"The reason you play RPGs is to express power fantasies"

Pseudo Stupidity · Post by **Pseudo Stupidity** » Tue Feb 25, 2014 1:52 pm

Cyberzombie wrote:
Neon Sequitur wrote:...as if anybody does anything for exactly (and only) one single reason!
This.

As with anything every gamer has their own different reasons for liking RPGs. Some people like tactical challenges, some people enjoy the puzzle aspects, others like actually interacting with NPCs, and yes, some do see it as a power fantasy.

Everything you said there is part of a power fantasy. I am not a beefy warrior or wizard in real life who kills hordes of orcs. I do not solve age-old puzzles to get treasure in real life. I do not talk to kings, gods, and all sorts of powerful creatures as equals or partners in real life. RPG characters totally do that shit, and that shit is at least partially a power fantasy. It's also a story. A story about powerful people doing important things.

If you are playing an RPG for puzzle solving why aren't you playing any number of games that are just solving puzzles without all this "being in a fantasy world" bullshit. That gets in the way! The whole idea of an RPG is you're playing a role, and that role is going to be of someone more powerful than you 99% of the time unless it's a comedy/horror game (and even then, you're probably someone with traits you desire).

Almost everyone builds characters in RPGs who are better than themselves in at least some way (or have a desirable trait for that game that they do not have in real life). You would not play Steve the crap-covered farmer unless you were playing a comedy game, in which case Steve has the desirable trait of being hilariously incompetent at everything but farming and having feces on him.

Nobody is playing Existential Crisis & Dragons because that is not a fun game.

ishy · Post by **ishy** » Tue Feb 25, 2014 2:00 pm

Well tautologically, if pretty much everything that you aren't doing in real life falls under power fantasy, then doing pretty much anything is to express power fantasies, yeah.

But honestly it is bullshit that if I play steve the crap covered farmer (who is better at farming than I am) that that is considered a power fantasy.

Pseudo Stupidity · Post by **Pseudo Stupidity** » Tue Feb 25, 2014 2:51 pm

ishy wrote:Well tautologically, if pretty much everything that you aren't doing in real life falls under power fantasy, then doing pretty much anything is to express power fantasies, yeah.

But honestly it is bullshit that if I play steve the crap covered farmer (who is better at farming than I am) that that is considered a power fantasy.

I'm not saying Steve is a power fantasy necessarily, but that he's exactly what you want to be for the game you're playing (comedy). [Almost] Nobody is making characters they think suck unless the purpose of the game is to suck.

talozin · Post by **talozin** » Tue Feb 25, 2014 3:03 pm

TiaC wrote: His point was always obviously that if you want to play James Bond, and there's a Secret Agent class, it better be able to do the sort of things James Bond does. Because if it doesn't, you aren't going to have any fun playing your character.

This seems right to me. Maybe a better way to make that point would be "Players want their characters to be effective in-game at the things their flavor text says they're good at." Less punchy, though. And I'm not sure it captures the entire idea.

Pseudo Stupidity wrote:I'm not saying Steve is a power fantasy necessarily, but that he's exactly what you want to be for the game you're playing (comedy).

How many games are there, really, where you play Steve or someone like him without irony? Even in Warhammer, where you can start off as a rat catcher or a laborer, the game is about how you're unlikely heroes who fight Chaos despite humble beginnings, and not about actually being a rat catcher. The fact that almost all games out there put players in the role of someone who is in some way exceptional, rather than the average run of the mill, is kind of a point toward deanruel's original phrasing.

Stinktopus · Post by **Stinktopus** » Tue Feb 25, 2014 3:14 pm

ishy wrote:Well tautologically, if pretty much everything that you aren't doing in real life falls under power fantasy, then doing pretty much anything is to express power fantasies, yeah.

But honestly it is bullshit that if I play steve the crap covered farmer (who is better at farming than I am) that that is considered a power fantasy.

If you play Steve the crap covered farmer in a game where you farm, get beaten by the lord's thugs, roll to see how cripplingly ill you are that day, and bury your wife's stillbirths while contemplating cannibalizing them because the harvest has been really bad... You're not playing a power fantasy.

