Butthurt not welcome: D&D3e Alternatives for Multiclassing

[erik]

I don't agree with Tomawis, but aside from his strong opinion about 2e he's a decent fellow.

His opinions are not nearly the obstacle that his self-imposed ignorance presents. People are wrong all the time, but when they shut their mind down and ignore opposing arguments then they become willfully ignorant, and those are my least favorite kind of people. I've worked with people who weren't wrong all the time, but whenever they were it was someone else's fault, and they never learned from their mistakes because of course they never made any. One nearly let a person die because of her error and it took her about 24 hours to figure out how she could blame someone else for it because it was so thoroughly her fault. My least favorite kind of people.

Frank may call tom a ignorant, self important asshat, I'm more inclined to call tom an ignorant douchebag. Tomayto, tomahto.


p.s. Heaven help me if I start justifying my friend's poor behavior by saying at least they're not as bad as my other friends.

[icyshadowlord]

I didn't say I was exactly okay with what he said either. And no, not all of my friends are horrible either.

[Red_Rob]

Tomawis is showing all the classic signs of someone that has never had their assumptions really questioned before. He just went along assuming that 2e mechanics were all fine and sunshine because no-one he met knew or cared enough to seriously challenge his assumptions. So when he goes onto a forum and gets told in no uncertain terms how the things he likes are deeply flawed his initial reaction is to assume he is right and we are all wrong. That's just human nature. In a few days when the emotional charge has faded he'll probably read back and find out he was a bit of an ass about it all.

Accusing him of anything worse than that is just internet hyperbole.

[Kuri Näkk]

@Frank

Concern troll? Close but not quite. I am concerned about trolls. You specifically – in case you did not notice your last posts consist little else than insults. You seem to enjoy insulting people but think that you are a better person regardless. This is sad.

[Josh_Kablack]

your last posts consist little else than insults.

This the The Gaming Den. That is actually not considered a negative here.

[deaddmwalking]

@Frank

Concern troll? Close but not quite. I am concerned about trolls. You specifically – in case you did not notice your last posts consist little else than insults. You seem to enjoy insulting people but think that you are a better person regardless. This is sad.

The quality of a person could be evaluated in a number of different ways. I mean, in one sense we're all 'equal' and deserve equal rights. But on a forum like this, relative worth could be measured by intelligent discussion and insightful analysis. Frank Trollman has a proven track record of both. The insults are a special bonus. But I'd argue that Kaelik and PhoneLobster have him beat in that department.

Regarding the discussion, even if we accepted that the 2e multiclassing worked (I don't based on personal experience) is OP willing to accept that dual - classing doesn't work? Besides not making sense in terms of the setting (how does casting a single spell while gaining 8 levels of Fighter ruin your fighter training?) it clearly requires abandoning your 'level-appropriate abilities in a grab for personal power. In terms of a group dynamic, you're demanding your friends use their level-appropriate abilities while you fiddle ineffectively until you're at least caught up to your original class (with the specific issue at that point being how many levels you're behind).

If we can all agree that dual-classing is bad, I'll have more hope about reaching a consensus on multi-classing.

[Tomawis]

If we can all agree that dual-classing is bad, I'll have more hope about reaching a consensus on multi-classing.

Would it really hurt you that much that I like dual classing as a way to dip into a mundane class before picking a magic using one? We don't need to discuss it, since I was looking for ways to make multiclassing more functional in the third edition. If you really want to talk about how you dislike the multi and dual classing of the second edition, nobody is stopping you from making another thread for it.

[Leress]

Read through these:

http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=52860

http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=53851

http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=49030

http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=53893

http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=51563

http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=12314

[Cyberzombie]

If we can all agree that dual-classing is bad, I'll have more hope about reaching a consensus on multi-classing.

People sincerely think AD&D dual-classing was good? That was by far one of the worst most convoluted systems ever.

[spongeknight]

*sigh*

You guys are all being trolled. Tomawis was a troll from his very first post. His profile picture is an image that is often used in 4chan to start troll threads. You can seriously google "4chan trolling image" and you'll see it on the first page.

Stop posting in the troll thread, please. [/img]

[Kuri Näkk]

The quality of a person could be evaluated in a number of different ways. I mean, in one sense we're all 'equal' and deserve equal rights. But on a forum like this, relative worth could be measured by intelligent discussion and insightful analysis. Frank Trollman has a proven track record of both. The insults are a special bonus.

