One IP to rule them all, in Hell!

[shadzar]

You do realize that 'D&D' includes like a dozen or more supported settings and they do need religions and many of them feature planes quite prominently?

and IN settings is where they should stay. while Greyhawk was pretty much the default for AD&D since all the named spells are from those characters and Oerth is pretty much just Earth with D&D shit thrown in during medieval times, it was pretty setting neutral in 2nd. Thus the reason people would always ask why it says deity on the char sheet when none are listed. none were in the PHB because that is setting specific material and should NOT be present, jsut like ALL forms of cosmology should NOT be present int he core.

OD&D had no deities to speak of.
BD&D, no deities.
1E, roughly Great Wheel concept in PHB as an appendix, all of which are either explaining concepts or options junk. thus why MotP came about to detail the planes, it even says so in the fucking book, and that it IS a book for those actually wanting to travel the planes, but not for everyone.

thus why 2md left out the planes except in MM/MCs where the info was copied from previous monster stats; thus why Planescape was created for those people WANTING to travel the planes. the fact that EVERYONE doesn't want to is why those were added.

I could have sworn Gate was a 2nd ed spell. My 2nd ed handbook is in storage so I have no idea but I recall games where it made an appearance.

7th level priest spell: 14th level, & 18 or up WIS required
9th level wizard spell: 18th level required

any setting could have had items to the effect, but those were settings, same for adventures. meaning they were NOT the core of D&D. thus planar travel isn't the core of D&D really, since the planes are just obscure ideas for core of D&D that requires either mountains of DM work to create or a setting that allows crossover, or playing a setting that is only about the planes (Plansecape). plenty of people play without planar travel being a part of the game, and they should be allowed to be free of it as that is something that belongs in one of DDN's "modular design" books, not the core.


Note: I misspelled it, his name is actually John Bigboote, but glad at least two people know who i was talking about, and one of them knew the joke surrounding Christopher Lloyds characters name. the thing is it remains the same for D&D as in that movie as well, that being on another plane is an unforgiving experience, which dos not automatically mean "fun" for everyone, just because it seems harder. Also an idea that I have though of about planar travel being how Whorfin did not manifest except in the body of Lizardo which kind of breaks D&D planar travel if such a thing would happen to D&D characters, which breaks my SoD just thinking about planar travel. or as someone else said, it allows tech to exist en masse in D&D world, which break D&D at every level of imagination. the physics engine of D&D doesn't mesh that well with tech (see Expedition to Barrier Peaks).

[fectin]

If you wanted to pursue that sort of planar travel, you might to grab a copy of Heroes Die (http://www.amazon.com/Heroes-Die-Matthe ... 0345421450). It's not exactly the possession model that Lizardo uses, but it's explicitly high-tech society dropping in on a fantasy world by manifesting as fantasy characters.

[shadzar]

i don't want it, that is the point. IF people want it, then a book that describes planes and planar travel should be made. if only someone would make some sort of manual of the planes for D&D after these long 40 years, so that people wanting to travel the planes can buy it, and those not wanting to can be free of their mention in the DMG and PHB and MM.....

this book could have lists telling which monsters comes from which plane if it is needed and refer players and DMs back to the Monster Manual for details on them without wasting too much space repeating the same thing. it could also list various types of cosmological systems that could be used for those people wanting to use them, as well as how to design your own if you do not like the ones included in the book but still want to travel other planes. it could also mention a setting all about planar travel something like a large plane landscape.. plane landscape setting.. what could you call that? anyway, they could think up a name for it later and mention it in this never before seen planar manual.

[rampaging-poet]

shadzar, if there are no default planes, there are no default answers to "Where can I go with Plane Shift?" Suppose a new group of players has just got enough XP for their cleric to level up and learn plane shift. The spell description clearly states it takes the caster to another plane of existence, but the group was not aware there were other planes of existence because none were provided. In fact, without a default set of planes its likely that the concept was never introduced and new players may not even know that "plane of existence" is similar to "alternate dimension."

Having default planes means that new players know where they can go when they get spells that interact with the planes. If you don't have any default planes, there should not be mechanics (in this case spells) that interact with them. Saying "demons come from somewhere else" is fine if the players can never get there, but since the players can get there it's important to have a general idea what it looks like.

Default planes are useful for the same reason that "generic medieval Europe + Magic" is the default chunk of the Prime Material D&D games take place in. Your personal game might be different, but the presence of a default setting makes it easier for new groups to get started.