If Steve and his friends become unlikely heroes that fight off raiders and depose their cruel lord, then you are playing a power fantasy.

Pseudo Stupidity · Post by **Pseudo Stupidity** » Tue Feb 25, 2014 3:30 pm

talozin wrote:
How many games are there, really, where you play Steve or someone like him without irony? Even in Warhammer, where you can start off as a rat catcher or a laborer, the game is about how you're unlikely heroes who fight Chaos despite humble beginnings, and not about actually being a rat catcher. The fact that almost all games out there put players in the role of someone who is in some way exceptional, rather than the average run of the mill, is kind of a point toward deanruel's original phrasing.

I'm supporting dean's point, even people who say "I like puzzles/talking" are engaging in a power fantasy most of the time. Just wanted to address intentionally comedic games. If Steve is a farmer who's turning into an adventurer then yeah, power fantasy. Zero to hero is a really common one. However, if you really are playing "The shitty life of Steve the crap covered farmer" you are probably not engaging in a power fantasy. I don't know anybody who plays that, though.

talozin · Post by **talozin** » Tue Feb 25, 2014 3:36 pm

Pseudo Stupidity wrote: I'm supporting dean's point, even people who say "I like puzzles/talking" are engaging in a power fantasy most of the time. Just wanted to address intentionally comedic games. If Steve is a farmer who's turning into an adventurer then yeah, power fantasy. Zero to hero is a really common one. However, if you really are playing "The shitty life of Steve the crap covered farmer" you are probably not engaging in a power fantasy. I don't know anybody who plays that, though.

Yeah, sorry about that, I meant that to be in oblique support of your post, but it came out kind of tangled. Pretty sure we're on the same page.

Cyberzombie · Post by **Cyberzombie** » Tue Feb 25, 2014 4:41 pm

Pseudo Stupidity wrote: Everything you said there is part of a power fantasy. I am not a beefy warrior or wizard in real life who kills hordes of orcs. I do not solve age-old puzzles to get treasure in real life. I do not talk to kings, gods, and all sorts of powerful creatures as equals or partners in real life. RPG characters totally do that shit, and that shit is at least partially a power fantasy. It's also a story. A story about powerful people doing important things.

I suppose it depends on how you define power fantasy, but defining it as your character being better than you in real life is a bit too broad if you ask me. I see power fantasy as dominating the NPCs. And it can often also be linked with torturing NPCs or otherwise lording over them how badass you happen to be. Superman for instance is a power fantasy. He's immune to basically everything and most of the time doesn't even bother to go all out on his opposition because they're that far beneath him. When you have a lot of fun as a PC when you get to belittle the king to his face and know he can't do anything about it, that's a power fantasy.

It's not a power fantasy if you emphasize the atmosphere of fighting against all odds and barely making it out alive. Some players enjoy the thrill of seeing if they can beat the latest challenge through coming up with creative solutions. In fact here, it's the player, not the character who has the true power, since generally for these types of players to be stimulated, the character himself needs to be outmatched in some way and given a suitable threat to overcome.

If you are playing an RPG for puzzle solving why aren't you playing any number of games that are just solving puzzles without all this "being in a fantasy world" bullshit. That gets in the way! The whole idea of an RPG is you're playing a role, and that role is going to be of someone more powerful than you 99% of the time unless it's a comedy/horror game (and even then, you're probably someone with traits you desire).

Well just because you're playing someone more powerful than you doesn't mean it's a power fantasy. Power fantasy are about you being powerful compared to the rest of the world, and in something like Forgotten Realms, your 2nd level 18 strength barbarian is garbage. Literally you'd gain more relative power by buying a gun in the real world, because you'd be able to kill a greater percentage of threats than your barbarian could.

silva · Post by **silva** » Tue Feb 25, 2014 4:51 pm

Power fantasy ?

Say that to our group of OD&D players, where half of it were killed in the first trip to the nearby dungeon: the thief died while trying to climb a not so high wall (he failed the test and died from the fall), a warrior died by being smashed by a boulder-trap, and me, the supposedly tough dwarven warrior defender, died by a stone slinged to my eye from skinny goblin. I shoud have heard the GM advice: "do not bother creating a background for your char untill he reaches level 3 at least".

