Pathfinder Is Still Bad

Meikle641 · Post by **Meikle641** » Sat Apr 12, 2014 3:28 am

Deep Magic, is that the BRP book I saw released?

Avoraciopoctules · Post by **Avoraciopoctules** » Sat Apr 12, 2014 3:46 am

Pathfinder. It's why I posted in the Pathfinder thread. New magic options, including spells and (lame) archetypes, as well as subsystems, expanded Words of Power, and some sample NPCs.

Archmage Joda · Post by **Archmage Joda** » Sat Apr 12, 2014 9:01 am

Since this is the pathfinder thread, I have a couple of bits of pathfinder advice that I would like to solicit.

1) My friends and I recently started a game at level 8, and I had the idea of playing a "Laser" Cleric after seeing the Aasimar feat "Heavenly Radiance". However, I'm not exactly a cleric guru, so I am unsure what some other good spells to prepare for a laser cleric would be. I saw Blinding Ray, but it has a fortitude save, which makes it less useful against just the sort of enemy I'd want to blind, and any more Searing Light beyond the spell-like from the feat seems like a wasted slot.

2) I've been brainstorming and toying with the idea of an illusion using character whose goal/shtick is to become able to blur the lines between reality and illusion (like with using the shadow evocation/conjuration spells, for instance). My initial instinct is to use an Arcane bloodline Sorcerer, but would I be better served going cleric/veiled illusionist for it? I know that wizard could be good, but if arcane I'd rather stick with Sorcerer in this case, I just prefer the spontaneous casting. And I am hesitant to turn to the Arcanist class before the completed Advanced Class Guide comes out.

Longes · Post by **Longes** » Sat Apr 12, 2014 12:41 pm

Archmage Joda wrote:Since this is the pathfinder thread, I have a couple of bits of pathfinder advice that I would like to solicit.

1) My friends and I recently started a game at level 8, and I had the idea of playing a "Laser" Cleric after seeing the Aasimar feat "Heavenly Radiance". However, I'm not exactly a cleric guru, so I am unsure what some other good spells to prepare for a laser cleric would be. I saw Blinding Ray, but it has a fortitude save, which makes it less useful against just the sort of enemy I'd want to blind, and any more Searing Light beyond the spell-like from the feat seems like a wasted slot.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1h6- ... edit?hl=en

Cleric Types -> Casting Cleric

Meikle641 · Post by **Meikle641** » Sat Apr 12, 2014 6:03 pm

Avoraciopoctules wrote:Pathfinder. It's why I posted in the Pathfinder thread. New magic options, including spells and (lame) archetypes, as well as subsystems, expanded Words of Power, and some sample NPCs.

Derp. Sorry, posted while tired. Chaosium did suddenly post a book with the same name, though.

CatharzGodfoot · Post by **CatharzGodfoot** » Wed Apr 16, 2014 2:23 am

This is probably old news, but Pathfinder has a 'race builder': http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/adva ... ilder.html

I was trying to figure out what 'race points' were for, and based on my googling the race builder is it. The race point costs for abilities were apparently generated by rolling 1d6 for each ability and then subtracting 2.

Longes · Post by **Longes** » Wed Apr 16, 2014 6:26 am

CatharzGodfoot wrote:This is probably old news, but Pathfinder has a 'race builder': http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/adva ... ilder.html

I was trying to figure out what 'race points' were for, and based on my googling the race builder is it. The race point costs for abilities were apparently generated by rolling 1d6 for each ability and then subtracting 2.

No, race points are what they are because Goblins have to be a legit race equal to humans.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Wed Apr 16, 2014 7:53 am

Yeah, it was mentioned somewhere a hundred pages ago, but basically it was created after the fact to "prove" that Humans and Half-Orcs and Elves are all balanced with each other, because they all use the same number of points.

In the same way that if I buy five apples at a dollar each*, and you buy a mango for five dollars, we both spent the same amount of money on food so neither one of us is going to go hungry before the other one does.