[shadzar]

shadzar, if there are no default planes, there are no default answers to "Where can I go with Plane Shift?" Suppose a new group of players has just got enough XP for their cleric to level up and learn plane shift. The spell description clearly states it takes the caster to another plane of existence, but the group was not aware there were other planes of existence because none were provided. In fact, without a default set of planes its likely that the concept was never introduced and new players may not even know that "plane of existence" is similar to "alternate dimension."

Having default planes means that new players know where they can go when they get spells that interact with the planes. If you don't have any default planes, there should not be mechanics (in this case spells) that interact with them. Saying "demons come from somewhere else" is fine if the players can never get there, but since the players can get there it's important to have a general idea what it looks like.

Default planes are useful for the same reason that "generic medieval Europe + Magic" is the default chunk of the Prime Material D&D games take place in. Your personal game might be different, but the presence of a default setting makes it easier for new groups to get started.

1. remove the spell as DM is you have no other planes.
2. Planes didn't exist until Issue 8 of Dragon (July 1977, page 4) as anything but ideas
3. there is a lot better things to get at level 9: CCW, Flame Strike, Raise Dead, Air Walk (for those wanting to be Ichigo Kurosaki or Goku)

not having planes in NO way means players would not know about planes other than the Prime until level 9. i would think someone would have looked online before to see something about D&D and notice a book from 1e and 3.x called Manual of the Planes. there is no excuse that a book could not exist for any and all new editions and come out as the 4th book and first supplement to the core. you are just making excuses why they need to be in the core, when they do not. the core is just how to play, not how to do every fucking thing there is in the game, that is what splatbooks are for. splatbooks will ALWAYS exist, and there are key ones that should be made as they WILL be bought by many. IF you detail the planes in ANY way int he core 3, then you will jsut have to duplicate shit in MotP and make people pay for the same thing twice, and that NEVER goes over well. so jsut leave the planes out, put them in their own book, and let those seeking them buy it. this is why settings books sell because the setting is more as a whole than jsut its race or class parts, and mostly the races or classes are the same in ALL settings with a few changes for flavoring tailored to the settings special mechanics, like wizards of the red and black robes for Dragonlance, those houses or whatever for eBerron, bloodlines for Birthright, afflictions for Red Steel or Ravenloft....etc.

this Shadowfell shit thrown into 4th was a problem because ANY setting be it heavy Greyhawk overtones that go beyond "D&D in medieval Earth" is too much setting for the core of D&D, and belongs in a setting books/box/etc for those that want it. why should EVERY player and DM have to subsidize fucking planes they never intend to use rather than let you people that want them buy your own damn books about them? that is exactly what happens when planes or something like that is placed into the core, EVERYONE is forced to pay for them even if they don't want them.

well FUCK YOU, PAY ME back my money for your material that wasted space in MY books, and i had to pay for just so you could have it because you didn't want to buy an extra book.

or did people not think who the material in the books are subsidized by ALL players, and that those people that have no use for parts are paying for shit they don't need and the only one that really benefits from that is WotC/HASBRO? why cant you buy your own shit, why should i have to pay for your bad concepts, cosmologies and deities?

the Manual of the Planes has existed since 1987, and can exist again for those wanting planar travel to buy, or do you expect everyone that plays future D&D editions to have to bu a 1000+ page book like Ptolus (is that the one Monte Cook did?) just to play the game because it has every possible optional bloat in it for the price of say $200+ that WotC would charge for a book that big?

[deaddmwalking]

Shad,

Your complaint seems to be 'the planar settings shouldn't be any more concrete than it was in 1st edition, outside of the manual of the planes.

Since James Wyatt says they're going for flexibility to support all settings, they're not going to 'force' any planar cosmology.

You're getting exactly what you want. Since planar stuff will be different between Forgotten Realms, Eberron, etc, they will make the planar stuff part of each setting.

It still doesn't mean that other settings aren't assumed to have 'other planes' or 'dimensions' unless the GM says otherwise. But unless the GM does say otherwise, there is a presumption of demonic beings from 'somewhere else'. Beyond that, nothing else is required in your campaign (and even that is something you could change).