Oh mughty power fantasy, where art thou ? I pray for thee ! Give my 4 HP character the luck and strenght to reach level 3 !

Pseudo Stupidity · Post by **Pseudo Stupidity** » Tue Feb 25, 2014 4:56 pm

Cyberzombie wrote: I suppose it depends on how you define power fantasy, but defining it as your character being better than you in real life is a bit too broad if you ask me. I see power fantasy as dominating the NPCs. And it can often also be linked with torturing NPCs or otherwise lording over them how badass you happen to be. Superman for instance is a power fantasy. He's immune to basically everything and most of the time doesn't even bother to go all out on his opposition because they're that far beneath him. When you have a lot of fun as a PC when you get to belittle the king to his face and know he can't do anything about it, that's a power fantasy.

It's not a power fantasy if you emphasize the atmosphere of fighting against all odds and barely making it out alive. Some players enjoy the thrill of seeing if they can beat the latest challenge through coming up with creative solutions. In fact here, it's the player, not the character who has the true power, since generally for these types of players to be stimulated, the character himself needs to be outmatched in some way and given a suitable threat to overcome.

Well just because you're playing someone more powerful than you doesn't mean it's a power fantasy. Power fantasy are about you being powerful compared to the rest of the world, and in something like Forgotten Realms, your 2nd level 18 strength barbarian is garbage. Literally you'd gain more relative power by buying a gun in the real world, because you'd be able to kill a greater percentage of threats than your barbarian could.

Fighting against the odds are barely making it out alive is a power fantasy. Are you suggesting Die Hard is NOT a power fantasy? Do people not want to be John McClane? Fuck yeah they do, John McClane kicks all sorts of ass.

You are also suggesting that playing a giant buff dude who can get even stronger by becoming angry isn't a power fantasy. That is a power fantasy, because I am powerful in that setting. If I can kill a bear in hand-to-hand combat that's a power fantasy, because normal people can't kill bears in hand-to-hand combat. Just because I could buy a gun and kill a bear in real life doesn't mean being a super strong person who can walk up to a bear and cut it in half with an axe isn't a power fantasy.

Sure, a level 2 barbarian is not a superhero by any stretch, but he is certainly powerful and will get more powerful. He might not be the top 1% in the Forgotten Realms, but he's probably top 10% since that setting has commoners and shit, right? That's impressive.

silva · Post by **silva** » Tue Feb 25, 2014 5:02 pm

Pseudo Stupidity wrote:Fighting against the odds are barely making it out alive is a power fantasy. Are you suggesting Die Hard is NOT a power fantasy? Do people not want to be John McClane?

Some people want to be John McClane, sure. But some other people want to be a slave, a ratcatcher, a powerless investigator, a gay mormon killing heteros for revenge, or... simply a bunny.

deaddmwalking · Post by **deaddmwalking** » Tue Feb 25, 2014 5:11 pm

I suppose that even if I were a personal bad-ass capable of turning into a bear and killing dragons with my bare-hands (if, that was the reality) playing as a different character that was powerful in different ways might be construed by some as a power-fantasy.

While I think it is fair to say that wish-fulfillment/power fantasy is a big part of the appeal of a fantasy RPG, that's not all of it, and not necessarily the most important aspect to everyone. Exploring a world that's different than our own can be entertaining, just as exploring a person that is different than you (though less powerful) might be entertaining.

Considering the number of people that believe they are personally bad-ass, I'd wager that a fair number of them consider themselves in all ways superior to their fantasy characters... They may be delusional, but if they exist, they'll never accept 'power fantasy' as an explanation.

I think 'wish-fulfillment' is a better descriptor. I'd like to travel to exotic lands - a fantasy RPG can let me do that the way my commitments to work/family and financial situation does not; further, even if money and time were no object, the 'real world' is very limited in the places you can visit. A lot of people would like to explore what it would mean to be born in another century, or in a world that is fundamentally different than our own.

