranting about how overpowered Trolls are, yet somehow Troll characters never really amount to much.
What I find wrong w/ 4th edition: "I want to stab dragons the size of a small keep with skin like supple adamantine and command over time and space to death with my longsword in head to head combat, but I want to be totally within realistic capabilities of a real human being!" --Caedrus mocking 4rries
"the thing about being Mister Cavern [DM], you don't blame players for how they play. That's like blaming the weather. Weather just is. You adapt to it. -Ancient History
"the thing about being Mister Cavern [DM], you don't blame players for how they play. That's like blaming the weather. Weather just is. You adapt to it. -Ancient History
So what could be done to to help reduce the increments, I'm guessing major rewrites of items getting prepackaged and rewritten to be more awesome? Other than that, the combing of Str-Bod, and Gun/Melee Skills into "Firearms" "Melee" or even just "Combat", wouldn't that not be far enough, albeit a decent start?FrankTrollman wrote:Also, they come in incremental chunks so it seems like Samurai are getting powerups when they objectively aren't.
What I find wrong w/ 4th edition: "I want to stab dragons the size of a small keep with skin like supple adamantine and command over time and space to death with my longsword in head to head combat, but I want to be totally within realistic capabilities of a real human being!" --Caedrus mocking 4rries
"the thing about being Mister Cavern [DM], you don't blame players for how they play. That's like blaming the weather. Weather just is. You adapt to it. -Ancient History
"the thing about being Mister Cavern [DM], you don't blame players for how they play. That's like blaming the weather. Weather just is. You adapt to it. -Ancient History
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- Serious Badass
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That's an enormous investment, and what do you get? Something that is about as damaging as a long burst from an assault rifle and takes a complex action at close range to use and is easier to counter. There are various trick builds that can make a Samurai or an Adept roll a lot of dice or do a lot of damage in some narrow fashion, but who gives a crap? There are damn few enemies such a trick build can put down that a moderately competent character with a sub machine gun couldn't put down in the same time. And the moderately competent character with a sub machine gun could be a Hacker or a Mage.Longes wrote:Troll physads were great in SR4. Unarmed build for 10P damage ignoring armor at chargen is great (which swiftly goes to 20P with a few Initiations)
-Username17
Granted, it was in BPgen, so the costs are kinda off, but that troll was a Hacker
What you get, is a scaling forever with initiations magical damage that ignores the armor. You punch out the spirits with their Immunity, you punch out tanks that would shrug off burst from an assault rifle.
But really, my best build was a technomancer with an exoskeleton. He was awfuly minmaxed, but could stealth around and shoot stuff like noone's business, thanks to Gunnery and retardedly high Command.
What you get, is a scaling forever with initiations magical damage that ignores the armor. You punch out the spirits with their Immunity, you punch out tanks that would shrug off burst from an assault rifle.
But really, my best build was a technomancer with an exoskeleton. He was awfuly minmaxed, but could stealth around and shoot stuff like noone's business, thanks to Gunnery and retardedly high Command.
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- Knight-Baron
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I would just to point out that the thread about the future of Shadow Run starts with a hilarious break down of corporate corruption and theft on the part of the, more or less, owner of IMR. So the question is, Does Loren believe he lives inside Shadow Run?
Kaelik wrote:Fuck you Haruhi is clearly the best moe anime, and we will argue about how Haruhi and Nagato are OP and um... that girl with blond hair? is for shitters.darkmaster wrote:Tgdmb.moe, like the gaming den, but we all yell at eachother about wich lucky star character is the cutest.
If you like Lucky Star then I will explain in great detail why Lucky Star is the a shitty shitty anime for shitty shitty people, and how the characters have no interesting abilities at all, and everything is poorly designed especially the skill challenges.
One of the Lorenites spent some time here trying to accuse us of being worse than Loren Coleman because judging before all the facts was known was, to him, 'worse than any co-mingling of funds'.
He sorta took this way too seriously, such as when I proposed a Shadownrun to the Pacific North-west to break into a corrupt CEO's house and steal his gold. He accused us of plotting criminal conspiracy.