If it helps, the reason there is a default 'explanation' of planes existing is that at 1st level, you might have summon monster i. The question 'where does this seemingly living creature come from', closely followed by 'is it it evil to deliberately summon this creature to discover traps' can cause a lot of arguments. Having an answer to those questions - ANY ANSWER - is important. The game provides one possible answer that you can use; they suggest that there are other planes, and when a creature dies here, they return to that plane unhurt. That means when you summon a creature, it doesn't matter tht it dies.

[shadzar]

1. my complaint is that planes should have ZERO detail in the core as they are not needed, even if this means removing spells dealing with them from the PHB.

2. ANY cosmology being in the core is a forced cosmology. this may be one reasons i prefer 2nd, because when demons and devils were removed by name, to appease Christians, also the planes were removed as concrete places that MUST be present in D&D. CoreRules i can find ZERO reference to the great wheel as any actual place, just an idea to be filled with whatever you want.

3. planes being present at all by any description or even a single town in the core is NOT what i want, but the opposite. the core should be tools, not a complete product. that is where supplements come into play. you buy the book of planes or book of town if you want ready made places, just as you buy settings. or you can buy an AP/module series/etc if you can't come up with anything. the DMG should advise on running the game, not designing all the minutiae, but how to interact with the players attempts during the game and with the rules present.

4. but shoehorning the Abyss, Nine Hells, etc into core is NOT something all inclusive of D&D's history and a vague idea is ALL D&D needs, not a perfectly and competely design place called "Abyss". the core should not be a setting and should not include ANY deity, their realms, or anything like that.

5. this has nothing to do with any plane. anyone asking "is it evil to summon this monster to set off traps" would already have the moral compass pointed to this is a bad thing to do no matter what plane it comes from. you want alignment to matter when you ask that, not the existence of any particular plane, because it won't matter WHAT you summon or from where, the answer will always be YES it is wrong to send this thing to get hit by traps. you basically asked one of my two questions from my 2-part alignment system that removes the 9-pocket alignment system. it has nothing to do with planes, only alignment. and that will be true whether there is a plane of good, or a plane of evil, or no planes that exist beyond "a plane" as an idea.

are you really wanting it included again that ALL creatures requiring magic/silver/cold-iron to hit are on multiple planes at once and thus a +2 weapon exists on 3 planes at the same time, and creatures requiring a +2 weapon to hit them is because the creature is existing on 3 planes (prime material where you find it +2 other planes) at the same time?

does the game have to force this explanation of creatures with invulnerabilities to normal weapons? does it have to force this reason for +X weapons? are people allowed to just say, "hey this creature is a bad ass and normal weapons just arent strong enough to do shit to it!", or "this weapons is just so bad ass it has MAJICKS that make it more powerful than any normal weapon ever found before!"

why does the planes have to play a part in that? hell, did you even know that is the explanation for +X weapons and creatures that require them?

if you didn't know it was because of extraplanar existence, then obviously the game works fine without forcing all the planes into the game and its probably a better idea to not have planes presented in the core and let it be one of those "rules modules" and an add-on for those seeking that kind of play.

[deaddmwalking]

Your request is beyond ridiculous.

When a new player picks up the book for the first time and they realize that someone needs to play 'the cleric', they have to describe the god they worship. Since this is new and setting may be nothing more than 'fantastic medieval', you are expecting that they create an entire setting before play.

Even if it's just a 'placeholder', you need to know how clerics work and what relationship they have to deities and/or their patron.

Setting books will fill in the REAL detail, but the core rules are going to have to make some assumptions (like divine magic WORKS). You can modify that for your game, but there has to be a baseline. The baseline assumption in D&D is that most of the world-destroying horrors aren't hiding in an abandoned building in town - they have to be far enough away that they haven't destroyed the world, but close enough that they can still fight the PCs. Planes are the default explanation.

Any setting can replace the default assumption, but the default assumption needs to be functional so anybody that doesn't make a setting before play can...play.

[shadzar]

Your request is beyond ridiculous.

no, your lack of knowledge is ridiculous.

When a new player picks up the book for the first time and they realize that someone needs to play 'the cleric', they have to describe the god they worship.

and there is NO point in reading beyond this because it and you are stupid.

where in the fuck does it say ANY god in the game must be described in detail?

Cleric A: I worship a god of healing
Cleric B: I worship a god of war

what the fuck more do you think is needed than this, because THIS is how it has been done by many since 1973. nobody needs Boccob, Baal, Ao, Mystra, Reorx, Paladine, etc, unless they choose to use them.