So while 'power-fantasy' is a big attraction to a lot of people, it fails to address other motivations that are rewarded by fantasy role-playing. I'd call it one circle of the Venn Diagram.

talozin · Post by **talozin** » Tue Feb 25, 2014 5:53 pm

Cyberzombie wrote: Well just because you're playing someone more powerful than you doesn't mean it's a power fantasy. Power fantasy are about you being powerful compared to the rest of the world, and in something like Forgotten Realms, your 2nd level 18 strength barbarian is garbage. Literally you'd gain more relative power by buying a gun in the real world, because you'd be able to kill a greater percentage of threats than your barbarian could.

I think maybe we need to distinguish between a power trip and a power fantasy. Playing a hugely muscled dude with mighty thews and a greataxe who adventures all day and spends his nights drinking and wenching is absolutely a species of power fantasy. Whether it's a power trip depends on the style of the game, and that's mostly independent of the power level of the characters.

Corwin of Amber has super strength, super toughness, regeneration, immortality, mad sword skills and incredible dimension traveling powers -- but he usually faces challenges that are as or more powerful than he is, and most of the people who he far outpowers do not matter to his agenda and have little ability to either help or hinder him. Is playing Corwin a power fantasy? I'd say so. But it's not a power trip.

Conversely, if you have a game filled with 2nd level AD&D characters who play in a Monty Haul world where they never face any serious challenges and win everything just by showing up -- that's a power trip, even though, in absolute terms, the characters are dwarfed in power by someone like Corwin.

talozin · Post by **talozin** » Tue Feb 25, 2014 5:58 pm

silva wrote: Some people want to be John McClane, sure. But some other people want to be a slave, a ratcatcher, a powerless investigator, a gay mormon killing heteros for revenge, or... simply a bunny.

I played Bunnies & Burrows at a con in the '80s where the GM was Steffan O'Sullivan, the guy who later adapted it for GURPS. I played a psychic rabbit who, at the climax of the adventure, caused the hoe-wielding farmer to drop everything and run away in fear from our intrepid little band of rabbits.

So I am ... unconvinced that playing a bunny is not necessarily a power fantasy.

Cyberzombie · Post by **Cyberzombie** » Tue Feb 25, 2014 7:39 pm

Pseudo Stupidity wrote: Fighting against the odds are barely making it out alive is a power fantasy. Are you suggesting Die Hard is NOT a power fantasy? Do people not want to be John McClane? Fuck yeah they do, John McClane kicks all sorts of ass.

Not for a power fantasy. You may want to be John McClane after he's done all his heroic stuff and has a badass rep, but you probably don't want to end up going through all the hell he does during the movies. Most people do not want to have to run barefoot over broken shards of glass. When it comes down to it McClane isn't all that powerful. He's more or less the everyman cop who ends up in terribly unlucky situations where he's forced to fight for his life. Sure he ends up on top, but you get the feeling it's more because of luck than because he's actually some supercop and he looks awful by the end of the movie. McClane's life is exciting but honestly, I wouldn't want to be that dude in real life, and I doubt most people here would want to be McClane either. The guy isn't super skilled, super strong or super fast, and you can tell that he's not confident he's going to come out on top. Sure he's done some very extreme things, but the whole concept of the Die Hard series is that he's beating the odds and that his victory is some kind of fluke.

Characters like Superman, Hulk or James Bond are generally the characters that people have power fantasies about, because they're confident. You get the feeling that in the average situation, they're in control. In fact, usually at the start of the movie of a power fantasy character, you get some events establishing them as a badass. The colonel tells everyone how fucked they are to go against Rambo, and you get to see Superman shrug off bullets. When these guys go against most opponents, the opposition is the underdog. That's what power fantasies are about.

You are also suggesting that playing a giant buff dude who can get even stronger by becoming angry isn't a power fantasy. That is a power fantasy, because I am powerful in that setting.

