"The reason you play RPGs is to express power fantasies"

[Neon Sequitur]

I think once you equate "accomplishing interesting things" with "power fantasy" you have officially taken the argument into la-la-land.

It's a simple enough tactic; once he's re-defined everything that goes on in RPG's as "power fantasy", then by default, "power fantasy" is the only reason anyone could possibly be playing them. It's called "winning the argument by re-writing the dictionary."

Yeah, we saw what you did there, Pseudo.

[phlapjackage]

Good topic!

In my view, "power fantasy" isn't so much about who the character is, as what the character does or is able to do during a campaign. "Accomplishing interesting things" fits perfectly. Joe the rat catcher isn't powerful per se, but during the campaign the player hopes he can awesomely kill some things and acquire treasure and eventually become an important person and all that. James-Bond-clone is already "powerful", but if the game is all about filling out forms in triplicate...noone's gonna play. Really, taking down the big-bad is a powerful action, whether it's from a super-duper skillful sniper shot, a well-orchestrated social coup, or even some sneaky low-level underhanded rat-ploys that end up cashing in on a spotted weakness.

In that sense, yeah every RPG is a power fantasy. I'm not ashamed to admit it. Who doesn't have fun imagining they can do (amazing/interesting/consequential) things that they can't actually do IRL. That's the whole point.

I've noticed a lot of the pushback on this thread and the "other" board comes in the form of people posting their characters and saying "nope, not me, no way!" This reminds me of when I was a much younger nerd and sorta-athletic. Hanging around "the jocks", I would constantly feign ignorance of all things gaming-related, avowing them out of some kind of personal insecurity. Many of the posts that are trying to push back against the power fantasy trope remind me of my younger self.

Don't be ashamed! Shout out, "Hell yes RPGs are power fantasies, and we're proud of it!"

[Pseudo Stupidity]

I think once you equate "accomplishing interesting things" with "power fantasy" you have officially taken the argument into la-la-land.

It's a simple enough tactic; once he's re-defined everything that goes on in RPG's as "power fantasy", then by default, "power fantasy" is the only reason anyone could possibly be playing them. It's called "winning the argument by re-writing the dictionary."

Yeah, we saw what you did there, Pseudo.

If you're powerful in a fantasy it's a power fantasy. Power can be more than bulging biceps and/or being able to shoot fire out of your hands. Having not playing Paranoia I have no idea if you're just a normal person in it, but the vast majority of RPGs make you a person of considerable power. It's nothing to be ashamed of.

What characters have you played that aren't or don't become powerful? It's perfectly fine to play make-believe super friends, that's what D&D is and I love that shit.

[Cyberzombie]

If you're powerful in a fantasy it's a power fantasy. Power can be more than bulging biceps and/or being able to shoot fire out of your hands.

I would say power fantasy is about feeling powerful, and when I'm a 1st level character I don't feel powerful at all.

[angelfromanotherpin]

If you're powerful in a fantasy it's a power fantasy. Power can be more than bulging biceps and/or being able to shoot fire out of your hands.

I would say power fantasy is about feeling powerful, and when I'm a 1st level character I don't feel powerful at all.

Yeah, a Paranoia character has a super power, a laser gun, and several extra lives, but probably significantly less relative agency in society than the player. Unless the player is a woman in Saudi Arabia or similar.

[Saxony]

Flatline hits it on the head, the power fantasy a lot of people want to play is not Deanrulez "lol you die instantly cuz magic", its playing a character who is better than you, yes, but one who is more than an optimized set of numbers.

I'm aware that this is a troll thread to troll me but....

This phrase tickles my funny bone.

Silva, why you troll so hard?

[crasskris]

Do you have suggestions for an alternate term?

"Accomplishing interesting things" sounds right to me, too. Accomplishment implies that the power level of a game is a means to an end.

[Stinktopus]

If you're powerful in a fantasy it's a power fantasy. Power can be more than bulging biceps and/or being able to shoot fire out of your hands.

I would say power fantasy is about feeling powerful, and when I'm a 1st level character I don't feel powerful at all.