Ares, Mars, War are all applicable and allowable in that place on the character sheet where it says Deity. you do not need m ore than that. Settings NEED more than that if they have gods that fuck with shit all the time like Paladine, Mystra, Ceric, etc; but D&D itself doesn't need any named gods or religion in order to play it.

again this new age bullshit and stupidity being forced into something to make it purposefully obtuse and complex when all you need is simply scribbles on the page to say that your God's name is Uidzfg. jsut as easy to name a deity as i just did by slapping the keyboard with one hand and capitalize the first letter.

where in the fuck do you even get the idea that deities play any big part of the game? I know this stupid shit was in warlock pacts for 4th, but you realize that 2nd edition had a place on the sheet for a deity, but in its 12+ years prior to 3.0, many sheets went with that section left blank, because it really didnt make a fuck what you put there unless you were playing in a specific setting with a pantheon that fucked with things all the time, which would be a case of DMs fucking with the players all the tie since DMs run the deities.

so tell me how for 12+ years it didnt mean shit and was unneeded for that 26% of the games history (even more since OD&D and BD&D had few named gods to deal with) and all of a sudden them mean the game will fall apart without them?

[deaddmwalking]

no, your lack of knowledge is ridiculous.

where in the fuck does it say ANY god in the game must be described in detail?

Cleric A: I worship a god of healing
Cleric B: I worship a god of war

And if you're new, how do you know what 'god of healing' even means?

Having a 'base assumption' doesn't mean you need to go into detail. In fact, since they want to retain flexibility, they have indicated that they won't go into detail outside of specific settings. If they did, the settings would have to make many changes. A simple framework supports the widest number of campaigns with the smallest amount of detail.

[shadzar]

no, your lack of knowledge is ridiculous.

where in the fuck does it say ANY god in the game must be described in detail?

Cleric A: I worship a god of healing
Cleric B: I worship a god of war

And if you're new, how do you know what 'god of healing' even means?

was the mother fucker born yesterday? they have had no access to internet or TV, or anything where myths are being twisted and perverted for TV channels, for movies,. this is no longer the age of the Library where you must go check out a copy of a book IF it is available, there is millions of years worth of reading at your fingertips ready to come to you on just about ANY device in less time than it takes to send a tweet.

don't be a fucking moron. anyone in this day and age has been exposed to some kind of myth with all the 300, Hercules, Percy Jackson, Hercules, and other movies talked about oh.. EVERYWHERE. you would have to be a newborn or live in the darkest depths of a 3rd world country to not know about any mythology in the world today. and if either of those is true, then D&D is probably not a game you are ready for.

[Maxus]

So I played D&D with this retard of a DM who took it way too seriously. Like, we have another new guy--his very first time playing D&D--and he gets told to play a fighter to learn the ropes. To show I'm a team player, I roll up a cleric of Pelor. I intend to buff, heal, and do some good.

I also have my character buddy up to the fighter, so I become his back-up man and combat medic. The DM keeps giving me these shitty looks as I help the new guy out, since I'm sitting by him, and keeps saying that we aren't friends. And I point out the characters are obviously on the way to being good friend, because they are. We riff off each other, think of some of the same things, and we're having fun in the vanguard, and the wizard and rogue think it's cool to have a couple of decent guys.

After rolling two encounters, the DM gets all smug and we walk into an ambush in a ravine. Archers on either side, out of melee range and too high. So I make the best of it, and summon a Lantern Archon. The New Guy, who's been interested in everything about the game, asks me what a Lantern Archon is, what it looks like, what it does, all that. I start to explaning it's a minor creature from the upper planes with the DM starts shrieking about "SHIT! IN! HAND!" and then demands I say NOTHING to the new guy. Me and the new guy look at each other, and while our characters are taking cover behind some rocks, the fighter asks the cleric, "So what's that little thing you just called up?"

And my cleric explains that it's a minor creature from the upper planes, a little ball of sunshine that shoots rays of light. Right about then, the archon gives an archer a terminal case of sunburn. The DM turns purple and starts shouting, "NO IT'S NOT! DON'T FUCKING LIE TO HIM!" and I'm honestly baffled as to why he's about to have a coronary over this and he starts accusing me of lying. Which makes the new guy confused, and we stop so I can explain that, well, that's what the lantern archons -are-. And he says "YOUR LACK OF KNOWLEDGE IS ASTOUNDING! IN D&D, LANTERN ARCHONS ARE FROM THE GOLDEN GLADES! THERE ARE NO PLANES IN D&D!"