He sorta took this way too seriously, such as when I proposed a Shadownrun to the Pacific North-west to break into a corrupt CEO's house and steal his gold. He accused us of plotting criminal conspiracy.
He jumps like a damned dragoon, and charges into battle fighting rather insane monsters with little more than his bare hands and rather nasty spell effects conjured up solely through knowledge and the local plantlife. He unerringly knows where his goal lies, he breathes underwater and is untroubled by space travel, seems to have no limits to his actual endurance and favors killing his enemies by driving both boots square into their skull. His agility is unmatched, and his strength legendary, able to fling about a turtle shell big enough to contain a man with enough force to barrel down a near endless path of unfortunates.
--The horror of Mario
Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath. He is a terrible person and a hack at writing and art. His cultural contributions are less than Justin Bieber's, and he's a shitmuffin. Go go gadget Googlebomb!
--The horror of Mario
Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath. He is a terrible person and a hack at writing and art. His cultural contributions are less than Justin Bieber's, and he's a shitmuffin. Go go gadget Googlebomb!
- Whipstitch
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People always say this, but the other fundamentals just aren't there to support that particular advantage. Melee goons have limited range and Spirits often rock the house at kiting. With extra powers factored in, they are virtually guaranteed to have a few picks from a pile which includes Flight, Fear, Elemental Attack, Movement, Innate Spell, Paralyzing Howl and in many cases Materialization. Those abilities can easily be a problem, especially when you factor in that melee gets boned on the action economy and is also relatively inaccurate versus skilled opposition possessed of extra initiative passes, which describes spirits by default. You know, because Spirits have skills and attributes equal to Force plus a bonus, so each point of Force adds 2 dice to their passive melee Dodge pool and 3 to their Full Defense Dodge. So even lowly spirits are throwing around 8 dice and Force 6s can bust out a friggin' 20 at need. Sure, it's possible to have melee pools of 20 or higher, but it's painfully expensive and at such pool sizes things are swingy enough that missing remains a factor. To add insult to injury, a fair number of Spirits rock Energy Aura, so it's not even a particularly good deal to go punch one in the face just to save the Mage some drain. Well, okay, it is, but only because PhysAds are objectively way less useful than a decent mage.Longes wrote:You punch out the spirits with their Immunity.
TLDR version: Work hard and burn all your karma and some day you too can be a Dan Hibiki in a world where wage mages summon Akuma.
Last edited by Whipstitch on Sat Jan 18, 2014 9:35 am, edited 2 times in total.
bears fall, everyone dies
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- Knight-Baron
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I would just like to point out that the Wikipedia article about InMediasRes has been deleted because there wasn't enough evidence it actually existed. So that whole stink from before, that never happened at all. Just imagined it.
Last edited by darkmaster on Wed Jan 29, 2014 5:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Kaelik wrote:Fuck you Haruhi is clearly the best moe anime, and we will argue about how Haruhi and Nagato are OP and um... that girl with blond hair? is for shitters.darkmaster wrote:Tgdmb.moe, like the gaming den, but we all yell at eachother about wich lucky star character is the cutest.
If you like Lucky Star then I will explain in great detail why Lucky Star is the a shitty shitty anime for shitty shitty people, and how the characters have no interesting abilities at all, and everything is poorly designed especially the skill challenges.
- Stahlseele
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Welcome, to IronHell.
Shrapnel wrote:TFwiki wrote:Soon is the name of the region in the time-domain (familiar to all marketing departments, and to the moderators and staff of Fun Publications) which sees release of all BotCon news, club exclusives, and other fan desirables. Soon is when then will become now.
Peculiar properties of spacetime ensure that the perception of the magnitude of Soon is fluid and dependent, not on an individual's time-reference, but on spatial and cultural location. A marketer generally perceives Soon as a finite, known, yet unspeakable time-interval; to a fan, the interval appears greater, and may in fact approach the infinite, becoming Never. Once the interval has passed, however, a certain time-lensing effect seems to occur, and the time-interval becomes vanishingly small. We therefore see the strange result that the same fragment of spacetime may be observed, in quick succession, as Soon, Never, and All Too Quickly.