Agreed, although Frank was not referring to the relative worth you speak of. Never mind. You have a good point: hyperbole insults can be small price to pay for reading interesting comments.

*sigh*

You guys are all being trolled. Tomawis was a troll from his very first post. His profile picture is an image that is often used in 4chan to start troll threads. You can seriously google "4chan trolling image" and you'll see it on the first page.

Tomawis' identity is revealed - the helmet is gone!

[Sakuya Izayoi]

If he's a troll he sure picked an obtuse subject to be wrong about. I've gotten more visceral reactions from shadzar.

[deaddmwalking]

If we can all agree that dual-classing is bad, I'll have more hope about reaching a consensus on multi-classing.

Would it really hurt you that much that I like dual classing as a way to dip into a mundane class before picking a magic using one? We don't need to discuss it, since I was looking for ways to make multiclassing more functional in the third edition. If you really want to talk about how you dislike the multi and dual classing of the second edition, nobody is stopping you from making another thread for it.

Would it hurt you to admit that it is unclear exactly what Fighter 'abilities' you lose access to when you become a 'wizard'?

Would you agree that most DMs prohibit the use of martial weapons (instead restricting you to the wizard weapon list) until your Wizard level equals your Fighter level?

How about in a situation where you're just given XP (i.e., starting above 1st level) that is almost always makes sense to 'dual class' to near equal level? For example, if you were given 100,000 XP, you could be a 7th level Fighter (almost 8th level), or you could be a Fighter 4/Magic-User 8.

I mean, the separate XP tracks are a whole different type of fail - why is a 7th level Fighter 'equal' to an 8th level Wizard? Wouldn't that be the reason to have separate XP tracks? It's a whole separate issue from the multi-class/dual-class rules, but it bleeds into it big-time.

I think I understand why you liked those rules - but having fun with them usually comes at the expense of the rest of the group. Now, in a 'beer and pretzel' game, the fact that you're obsessing over character optimization while everyone else deals with the challenges is probably fine. Just like the wizard is happy to be carried until he destroys every opponent at high-levels, some people won't mind that your 'wizard' spent 4 levels as a Fighter so he is harder to kill than a 'normal' wizard delaying his 'ultimate power' by a half-dozen sessions.

[tussock]

Dual-classing is a design from a different era to what everyone played in 2nd edition.

In EGG's original games, dual-classing meant you stopped playing with the level 7 team and starting playing with the level 1 team. Because you only had level 1 abilities and only needed a couple thousand XP to level up. He ran a lot of in-game-synchronous sessions for different characters and groups anyway. Like an MMO dungeon, only if the level 15 crew got together and blew through the dungeon, it'd still be full of corpses and abandoned junk treasure for the next crew.

So you had to lose your big abilities and get punished for using them, because it wasn't fair in the low level group you were playing in. The oldest rules (in OD&D for Elves only) didn't even let you keep your old hit dice. "Abilities" meant everything.

But the outside world had stable groups, where dual-class characters just blew through the levels by staying with the big team and it's all for nought. EGG said he was going to fix all that stuff up in 2nd edition (basically by sub-jobbing, dedicating some portion of XP to take up other classes lower-level features in your higher level slots), when he saw how the market used the game, but he was long gone by then and 2nd edition was just a fucking mess because no one else in house really understood it.

[Tomawis]

Would it hurt you to admit that it is unclear exactly what Fighter 'abilities' you lose access to when you become a 'wizard'?

If you'd read what Player's Handbook says about it, you'd know it's perfectly clear.

[Red_Rob]

Another content-free post just designed to spark responses. Fuck it, I agree with spongeknight. Tomawis is just trolling at this point.

[RadiantPhoenix]

Would it hurt you to admit that it is unclear exactly what Fighter 'abilities' you lose access to when you become a 'wizard'?

If you'd read what Player's Handbook says about it, you'd know it's perfectly clear.

I'll bite: tell us exactly what abilities you think the character loses, by the book.

[erik]

Would it hurt you to admit that it is unclear exactly what Fighter 'abilities' you lose access to when you become a 'wizard'?

If you'd read what Player's Handbook says about it, you'd know it's perfectly clear.

I'll bite: tell us exactly what abilities you think the character loses, by the book.

No. No biting godammit.

[Tomawis]

I'll bite: tell us exactly what abilities you think the character loses, by the book.