Yeah, a Paranoia character has a super power, a laser gun, and several extra lives, but probably significantly less relative agency in society than the player. Unless the player is a woman in Saudi Arabia or similar.

The problem with the "I could go outside with a hand gun and be more relevant than my 1st level character" argument is that YOU are not going to go shoot up a school for kicks. However, your RPG character can try, possibly fail, to do all manner of things without meaningful consequences. The nature of the game vs. reality is empowerment.

[Neon Sequitur]

I think once you equate "accomplishing interesting things" with "power fantasy" you have officially taken the argument into la-la-land.

It's a simple enough tactic; once he's re-defined everything that goes on in RPG's as "power fantasy", then by default, "power fantasy" is the only reason anyone could possibly be playing them. It's called "winning the argument by re-writing the dictionary."

Yeah, we saw what you did there, Pseudo.

If you're powerful in a fantasy it's a power fantasy. Power can be more than bulging biceps and/or being able to shoot fire out of your hands. Having not playing Paranoia I have no idea if you're just a normal person in it, but the vast majority of RPGs make you a person of considerable power. It's nothing to be ashamed of.

What characters have you played that aren't or don't become powerful? It's perfectly fine to play make-believe super friends, that's what D&D is and I love that shit.

My point (and I did have one) is that there are other reasons besides "power fantasies" to play RPGs. I'd enumerate them for you, but you're obviously hung up on convincing us, somehow, that everything is a power fantasy, and I really don't want to hear your desperate attempt to explain how "hanging out with my friends on Saturday afternoon and ordering a fucking pizza" is also, in fact, a power fantasy.

[shadzar]

I play RPGs for the world they have. Thus why i don't play very many RPGs because half of the worlds are trite and just uninteresting shit. like stories be they written or visual form, they may have shitty parts as they all do, but at least it isnt 4 hours of 6 people arguing over the stupid shit whether cat people or dragons should have tits. usually it is one persont hat made it, and you dont have too many cooks spoiling the stew, jsut one that either makes or breaks it, and they are short enough they arent fully annoying (unless you are Uwe Boll, then every second you want to bleach your eyes and wash your brain in H2SO4).

[Neurosis]

I agree with Talozin's initial post. To expand...I think there is a *degree* of this present in any game, but I think that the degree depends both upon the GAME and the PLAYERS.

Example (Game): I don't care what anyone says, Call of Cthulhu is less about empowerment than D&D, or you're fucking doing it wrong. Likewise, playing a Standard Heroic (75 Base Points/75 from Disads) Hero System Campaign is less about empowerment than a Standard Superheroic (200 Base Points/150 from Disads) Hero System Campaign, even if the characters in the former are more capable and competent than the PCs, and there is a *degree* of power fantasy involved even in the former. But pretending to be Indiana Jones is a different kettle of fish from pretending to be Iron Man, power fantasy wise. They're both better than you, but the former still needs to be fucking afraid when people shoot at him because bullets make him die instead of bouncing harmlessly off.

For instance, I have always played Shadowrun as much more about being clever and overcoming overwhelming odds than a straight power fantasy where you are some of the biggest badasses in the setting (you aren't, or you are doing Shadowrun wrong: Shadowrun is a cyberpunk dystopia, so while you may be a huge badass, the corps will always be able to swing more force to bear than you can, and however you fight (magic/tech/guns) you have to fight *smart*).

Example (Player): To some degree, my friend John will make ANY game he is playing in about the cool shit his character can do, and being a badass, even if the campaign is a horror campaign about helplessness, dis-empowerment, and fear. System has very limited mitigating effect on this.

Having not playing Paranoia I have no idea if you're just a normal person in it, but the vast majority of RPGs make you a person of considerable power.

Paranoia definitely has zero aspects of power fantasy. Of course, Paranoia is kind of...the opposite of virtually all other games. Although I mean sissy indie/story/microgames mostly aren't about any kind of power fantasy either, they're about gay cowboys eating pudding, but Paranoia is an interesting example of a AAA game that totally isn't.

Lesson learned: we have a word filter.