And after a couple more questions, I ascertain he means there's no planes in his setting, just regions blessed by good or corrupted by evil.

Which isn't so bad an idea, so I roll with this in good grace.

Game resumes, the rogue passes his crossbow to the fighter, the wizard breaks out the spells, the rogue uses his actual bow, and I patch up with some healing spells and we win with no serious injuries, to the DM's obvious disappointment.

So the "fighter" starts asking the "cleric" about religion, when we stop for the night. The 'cleric' talks about Pelor, and the benefits of being a cleric, and I sneak a rundown on clerics past the DM.

By now, the DM's getting pissy. And then an explosion happens in the distance, in the game world, and the Fighter says, "By Pelor's Shining Sword, what was THAT?" and the DM turns purple again and says the Fighter can't know about Pelor because he's not a cleric and doesn't have ranks in the right knowledge skills.

The new guy says, "But the cleric just told my guy about Pelor. Like, they've had an extended conversation about it all day."

And the DM screams "SHIT! IN! HAND!" again and says there's no excuse, the character still can't swear by Pelor. And the new guy says, "He totally can, he just converted to Pelor worship because his buddy's making a good case."

So the DM screams "YOU ALL GET KILLED IN YOUR SLEEP BY DEMON-DRAGONS! MAKE FUCKING NEW CHARACTERS AND THIS TIME DO IT RIGHT!"

So I made a fighter, the rogue made a wizard, the wizard made a rogue, and the new guy rolled cleric of Pelor. The DM demanded a backstory, so I said my Fighter was out to find his older brother, a cleric of Pelor, and the new guys immediately says his guy is helping his buddy look for his older brother, who taught this cleric a lot of great things about the religion and how to live right.

It takes the DM ten minutes before he realizes what's up. The new guy summoning a lantern archon was, in hindsight, a bit too obvious.

So the DM screams at us so hard his eyes are crossing, and then he orders us to get out of his house.

Then he shit in his hand and threw it at us.

[Wiseman]

So I played D&D with this retard of a DM who took it way too seriously. Like, we have another new guy--his very first time playing D&D--and he gets told to play a fighter to learn the ropes. To show I'm a team play, I roll up a cleric of Pelor. I intend to buff, heal, and do some good.

I also have my character buddy up to the fighter, so I become his back-up man and combat medic. The DM keeps giving me these shitty looks as I help the new guy out, since I'm sitting by him, and keeps saying that we aren't friends. And I point out the characters are obviously on the way to being good friend, because they are. We riff off each other, think of some of the same things, and we're having fun in the vanguard, and the wizard and rogue think it's cool to have a couple of decent guys.

After rolling two encounters, the DM gets all smug and we walk into an ambush in a ravine. Archers on either side, out of melee range and too high. So I make the best of it, and summon a Lantern Archon. The New Guy, who's been interested in everything about the game, asks me what a Lantern Archon is, what it looks like, what it does, all that. I start to explaning it's a minor creature from the upper planes with the DM starts shrieking about "SHIT! IN! HAND!" and then demands I say NOTHING to the new guy. Me and the new guy look at each other, and while our characters are taking cover behind some rocks, the fighter asks the cleric, "So what's that little thing you just called up?"

And my cleric explains that it's a minor creature from the upper planes, a little ball of sunshine that shoots rays of light. Right about then, the archon gives an archer a terminal case of sunburn. The DM turns purple and starts shouting, "NO IT'S NOT! DON'T FUCKING LIE TO HIM!" and I'm honestly baffled as to why he's about to have a coronary over this and he starts accusing me of lying. Which makes the new guy confused, and we stop so I can explain that, well, that's what the lantern archons -are-. And he says "YOUR LACK OF KNOWLEDGE IS ASTOUNDING! IN D&D, LANTERN ARCHONS ARE FROM THE GOLDEN GLADES! THERE ARE NO PLANES IN D&D!"

And after a couple more questions, I ascertain he means there's no planes in his setting, just regions blessed by good or corrupted by evil.

Which isn't so bad an idea, so I roll with this in good grace.

Game resumes, the rogue passes his crossbow to the fighter, the wizard breaks out the spells, the rogue uses his actual bow, and I patch up with some healing spells and we win with no serious injuries, to the DM's obvious disappointment.