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- Knight-Baron
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No, wikipedia, the site all wikis are based on. So, This one.
Kaelik wrote:Fuck you Haruhi is clearly the best moe anime, and we will argue about how Haruhi and Nagato are OP and um... that girl with blond hair? is for shitters.darkmaster wrote:Tgdmb.moe, like the gaming den, but we all yell at eachother about wich lucky star character is the cutest.
If you like Lucky Star then I will explain in great detail why Lucky Star is the a shitty shitty anime for shitty shitty people, and how the characters have no interesting abilities at all, and everything is poorly designed especially the skill challenges.
- Heisenberg
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I especially like how the game wiki concludes that since Coleman wasn't convicted or penalized for embezzlement, the charges against him were false or at least exaggerated.Heisenberg wrote:Wow, really? That's disheartening as fuck.darkmaster wrote:I would just like to point out that the Wikipedia article about InMediasRes has been deleted because there wasn't enough evidence it actually existed. So that whole stink from before, that never happened at all. Just imagined it.
Last edited by Maxus on Thu Jan 30, 2014 8:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
He jumps like a damned dragoon, and charges into battle fighting rather insane monsters with little more than his bare hands and rather nasty spell effects conjured up solely through knowledge and the local plantlife. He unerringly knows where his goal lies, he breathes underwater and is untroubled by space travel, seems to have no limits to his actual endurance and favors killing his enemies by driving both boots square into their skull. His agility is unmatched, and his strength legendary, able to fling about a turtle shell big enough to contain a man with enough force to barrel down a near endless path of unfortunates.
--The horror of Mario
Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath. He is a terrible person and a hack at writing and art. His cultural contributions are less than Justin Bieber's, and he's a shitmuffin. Go go gadget Googlebomb!
--The horror of Mario
Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath. He is a terrible person and a hack at writing and art. His cultural contributions are less than Justin Bieber's, and he's a shitmuffin. Go go gadget Googlebomb!
- Heisenberg
- Apprentice
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- Joined: Tue May 07, 2013 4:35 pm
Can you have the best of both worlds by making firearms work like 3.0 perform?
Vebyast wrote:Here's a fun target for Major Creation: hydrazine. One casting every six seconds at CL9 gives you a bit more than 40 liters per second, which is comparable to the flow rates of some small, but serious, rocket engines. Six items running at full blast through a well-engineered engine will put you, and something like 50 tons of cargo, into space. Alternatively, if you thrust sideways, you will briefly be a fireball screaming across the sky at mach 14 before you melt from atmospheric friction.
- Stahlseele
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You mean, you want the SR3 Damage-Codes back?
So no AP, staging of LMSD?
Ballistic and Impact Armor?
Armor actually lowers the number you need to roll to stage down damage?
Back to the old variable Target Number System that's so hated around here?
So no AP, staging of LMSD?
Ballistic and Impact Armor?
Armor actually lowers the number you need to roll to stage down damage?
Back to the old variable Target Number System that's so hated around here?
Welcome, to IronHell.
Shrapnel wrote:TFwiki wrote:Soon is the name of the region in the time-domain (familiar to all marketing departments, and to the moderators and staff of Fun Publications) which sees release of all BotCon news, club exclusives, and other fan desirables. Soon is when then will become now.
Peculiar properties of spacetime ensure that the perception of the magnitude of Soon is fluid and dependent, not on an individual's time-reference, but on spatial and cultural location. A marketer generally perceives Soon as a finite, known, yet unspeakable time-interval; to a fan, the interval appears greater, and may in fact approach the infinite, becoming Never. Once the interval has passed, however, a certain time-lensing effect seems to occur, and the time-interval becomes vanishingly small. We therefore see the strange result that the same fragment of spacetime may be observed, in quick succession, as Soon, Never, and All Too Quickly.
- Whipstitch
- Prince
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- Stahlseele
- King
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go on, i am listening . .
edit:
actually, that's a lie, i'll be heading for bed now.
but i will read this tomorrow.
edit:
actually, that's a lie, i'll be heading for bed now.
but i will read this tomorrow.