...and in the same way that any "turn D&D into point-buy" project that starts with the assumption of "the core classes are all balanced against each other" is doomed to the kind of failure where feats are worth almost as much as new spell levels (hi, BESMd20!).

CatharzGodfoot · Post by **CatharzGodfoot** » Wed Apr 16, 2014 11:29 pm

Longes wrote:
CatharzGodfoot wrote:This is probably old news, but Pathfinder has a 'race builder': http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/adva ... ilder.html

I was trying to figure out what 'race points' were for, and based on my googling the race builder is it. The race point costs for abilities were apparently generated by rolling 1d6 for each ability and then subtracting 2.
No, race points are what they are because Goblins have to be a legit race equal to humans.

Actually, goblins appear to be mis-costed. According to the race builder, small creatures aren't normally any slower than medium creatures.

hogarth · Post by **hogarth** » Thu Apr 17, 2014 12:52 am

CatharzGodfoot wrote:I was trying to figure out what 'race points' were for, and based on my googling the race builder is it. The race point costs for abilities were apparently generated by rolling 1d6 for each ability and then subtracting 2.

My take was that the same 20% of race point abilities would be selected about 80% of the time.

Wait a second...I've also noticed that 20% of feats are picked about 80% of the time.

Hang on...I've also also noticed that 20% of spells are picked about 80% of the time.

I think I may be onto something here...

TiaC · Post by **TiaC** » Thu Apr 17, 2014 4:00 am

But in Pathfinder's case, that is the result of Something Else...

Cyberzombie · Post by **Cyberzombie** » Thu Apr 17, 2014 5:00 am

Koumei wrote: ...and in the same way that any "turn D&D into point-buy" project that starts with the assumption of "the core classes are all balanced against each other" is doomed to the kind of failure where feats are worth almost as much as new spell levels (hi, BESMd20!).

BESMd20: The game system where you get to experience all the flaws of BESM and all the flaws of D&D at the same time.

GâtFromKI · Post by **GâtFromKI** » Thu Apr 17, 2014 7:25 am

I think the race builder is only some kind of very complex joke. "I'm not a powergamer! My aasimaar paladin has more RP than your half-orc barbarian, and I'll prove it! ... Look, my character has 15 RP and yours has 8 RP, hence I'm a better roleplayer than you."

I can't think of any better explanation of the existence of the race builder. I don't think anyone would say "OK, until now the method for race creation was to ass-pull some abilities; but from now, we will ass-pull some random numbers as well as abilities, add those numbers together, and obtain a new number on top of the race. A number that doesn't represent anything sensible, just a random number. This new system is objectively better than the old one, because people love additions. And they love dump-diving into stuff like a race builder."

Paizil · Post by **Paizil** » Thu Apr 17, 2014 2:38 pm

The current drama over Courageous weapons on the official forums has been amazing. The enhancement says:

A courageous weapon fortifies the wielder's courage and morale in battle. The wielder gains a morale bonus on saving throws against fear equal to the weapon's enhancement bonus. In addition, any morale bonus the wielder gains from any other source is increased by half the weapon's enhancement bonus (minimum 1).

According to SKR, this means it only applies to morale bonuses to saves (and not just to fear). Not errata mind you, this is how he reads it. Now, for 200+ posts, people have been defending his version as the obvious reading that they always used and calling everyone else munchkins and abusers for disagreeing.

Rawbeard · Post by **Rawbeard** » Thu Apr 17, 2014 3:51 pm

You can read it like that. If you add a couple of words. Hilarious.

OgreBattle · Post by **OgreBattle** » Thu Apr 17, 2014 4:02 pm

When are they going to release a class builder that shows us how how many points of BAB is worth access to the entire divine spellcasting list.

Dean · Post by **Dean** » Thu Apr 17, 2014 5:50 pm

That is an impossible reading of those words and SKR is a shitbag

MGuy · Post by **MGuy** » Thu Apr 17, 2014 10:47 pm

Doesn't matter right? They're jsut gonna add it to their long ass list of errata anyway. Then the people defending the shit will quietly shut the fuck up and forget it happened.