No, you're not powerful in the setting. Sure, the barbarian would be powerful in real life, but in his own world he's just another warrior, and not one that many people have even heard of. The fact is that the 2nd level barbarian is crap in Forgotten Realms. You're not the guy the king asks to save his daughter. You're not even the guy the mayor of a moderately sized town asks to save the town. Odds are you couldn't even clear out a kobold cave alone. Your adventures consist of getting your friends together to do the jobs that the big name guys find too insignificant to bother with. You're never the right man for the job, you're just the best they could get on a 300 gold budget.

Now I realize that it's more powerful than a normal person, but it's a big stretch to say people are playing the game specifically for the power fantasy. Low level characters are very fragile and can't do a hell of a lot. They're the scrubs of the adventuring world, and a group of 3-5 grunts can take you out. I just don't see many people fantasizing about being that guy. I've never fantasized about how awesome it would be to be any of my low level characters. They're just not powerful figures in the setting by any means.

silva · Post by **silva** » Tue Feb 25, 2014 8:10 pm

I think the RPG media is similar to any other in this subect. That is, there are movies and games and books about super-heroes that make you think "Wow! It would be awesome to be like him !", but then there is also movies and books and games about powerless people in different situations like comedies or drama or horror stories where the protagonists are powerless (and sometimes even die at the end) or simply carry out interesting situations totally orthogonal to being "powerful" or "efficient" or anything like that. And thats a perfectly viable kind of entertainment for a lot of people.

So yeah, the "Everybody play RPGs for Power fantasy" theory is busted. People are attracted to stories and situations and characters etc that excite them, and this is not necessarily related to "power" or "efficiency" or whatever.

Sashi · Post by **Sashi** » Tue Feb 25, 2014 8:20 pm

I think once you equate "accomplishing interesting things" with "power fantasy" you have officially taken the argument into la-la-land.

Sarandosil · Post by **Sarandosil** » Tue Feb 25, 2014 9:05 pm

Video games are for power fantasies. I play D&D because I like simulating worlds in my mind. But then I'm pretty much exclusively a GM.

Chamomile · Post by **Chamomile** » Tue Feb 25, 2014 9:30 pm

The thread that spawned this one seems to have vanished.

Dean · Post by **Dean** » Tue Feb 25, 2014 9:50 pm

silva wrote:So yeah, the "Everybody play RPGs for Power fantasy" theory is busted. People are attracted to stories and situations and characters etc that excite them, and this is not necessarily related to "power" or "efficiency" or whatever.

Silva at least read the things people are saying to you in your own troll thread. It is composed primarily of people agreeing with my position with some (correct) statements that I should have included a few weasel words like "almost always" or "in the massive majority". But this is sociology we're talking about, it's not mathematical proofs. If I say "Heterosexual men are most attracted to women with a .6-.8 hip to waist ratio" I am right even if you find me one chubby chaser. Statements about human behavior assumes exceptions can and will exist. Pointing out that someone could potentially play a game somewhere in such a way to make my statements wrong is both totally uninteresting and so classically you!

That someone somewhere could play TTRPGs in a way that could disagree with me means nothing compared to looking at the most popular TTRPGs and realizing they are all about playing super powerful badasses with magical tech or powers in fantasy worlds. Every statement you made argues -itself- if you look at them for just a moment. CoC? Covered. Bunnies? Covered by Talozin. Ratcatchers? You mean what's acknowledged as the worst part of WFRPG?

Seriously Silva this is basically take 1000 of you saying that things could be different than what all empirical evidence suggests and then thinking that's interesting to anyone and declaring victory.

Go read something Silva. Go read about relativism or objectivism or game design or anything you might want to talk about. Go read anything about anything and then come back when you can say anything interesting about it at all.

Chamomile wrote:The thread that spawned this one seems to have vanished.

No it's here. I just got distracted from it by getting trolled.

crasskris · Post by **crasskris** » Tue Feb 25, 2014 10:00 pm

silva wrote:...and me, the supposedly tough dwarven warrior defender, died by a stone slinged to my eye from skinny goblin.

So...he was supposed to be powerful?

silva wrote:I shoud have heard the GM advice: "do not bother creating a background for your char untill he reaches level 3 at least".