Last edited by Stahlseele on Fri Jan 31, 2014 1:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
Welcome, to IronHell.
Shrapnel wrote:TFwiki wrote:Soon is the name of the region in the time-domain (familiar to all marketing departments, and to the moderators and staff of Fun Publications) which sees release of all BotCon news, club exclusives, and other fan desirables. Soon is when then will become now.
Peculiar properties of spacetime ensure that the perception of the magnitude of Soon is fluid and dependent, not on an individual's time-reference, but on spatial and cultural location. A marketer generally perceives Soon as a finite, known, yet unspeakable time-interval; to a fan, the interval appears greater, and may in fact approach the infinite, becoming Never. Once the interval has passed, however, a certain time-lensing effect seems to occur, and the time-interval becomes vanishingly small. We therefore see the strange result that the same fragment of spacetime may be observed, in quick succession, as Soon, Never, and All Too Quickly.
Sorry, poor coms on my end.
DnD 3.0 had a skill, "perform", which you buy ranks in. Your ranks are the bonus to your perform rolls. But for each rank, you also got to select an additional instrument that you could perform on.
If you break out all the gun styles, presumably that makes it harder for non-gun characters to just pick up and use guns as an afterthought, which gives some role protection. But by tying all the proficiencies back to the same skill makes it much less of a penalty to gunners.
DnD 3.0 had a skill, "perform", which you buy ranks in. Your ranks are the bonus to your perform rolls. But for each rank, you also got to select an additional instrument that you could perform on.
If you break out all the gun styles, presumably that makes it harder for non-gun characters to just pick up and use guns as an afterthought, which gives some role protection. But by tying all the proficiencies back to the same skill makes it much less of a penalty to gunners.
Vebyast wrote:Here's a fun target for Major Creation: hydrazine. One casting every six seconds at CL9 gives you a bit more than 40 liters per second, which is comparable to the flow rates of some small, but serious, rocket engines. Six items running at full blast through a well-engineered engine will put you, and something like 50 tons of cargo, into space. Alternatively, if you thrust sideways, you will briefly be a fireball screaming across the sky at mach 14 before you melt from atmospheric friction.
- Stahlseele
- King
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- Location: Hamburg, Germany
So . .
Guns 1: Light Pistols.
Guns 2: Heavy-Pistols.
Guns 3: Autopistols.
Guns 4: Hunting Rifles.
Guns 5: Shotguns.
Guns 6: Assault-Rifles.
Guns 7: Sniper-Rifles.
Guns 8: LMG.
Guns 9: MMG.
Guns 10: HMG.
Guns 11: Grenade-Launcher.
Guns 12: Rocket/Missle-Launcher.
Or somehing like that?
Guns 1: Light Pistols.
Guns 2: Heavy-Pistols.
Guns 3: Autopistols.
Guns 4: Hunting Rifles.
Guns 5: Shotguns.
Guns 6: Assault-Rifles.
Guns 7: Sniper-Rifles.
Guns 8: LMG.
Guns 9: MMG.
Guns 10: HMG.
Guns 11: Grenade-Launcher.
Guns 12: Rocket/Missle-Launcher.
Or somehing like that?
Welcome, to IronHell.
Shrapnel wrote:TFwiki wrote:Soon is the name of the region in the time-domain (familiar to all marketing departments, and to the moderators and staff of Fun Publications) which sees release of all BotCon news, club exclusives, and other fan desirables. Soon is when then will become now.
Peculiar properties of spacetime ensure that the perception of the magnitude of Soon is fluid and dependent, not on an individual's time-reference, but on spatial and cultural location. A marketer generally perceives Soon as a finite, known, yet unspeakable time-interval; to a fan, the interval appears greater, and may in fact approach the infinite, becoming Never. Once the interval has passed, however, a certain time-lensing effect seems to occur, and the time-interval becomes vanishingly small. We therefore see the strange result that the same fragment of spacetime may be observed, in quick succession, as Soon, Never, and All Too Quickly.