TiaC · Post by **TiaC** » Fri Apr 18, 2014 4:49 am

So, I just noticed this spell. Somehow the heavier water makes you sink? Add middle school physics to the list of things PF devs don't understand.

GâtFromKI · Post by **GâtFromKI** » Fri Apr 18, 2014 7:04 am

Paizil wrote:The current drama over Courageous weapons on the official forums has been amazing.

The real question is: why should anyone care?

Courageous is a shitty enhancement that nobody uses because everyone prefer a straight +1 bonus. Even if it increases every moral bonus, it's still shitty: a +4 courageous weapon is marginally better than a +5 weapon for a barbarian... Except you you have to be level ~12 to afford such a weapon, and you don't play a barbarian at that point: you play a caster instead.

The whole thread about the property is like a discussion about the wine you should select with your vomit cake: normal people don't care because normal people don't eat vomit cake.

deaddmwalking · Post by **deaddmwalking** » Fri Apr 18, 2014 11:52 am

TiaC wrote:So, I just noticed this spell. Somehow the heavier water makes you sink? Add middle school physics to the list of things PF devs don't understand.

I'm not sure. The spell description 'higher viscosity' water. But I don't know that 'Increased Viscosity Water' would be a good spell-name.

Sticky Water might have been better, but you throw 'sticky' in a spell name and you get all kinds of juvenile reactions.

So, it's a spell that works pretty much like people intend for it to, but it has a stupid name. That's pretty common.

GâtFromKI · Post by **GâtFromKI** » Fri Apr 18, 2014 1:24 pm

Transmute Water to Semens? At least it would be a thing people actually use, be it for the juvenile reaction.

Seriously. This shit is in competition with spells like Tree Stride and Freedom of Movement... Did anyone think during a game "in this situation, we don't need some kind of teleportation or an immunity to anything hampering our movement; what we really need is the pond being a little bit hard to swim into during the next 10 minutes"?

deaddmwalking · Post by **deaddmwalking** » Fri Apr 18, 2014 1:48 pm

Sure, I agree it is both niche and overpriced. But it's not like there aren't other 4th level spells that are stinkers. Ignore the penalties for being middle-aged for 24 hours? That strikes me as rather specific.

The source of the spell is listed as 'Magical Marketplaces' which is supposed to be 14 'shops' to buy magical doodads, so I'm curious as to the context of the spell being presented.

On the one hand, I'd really like to see more 'functional' magic in the game, but on the other hand, it's usually not 'worthwhile' for PC type adventurers. A spell that always gives you a good wind would be great for sailors - it'd be a major boon to international trade. That type of spell would seem appropriate in a lot of high-fantasy settings, but they're usually excluded from the game. Having those of utility spells at a 'low-level' (so they're not costing you your dominate monster) would be a good thing... But again, they're awfully specific, so having them in the Player's Handbook isn't necessarily the best idea.

Since the source of this spell is not 'general', it's really not that big a deal. The SRD will eventually collapse under the weight of the crap that gets published for Pathfinder, but this is a symptom, not a cause.

GâtFromKI · Post by **GâtFromKI** » Fri Apr 18, 2014 3:12 pm

Control weather is a niche spell; PCs can have some utility from it, but it is firstly a NPC spell. Control weather happens to be a level 7 spell, but it is understandable when you look at its area and its duration.

In the other hand, Heavy Water is just a shitty spell, complete with shitty area and shitty duration. It's not comparable with "a spell that always gives you a good wind", but with "a spell that gives you a good wind during the next minute, as long as you don't move more than 50 feet away". That's shit flavored shit. It is not a niche spell because it doesn't even have a niche, there is nothing useful a level 7 druid could do using this spell. This spell doesn't even help you to impress some commoners with your "powerful magic".

Please note that teleport should also be a major boon to international trade. Except it isn't.

angelfromanotherpin · Post by **angelfromanotherpin** » Fri Apr 18, 2014 3:17 pm

GâtFromKI wrote:Please note that teleport should also be a major boon to international trade. Except it isn't.

It probably is, just unacknowledged. The D&D market is far more like a modern market than like an actual low-tech market.