It's from my time over at the IKRPG forums. A few posts above I say basically the exact same thing as Silva linked and when people argue it I challenge them to describe their last character and tell them they will probably focus on the ways in which their characters are powerful and exceptional. The response is a guy simultaneously declaring that he doesn't enjoy feeling powerful while LITERALLY describing the character he likes to play as a Cool Guy who Don't Look At Explosions. He literally describes lighting cigars on the burning clothing of his dead allies while striding away with an arrogant smirk and uses this as proof that he doesn't use roleplaying as an escapist fantasy.

Well there ARE actually some people that are equally/more interested in their character's weaknesses over their character's strengths. Like, they DO exist. The person you were talking to just did a fucking awful job of pretending to be one.

[Cyberzombie]

There's plenty of other reasons to play game, like entertainment, to be challenged, and so on. If all games are just a vessel for people wanting to feel empowered, then every video game would simply have permanent God mode, because what's more empowering than being invulnerable to attacks. But a great deal of people want a feeling of accomplishment instead of a feeling of empowerment. And really, I'd say people play games more so for the feeling of accomplishment than they do for straight empowerment.

Yeah, there's no doubt that some do play for pure empowerment, but you find just as many, if not more, that want good story, entertainment and challenge.

[Neurosis]

Nobody is playing Existential Crisis & Dragons because that is not a fun game.

Story-Games would like a fucking word. All them motherfuckers be playing this exclusively.

However, if you really are playing "The shitty life of Steve the crap covered farmer" you are probably not engaging in a power fantasy. I don't know anybody who plays that, though.

Again, see above. Sad things. Index cards. It's a thing.

[Kaelik]

For instance, I have always played Shadowrun as much more about being clever and overcoming overwhelming odds than a straight power fantasy where you are some of the biggest badasses in the setting

I usually play Shadowrun as more of a power fantasy than a power fantasy.

Being super clever and overcoming all the odds to X is also a fucking power fantasy.

[Sashi]

"power fantasy" has a specific connotation of compensating for some deficiency that's not included in "accomplishing interesting things" or even "fantasizing about being powerful".

It's the difference between saying "Every NPC is controlled by the DM" and "every NPC is a DMPC".

[fectin]

Jeebus.

If you guys want to propose a better wording, do. Don't help silva troll Dean by criticizing a throwaway line stripped of all context.

[Kaelik]

"power fantasy" has a specific connotation of compensating for some deficiency that's not included in "accomplishing interesting things" or even "fantasizing about being powerful".

It's the difference between saying "Every NPC is controlled by the DM" and "every NPC is a DMPC".

If you are a hacking super badass who regulary hacks into the NSA, gets away with, and then goes and steals billion's from microsoft, playing Shadowun is not a power fantasy. If your cleverness allows you to successfully steal billions and elude all police forces that should be constantly hunting you, that is a power fantasy.

[silva]

If you are a hacking super badass who regulary hacks into the NSA, gets away with, and then goes and steals billion's from microsoft, playing Shadowun is not a power fantasy.

Your definition of Shadowrun is too Super Powered for my tastes. Last dozen adventures or so with my group we were dealing with drug dealing, prostitution, gang fights, protection rackets and all manner of (very) low-level gigs just for getting enough nuyen to live another day.

[Stinktopus]

If you are a hacking super badass who regulary hacks into the NSA, gets away with, and then goes and steals billion's from microsoft, playing Shadowun is not a power fantasy.

Your definition of Shadowrun is too Super Powered for my tastes. Last dozen adventures or so with my group we were dealing with drug dealing, prostitution, gang fights, protection rackets and all manner of (very) low-level gigs just for getting enough nuyen to live another day.

Taking on the local pimp is still outside of my IRL comfort zone. Real people don't fight the local gangs for a subsistence wage. They put on a paper hat and flip burgers.

[Sashi]

Yes, but on the other hand I'm happy that I don't get in fights with the local pimp, and have no desire to do so in real life.

It's not whether it's in my real life comfort zone, it's whether it's a real life desire.

[Kaelik]

Yes, but on the other hand I'm happy that I don't get in fights with the local pimp, and have no desire to do so in real life.