So the "fighter" starts asking the "cleric" about religion, when we stop for the night. The 'cleric' talks about Pelor, and the benefits of being a cleric, and I sneak a rundown on clerics past the DM.

By now, the DM's getting pissy. And then an explosion happens in the distance, in the game world, and the Fighter says, "By Pelor's Shining Sword, what was THAT?" and the DM turns purple again and says the Fighter can't know about Pelor because he's not a cleric and doesn't have ranks in the right knowledge skills.

The new guy says, "But the cleric just told my guy about Pelor. Like, they've had an extended conversation about it all day."

And the DM screams "SHIT! IN! HAND!" again and says there's no excuse, the character still can't swear by Pelor. And the new guy says, "He totally can, he just converted to Pelor worship because his buddy's making a good case."

So the DM screams "YOU ALL GET KILLED IN YOUR SLEEP BY DEMON-DRAGONS! MAKE FUCKING NEW CHARACTERS AND THIS TIME DO IT RIGHT!"

So I made a fighter, the rogue made a wizard, the wizard made a rogue, and the new guy rolled cleric of Pelor. The DM demanded a backstory, so I said my Fighter was out to find his older brother, a cleric of Pelor, and the new guys immediately says his guy is helping his buddy look for his older brother, who taught this cleric a lot of great things about the religion and how to live right.

It takes the DM ten minutes before he realizes what's up. The new guy summoning a lantern archon was, in hindsight, a bit too obvious.

So the DM screams at us so hard his eyes are crossing, and then he orders us to get out of his house.

Then he shit in his hand and threw it at us.

I wish you could like posts on this site, because that was beautiful.

Also is SHIT! IN! HAND! going to become a site meme?

[Maxus]

It's certainly what I picture Shadzar DMing like.

In the "DMs Raping Players" thread he posted on Christmas Day, I did another little Shadzar Is My DM, but that thread got deleted.

I can't claim credit for the idea of these, though, because someone else did it first. Including the scream of "SHIT! IN! HAND!" I just write them as full stories.

I'll write these when Shad's getting too insane, as a reminder to posterity of what his apparent gaming style would look like in practice.

Edit: Found the link, by Stinktopus.

Imagine being a new player showing up to a game that Shadzar was going to run:

Newbie: "So, can I be a Wizard?"

Shadzar: "Sure."

Newbie: "Can I be a Fire Wizard, and have all the fire spells, and like a wand of fire?"

Shadzar: "WHAT?!?! GET THE FUCK OUT OF MY BASEMENT YOU PIECE OF SHIT!!! Fuck you and your video gamey bullshit! D&D is about adventures, not your special snowflake novella!"

Newbie: "What the hell are you talking about, you freak?!"

Shadzar: "Shit in your hand! Shit... in... your... HAND!!!"

http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?p=336893

Towards the bottom of the page.

[shadzar]

maybe if you take the shit out of your mouth then you wont be spewing it so much?

do you not even consider what the cosmology effects within the game mechanics? how does it effect HP? DDMW is talking nonsense about who is the god of X like it must be explained, but if you explain this stuff, then that cosmology will affect HP directly since clerics heal, resurrect, raise dead,etc. now you defined your cosmology you must define HP, is it just meat points? is it allowed to be meat points with the cosmology that says HP is life force and energy? what happens to those people that WANT it to be meat points in the cosmology of it being energy? if it is energy in this cosmology, then can simple healing reverse energy drain? why cannot it restore level drain then if that too is energy?

cosmology Also affects the entire magic system, for example like Mystra from FR who is coming back after being killed off in the Spellplague from 4th, because that is just being ignored completely. yet 4th cosmology will be present and Mystra will be in FR? how is that going to work when she is dead?

it doesn't work, that is why 4th fucked over FR and people hated it. this is why you should NOT include a cosmology to the core game, and leave it for people to decide whether wizards get magic via gods, what HP are, how planes work in relation to death and returning from death. a default cosmology fucks with the things that people like as settings, be it published or homebrew.

you do NOT want your core to prevent ANY setting. sorry 4th fucked up and should be discarded, fit it in IF you can and want to, hell they could sell a Astral Sea cosmology book to convert the core to 4th for the various settings or homebrew, but it does NOT belong in the core.