So why does it then become feasible? If your character stays the powerless theme explorer you claim you like to play, wouldn't the game be just as lethal then, and would having a background be just as futile? Or does your character get powerful enough then to have a chance of survival? And do you congratulate yourself when you made it through another dungeon, because your character survived yet another time the shitstorm the MC threw at him? Because that isn't a power fantasy at all.

“silva“ wrote:My last character in Shadowrun was a decker shaman from Pueblo Corporate Council. He wasnt really good neither at decking nor conjuring, but he was damn fun to play.

So your character was mediocre at hacking the computer systems of gigantic multi-national corporations, and not THAT good at summoning the ancient spirits of the cosmos. Phew, good that you avoided a power fantasy there.

“silva“ wrote:My last character in Tenra Bansho was a Imperial (double) Agent.

So your character was smart and capable enough to fool one intelligence service while convincing the people in the other intelligence service not in the know that he was totally an agent of the first. You know, that is something I do twice a day, so I'll agree with you that that isn't a power fantasy.

“silva“ wrote:a gay mormon killing heteros for revenge

Yes, killing people is totally not a power fantasy. Not at all.

On a more general and less sarcastic note, I think the term 'power' and especially 'power fantasy' have a negative connotation, and shouldn't be used intentionally in a discussion about motivations for playing, unless you're some sort of rpg hipster craving validation by demeaning your fellow players and highlighting your unique and special tastes.

The very idea of having players is to let them control a single character (or more), and the very idea of having player agency is to have them meaningfully interact with the world the MC presents. Without players and player agency there is no roleplaying, there's just some guy or gal telling a story to more or less engaged listeners. So having players equates automatically to handing them power. Roleplaying games are fantasy games giving the player power. By their very nature, they are power fantasies.
The level of power might vary, of course, but outside of some fringe cases, I can't for the life of me see how one level is better than another.

Chamomile · Post by **Chamomile** » Tue Feb 25, 2014 10:00 pm

Oh, yeah, I forgot that your list was like four pages in. I was looking for it in opening posts and couldn't find it.

Dean · Post by **Dean** » Tue Feb 25, 2014 10:37 pm

On a more general and less sarcastic note, I think the term 'power' and especially 'power fantasy' have a negative connotation, and shouldn't be used intentionally in a discussion about motivations for playing

Do you have suggestions for an alternate term? Wish fulfillment was offered above and I've been considering that. I admit to having chose "power fantasy" partially because it was polemic and combative and I thought watering down the language to something like "Many people play role playing games as a means of wish fulfillment" would just be passed by by the Benoists and Roy's and Silva's of the world who would imagine they were the singular special snowflakes who were playing for true and noble reasons unlike the losers I must be talking about.

Dogbert · Post by **Dogbert** » Wed Feb 26, 2014 1:11 am

That argument is shot down faster than you can spell BASKET WEAVERS.

A 6/10 trolling. Nice bait, but too over-used in other forums for the desired impact.

Sakuya Izayoi · Post by **Sakuya Izayoi** » Wed Feb 26, 2014 2:27 am

silva wrote:Power fantasy ?

Say that to our group of OD&D players, where half of it were killed in the first trip to the nearby dungeon: the thief died while trying to climb a not so high wall (he failed the test and died from the fall), a warrior died by being smashed by a boulder-trap, and me, the supposedly tough dwarven warrior defender, died by a stone slinged to my eye from skinny goblin. I shoud have heard the GM advice: "do not bother creating a background for your char untill he reaches level 3 at least".

Oh mughty power fantasy, where art thou ? I pray for thee ! Give my 4 HP character the luck and strenght to reach level 3 !

Sounds like a case of Killer GM. Death by climbing a short wall is, in OD&D, death by MTP.

Assuming you had at least one guy with a 10' pole or spear, boulder traps shouldn't have killed you unless the DM wanted your fate in the hands of a d6 rather than your ingenuity, and overrode any such approach.

And with enough goblins with slings coming at you, you would have known the law of averages would have played against you sooner or later. Was the opportunity to retreat offered? If this was a railroaded encounter, was anything like a Scroll of Sleep lootable nearby? Given your GM's beginning "advice", I assume the answer to all of those was "no".