It's not whether it's in my real life comfort zone, it's whether it's a real life desire.

I have no desire to risk life and limb fighting beholders. That doesn't make it not a power fantasy.

[Sashi]

Actually it kind of does.

Are you fighting beholders as a way to compensate for a feeling of helplessness in your real life? Then that's a power fantasy.

Are you fighting beholders because it's a good way to relax and have fun with your friends? Not a power fantasy.

I like reading Snow Crash because it's fun to visualize Hiro Protagonist zooming down the highway on his Cyberbike with a katana strapped to his back. Does that make reading a book a power fantasy?

Is imagining myself in a job I'm applying for a power fantasy?

How deep does this rabbit hole go? What isn't a power fantasy?

[Stinktopus]

Actually it kind of does.

Are you fighting beholders as a way to compensate for a feeling of helplessness in your real life? Then that's a power fantasy.

Are you fighting beholders because it's a good way to relax and have fun with your friends? Not a power fantasy.

I like reading Snow Crash because it's fun to visualize Hiro Protagonist zooming down the highway on his Cyberbike with a katana strapped to his back. Does that make reading a book a power fantasy?

Is imagining myself in a job I'm applying for a power fantasy?

How deep does this rabbit hole go? What isn't a power fantasy?

Power Fantasy isn't really officially defined anywhere that I can find. However, the simple fact remains that you play an RPG to pretend you are someone else, doing things that you can't, or won't, do. For me, if you are pretending to be someone else, or a version of yourself freed from IRL consequences, for the purpose of pretending at things which you can't do, won't do, or can't do as well, then you are engaging in what I would consider a Power Fantasy.

There seems to be some e-peen issue where some people don't want to be associated with the term, because it implies that you are dissatisfied/insecure in your own life. Everyone on internet forums is a CIA-trained lawyer-ninja with a 12 inch dick, so we can't have that. But, IRL, everyone is fucking dissatisfied and insecure because we're mammals who might not have everything we need stuffed in our burrows and we may not have impregnated enough females to ensure that some our offspring survive.

[Dean]

It's fun to visualize Hiro Protagonist zooming down the highway on his Cyberbike with a katana strapped to his back. Does that make reading a book a power fantasy?

Sashi.....yes. Just fucking obviously yes. If you don't understand why envisioning going through the adventures of Hero Protagonist; katana-wielding blacksploitation future-ninja with Cyberbikes and laser-shades is a fucking power fantasy then I don't know where to begin. The fact that you can't differentiate between that and envisioning yourself getting an IT job demonstrates that you are actually pretty fucking far down some rabbit hole.

Seriously Sashi try and work this out yourself I bet you can do it. Why do you like reading about Hiro Protagonist? What is it about the experience you enjoy. Actually think about it with your own actual thoughts. Why do you spend time reading Snow Crash and not Angela's Ashes? How come when you get together to relax with friends you ride Cyberbikes and slay dragons instead of playing as Frank McCourt in the exciting adventure of only getting one pair of ragged shoes for the year? When you read the adventures of Hiro Protagonist why do you think you want him to succeed? When you watch movies with a protagonist do you feel like you get a vicarious feeling from their success and a vicarious feeling from their failures? Why do you think that is? Maybe genuinely think about these things on your own time for longer than it takes you to type out an immediate response and see what interesting realizations you make about why you spend your time pretending to be wizards and people named Hero Fucking Protagonist and why maybe you enjoy that.

[Sashi]

Except then you've expanded "power fantasy" to be so broad that it encompasses literally every motivation it's possible to have for playing games.

What differentiates "escapism" "character development" and "puzzle solving" from "power fantasy"? If everything is a power fantasy, then nothing is.

I'd actually argue that RPG's aren't very good for fulfilling power fantasies, since even though the game world is freed from IRL consequences, it's still a collaborative effort and you're quite limited by the social contract of the game table.

I'm not saying I haven't tried to fulfill power fantasies in an RPG, I'm just saying that I've also played Vampire LARPS because they were an easy way to hit on goth lesbians.