IF people need a cosmology, they can wait and buy one or being the internet, can take one from someone online to use. forcing HP to be only one thing is a big slap in the face to D&D and does NOT need to be defined by all, unless they want another 4th fiasco.

[Wiseman]

Yet if you want to use angels, demons and gods, you need to define where they come from. Since they're by default listed as [Extraplanar] that means that they come from somewhere other than this dimension.

Some setting choices have to be default, or you'll have a lot of stupidity and confusion.

[shadzar]

and you are thinking everyone wants to use angels and gods?

Dragonlance seemed to work fine without gods. it has no angels. the Avatar of a god can exist without anyone knowing it is one let alone where it came from.

again, this is one of the good things about 2nd that it removed defined religion from the core of the game, and just left it as make what YOU want to use.

a core cosmology is like cutting the bit portion off a screwdriver and then welding on other bits and cutting them off as needed, rather than just having a driver with a hole, that you can place ANY bit into to have any sort of screwdriver type device you need when you need it. or worse, stuck with a phillips head when you need a flat-head.

sometimes you just need the hole to let people fill in with what they NEED or WANT. again D&D doesnt need a core, James specifically said HASBRO needs a core cosmology for IP legal reasons. who gives a shit waht HASBRO needs if the players don't need it? is every D&D player sucking barrels of HASBRO cock now? if so, then why isnt 4th edition still here to stay as their "evergreen edition"?

also it is very easy to remove the concept of planes and leave it for a manual of the planes, or a settings book or whatever. Angels come from heaven, not a plane, just another dimension mortals cannot reach, devils come from hell a dimension conected to heaven, but also mortals cannot reach. heaven is above and hell below.

that doesn't need planes to do. god, they come from heaven, or live high on a mountain, whatever. the more you define, the more you prevent someone else from using another cosmology because how intertwined it becomes. why cant the gods just live on a mountain top like Zeus etc on the prime "plane" just so you can have product identity for legal reason?

the point of D&D is player oriented, not WotC/HASBRO story-time. that means the players, including the DM, should get to be able to choose their cosmology, pantheons, etc for their game world without having this other shit forced onto them to have to remove from people coming from another game that DID use some core cosmology. if you remove the core, then there is no default to have to explain to rules-lawyers that it just fucking doesnt exist for this group of players.

the key to D&D is that you can make it what you want, but the more WotC tries to define some IP deep within, it prevents that and will continue to fail.

maybe demons are born when thieves fart, for all i care, and angels are born when babies laugh. whatever someone WANTS to do, they should be unfettered by the default "setting" to be able to do it.

[Desdan_Mervolam]

Dragonlance seemed to work fine without gods.

You're not particularly familiar with Dragonlance, are you? I mean, sure there is the core conceit that "The gods have been absent for a long time", but that's just an excuse to have them come back with a vengeance. Gods not only exist in the setting but are major NPCs that can and do travel with the party, or oppose them directly.

[deaddmwalking]

and you are thinking everyone wants to use angels and gods?

No. But a lot of people do. So you create a 'default' and then you let people go from there.

The existence of Devils and Demons is presumed 'default' for the game. That's why they're in the Monster Manual (all editions - sometimes under a pseudonym).

The designers aren't requiring that you use them, and if you're playing a Jason and the Argonauts style campaign, for instance, they're probably not appropriate. But you seem to be advocating for having NOTHING since anything might not be included in a particular campaign.

Having Demons and Devils and choosing not to use them is easier than not having them and trying to create them on the fly.

[infected slut princess]

You idiots are arguing with Shadzar about whether there should be some default planar information. But this is retarded, because Shadzar thinks the only thing you need on a character sheet is a name, a weapon, and a dirty diaper. He doesn't even want a game that works, he just wants to hate everything and everyone because they dont understand the "true meaning of D&D."

[Wiseman]

You idiots are arguing with Shadzar about whether there should be some default planar information. But this is retarded, because Shadzar thinks the only thing you need on a character sheet is a name, a weapon, and a dirty diaper. He doesn't even want a game that works, he just wants to hate everything and everyone because they dont understand the "true meaning of D&D."

But arguing with strawmen is fun...

[darkmaster]

Don't you mean the scarecrow? Pre wizard obviously.

[shadzar]

and you are thinking everyone wants to use angels and gods?

No. But a lot of people do. So you create a 'default' and then you let people go from there.

The existence of Devils and Demons is presumed 'default' for the game. That's why they're in the Monster Manual (all editions - sometimes under a pseudonym).