No, I'm through discussing AD&D multi- and dual. Since we all should be literate, posting on a forum, you can read it yourself.

[zugschef]

I'll bite: tell us exactly what abilities you think the character loses, by the book.

No, I'm through discussing AD&D multi- and dual. Since we all should be literate, posting on a forum, you can read it yourself.

I don't you think what literate even means.

[Omegonthesane]

I'll bite: tell us exactly what abilities you think the character loses, by the book.

No, I'm through discussing AD&D multi- and dual. Since we all should be literate, posting on a forum, you can read it yourself.

I had my doubts until that post.

[deaddmwalking]

I'll bite: tell us exactly what abilities you think the character loses, by the book.

No, I'm through discussing AD&D multi- and dual. Since we all should be literate, posting on a forum, you can read it yourself.

I'm familiar with what it says. Since we're all literate, why don't you explain how you interpret the text (specifically with regard to what abilities a Fighter with a new class can or cannot use to avoid violating the rule). You may choose not to do so, but I will interpret that to mean you accept that the rule is vaguely worded such that multiple 'valid' interpretations by equally intelligent and literate people are possible.

I may also interpret your refusal as massive butt-hurt on such a scale that a new system of units will need to be created in order to adequately gauge the extent.

[Tomawis]

I'm familiar with what it says.

It couldn't be more clear and if you actually read what it says rather than pretended that you know what you are talking about, you wouldn't be insisting that interpretation has anything to do with that. That is exactly why I won't continue discussing it.

[Username17]

icyshadowlord: your "friend" is on ignore, because he's a really shitty troll and a really shitty person. Get better friends.

-Username17

[ACOS]

Here you go guys:

Dual-Class Benefits and Restrictions

Only humans can be dual-classed characters. To be dual-classed, the character must have scores of 15 or more in the prime requisites of his first class and scores of 17 or more in the prime requisites of any classes he switches to. The character selects one class to begin his adventuring life. He can advance in this class as many levels as he desires before switching to another class; there is no cut-off point beyond which a character cannot switch. However, he must attain at least 2nd level in his current class before changing to another class. There is no limit to the number of classes a character can acquire, as long as he has the ability scores and wants to make the change. (Certain character classes have alignment restrictions that the character must meet, however.)

Any time after reaching 2nd level, a human character can enter a new character class, provided he has scores of 17 or better in the prime requisites of the new class. After switching to a new class, the character no longer earns experience points in his previous character class and he can no longer advance in level in that class. Nor can he switch back to his first class at a later date, hoping to resume his advancement where he left off. Once he leaves a class he has finished his studies in it. Instead, he starts over in a new class, at 1st level with 0 experience points, but he does retain his previous Hit Dice and hit points. He gains the abilities, and must abide by all of the restrictions, of the new class. He does not gain or lose any points on his ability scores (for example, an 18 Strength wizard who changes to fighter does not gain the percentile Strength bonus, but likewise a fighter changing to a wizard would not lose it). The character uses the combat and saving throw tables appropriate to his new class and level.

This is not to imply that a dual-class human forgets everything he knew before; he still has, at his fingertips, all the knowledge, abilities, and proficiencies of his old class. But if he uses any of his previous class's abilities during an encounter, he earns no experience for that encounter and only half experience for the adventure. The only values that can be carried over from the previous class without restriction are the character's Hit Dice and hit points. The character is penalized for using his old attack or saving throw numbers, weapons or armor that are now prohibited, and any special abilities of the old class that are not also abilities of the new class. (The character is trying to learn new ways to do things; by slipping back to his old methods, he has set back his learning in his new character class.)

In addition, the character earns no additional Hit Dice or hit points while advancing in his new class.

The restrictions in the previous two paragraphs last until the character reaches a higher level in his new class than his maximum level in any of his previous classes. At that point, both restrictions are dropped: the character gains the abilities of his previous classes without jeopardizing his experience points for the adventure, and he earns additional Hit Dice (those of his new class) and hit points for gaining experience levels in his new class.

Once these restrictions are lifted, the character must still abide by the restrictions of whichever class he is using at the moment. A dual-class fighter/mage, for example, cannot cast spells while wearing armor.

Now we don't have to worry about the facts of what it says.
Of course, I can't even follow the argument at this point.

Also, Mulit-classed is basically just gestalt, with just a slight bit of nerfage.