The designers aren't requiring that you use them, and if you're playing a Jason and the Argonauts style campaign, for instance, they're probably not appropriate. But you seem to be advocating for having NOTHING since anything might not be included in a particular campaign.

Having Demons and Devils and choosing not to use them is easier than not having them and trying to create them on the fly.

1. and thus a default of "you make it up" is a better default than some defined thing that gets in the way ala 4th edition...EVERYTHING.

2. demons and devils is NOT the assumed default of the game. this isnt a gnome argument where people wanted them and do play them, it is a Christian made the game, that was not even Christian oriented, because it was only law vs chaos. demons and devils didnt appear until the violated copyright and included Moorcock's Eldritch as a supplement to attract those readers in 1976. this is also where psinoics came from, and was a mistake for both. jsut because the mistake has existed for a long time, doesnt make it right to continue making it. basically it was a new settings like Blackmoor and Greyhawk. why it ended up a cluster fuck in AD&D we know as Gary trying to remove Dave from the game, but that is no excuse to continue to fuck up the game after both are long dead.

3. the failure you always have is the ability to see how people will RULES LAWYER the default into being because it is "IN TEH BOOK". the simplest way to prevent this is to NOT put anything into the book. hell look at the morons in the "rules not rulings" thread that pretty much claim the game is only the rules, and thus must be taken as...

THE LAW!

i find it very funny how you sit and claim demons and devils belong because you see them in MANY core books after a date, and think that it must have always been without knowing jack and shit about what you are talking about. it proves my point that people will assume the default MUST be used, and that is a problem that creates a ONE TRUE WAY to play D&D. i thought TGD was against ONETRUEWAYISM? (with the exception of Frank of course)

4. having demons and devils is NOT the problem, the problem if in the course of defining IP for legal reasons that shoehorns in some stupid place for them to come from that will cause #3 above to happen. if YOU as a DM cannot answer where creatures are summoned from, then you are not ready to DM. the time where anyone thinks they can spend 5 minutes scribbling an idea on a napkin and thinking it will make the a Pro DM needs to come to an end, and i have the balls to tell people NO. not everyone is cut out to be a DM. WotC won't say this because it could hurt their revenue stream, but i have nothing to gain or lose monetarily from saying it. if you cannot accept you have things to learn to being a DM when you cant come up with your own idea of where demons or devils come from, then you REALLY are not ready to DM yet.

sure you could leave them out as the game started, but my point was not having or not having them, just you need no predefined D&D place for them to come from. is every Pantheon going to be in the PHB so it is PHB+Deities & Demigods + Legends and Lore + Planescape? that is going to be a giant fucking book! if it isnt, then how will people be able to play Greek adventures or Roman? How will a group of PCs actually proclaim THIS IS SPARTA! with Lady of PAint and Lolth instead of Ares and Athena?

all a cosmology will do is bring back the Chick crowd which had died out a good bit before 3rd, and now every Nancy Grace and Billy Graham and whatshisface Roberts, is jsut saying again with the "gods" in the core books that D&D IS a religion/cult/whatever.

it is all simple, jsut add that shit in an extra book, and let people shell out $30 for that cosmology book instead the iphone accessory they were going o buy the month it comes out. be it planescape setting for great wheel, manual of the planes for ALL cosmologies and DM help to creating new ones, or something different or all of the above. it does NOT belong in the DMG, PHB, or MM.

[Archmage]

3. the failure you always have is the ability to see how people will RULES LAWYER the default into being because it is "IN TEH BOOK". the simplest way to prevent this is to NOT put anything into the book. hell look at the morons in the "rules not rulings" thread that pretty much claim the game is only the rules, and thus must be taken as...

You can't put a setting in your roleplaying game rules because your players will min-max it.

Anyone still think shadzar has ideas worth discussing?

[sake]

all a cosmology will do is bring back the Chick crowd which had died out a good bit before 3rd, and now every Nancy Grace and Billy Graham and whatshisface Roberts, is jsut saying again with the "gods" in the core books that D&D IS a religion/cult/whatever.
.

No one that's part of a mainstream religion is ever going to give a flying fuck about demons and gods being a D&D book. Mostly because they don't care about pen and paper games in the same world that has Grand Theft Auto's, Call of Modern Battlefield's, and Mass Lesbian Alien Sex Simulator.