Mythic roleplaying ?

[silva]

In a recent discussion with a pal, he argued that playing in ancient greece with sandal-footed heroes in hack-slash against medusas characterized a mythic rpg. I argued thats not necessarily the case, and that anything mythic should be about emulating truths present in old stories, so a contemporary investigative game where a afro-detective sacrifices to Papa Legba each time a new case begins so it helps him seeing the truth, just like his father taught him whan he was a boy, is more mythic than his hack-and-slash with medusas.

What are your thoughts on this ?

[Pixels]

myth·ic ˈmiTHik/ adjective
1. of, relating to, or resembling myth.
Origin: 1670–80; < Late Latin my&#772;thicus < Greek my&#772;thikós of myths (see myth, -ic)

Yes, playing out Greek myths is described well by a Greek-rooted word meaning related to myths. I don't know your example, but arguing over who is more myth-y seems like you're just trying to stir up trouble.

[Sakuya Izayoi]

Voodoo cop sounds more like gritty pulp to me than what "mythic" implies. Mythic has an epic tone to it that sometimes doesn't come across when an RPG turns out to be a wading in mud simulator, or a wizards trump everything simulator.

[Grek]

Mythic means that the events that happen in game are like the events that happen in myths. Myths are not contemporary events, so contemporary investigative games are not mythical even if one of the characters happens to talk about or believe in some mythic event.

[angelfromanotherpin]

I think this is yet another thread where silva pretends to want a discussion but actually wants to shill for Glorantha.

[silva]

Nah, I can chill for Glorantha in every other thread, why create one just for that ?

Mythic means that the events that happen in game are like the events that happen in myths. Myths are not contemporary events, so contemporary investigative games are not mythical even if one of the characters happens to talk about or believe in some mythic event.

Ok, but how do you apply that to games ? Because, by your definition, a hack-slash of sandal-footed fighters against medusas are not mythical either, right ?

[Grek]

According to myth Perseus hack-slash'd Medusa's head off while wearing sandals. It's very mythic.

[angelfromanotherpin]

I think hack-and-slashing Medusas is perfectly mythical. Because myths don't make any goddamn sense except as metaphors. I mean, Medusa is a proper noun, so killing multiple instances of the same person doesn't make any sense in the first place. But the gorgonae were prophylactic goddesses, so it makes perfect sense if you look at it as a metaphor for a man shtupping his way through a series of women all supposedly protected by the same goddess.

Though it would make a better metaphor if the game were about stabbing Medusas.

[Stinktopus]

How about everyone, especially game designers, take a fucking step back from using Epic, Mythic, Heroic, Cinematic, Furious, etc. to mean "stuff that I find cool" and just say what appeals to you.

Exalted: "In this game, you can body slam Cthulhu. Your attack will be more effective if you spend a lot of time describing it."

GURPS: "Everything you do can be modelled in the game engine. Your default character is a squishy human who can step on broken glass, get infected, and die."

3.5 D&D: "Thousands of options to customize your character! 15 of them are pretty good!"

[Sakuya Izayoi]

How about everyone, especially game designers, take a fucking step back from using Epic, Mythic, Heroic, Cinematic, Furious, etc. to mean "stuff that I find cool" and just say what appeals to you.

Exalted: "In this game, you can body slam Cthulhu. Your attack will be more effective if you spend a lot of time describing it."

GURPS: "Everything you do can be modelled in the game engine. Your default character is a squishy human who can step on broken glass, get infected, and die."

3.5 D&D: "Thousands of options to customize your character! 15 of them are pretty good!"

I mostly agree, aside from having misused epic myself.

What irks me mostly is when you're promised body slamming Cthulhu, and you get dying of infected wounds, like in FFG's Warhammer 40k games.

[fectin]

Not actually mutually exclusive. Exalted actually has moderately harsh rules for infection and crippling and such. It's just that all the PCs usually have awakened essence, which means you get to completely ignore all the fiddly bits.

[silva]

Dont know, I feel the definition you guys are using here are too.. superficial, I think. Like saying Forgotten Realms D&D is "medieval roleplaying" when in truth there is little of medieval in there except for a very thin aesthetical veneer.

I think a mythic roleplaying game should include some kind of mythology in place, historical or fictional, and then the game should tap it some way during play, or something like that. Perhaps having a mythology-creation phase preceeding char-creation, where the players colaboratively build the main myths that define the world, and then follow through by creating characters that tap into those myths. And perhaps making use of stats like Values or Beliefs that are related to those myths, so the characters are driven by the pursue/uphioding of myth-related goals.

[tussock]

FR is kitchen sink roleplaying. Ancient Egyptian mummy-kings are basically right next to age-of-sail conquistadors, and in between is the Huns and Vikings and the round table grail knights and family-run Mediterranean city-states and empire building armies and the crusades and just everything from everywhen. Hell, you can even go back in time for the real mythic stuff.

But silva's point there is it's not mythological if you're doing something like what they did it the myths, it's only mythological if your character believes in what her peers would call myths. Which is hilarious, but whatever.

Obviously not true for silva in D&D, with Clerics, because that'd be not nearly fashionable enough. Because that's where that comes from. If it's not all meta and indy and shit, you're doing it wrong.

[TheFlatline]

People usually confuse mythic with epic in a literary capacity. Epics can be contemporary.

[silva]

But silva's point there is it's not mythological if you're doing something like what they did it the myths

But thats my exact definition for mythic, Tussock! Only the myths the players should be emulating/interacting should be in-game ones ! The fact a game is dressed as ancient greece by itself has nothing to do with myths. A hack-slash game in ancient greece is a... Hack-slash game !

King of Dragon Pass is a mythic game. That greek Diablo clone (Titan Quest ?) is not. Can you see the difference ? One deal with myths - meanings that inform reality - all the time, while the other is just dressed-up as a culture thats famous for its myths but dont deal with any myths by itself, instead its a pure hack-slash game.


*EDIT*

just remembered a game that always felt very mythical to me: Everway. The way the main world where spherewalkers come from is steepd in tradition and old stories, whith the traditional clans from The city of Everway, the creation stories, etc. And the way the 4 elements and tarot figures oermeate the game - from the resolution mechanic to players atributes, to the way different cultures across spheres acknoledge its existence and give different meanings to it, etc. youre always dealing with these archetypes, these "building blocks of reality" in some way. All this evoke a strong mythic feel to me. I mean, its subtle yeah, but its there.

Contrast Eveway with, say, Planescape, and you see the difference. Planescape is a pastiche of mythologies from every Earth culture but dont have any myths by itself - how Sigil was created? Where the Lady come from? Who was the first planewalker ? Etc. Its an empty setting, mythologically speaking.

[Emerald]

Contrast Eveway with, say, Planescape, and you see the difference. Planescape is a pastiche of mythologies from every Earth culture but dont have any myths by itself - how Sigil was created? Where the Lady come from? Who was the first planewalker ? Etc. Its an empty setting, mythologically speaking.

Except that Planescape does have in-setting myths--several different creation myths, Lady of Pain origin myths, and other myths, in fact, so people can squabble about which one is true just like they would about real-world religions--and if Everway qualifies as mythic due to the prevalence of the tarot and elements then Planescape, with the way alignment, belief, and philosophy "permeate the game, from...player attributes to the way different cultures across spheres acknowledge its existence and give different meanings to it," certainly qualifies. The entire premise of the setting is "Belief shapes reality, so you need to wage a war of philosophies to change things instead of trying to kill infinite demons," it's hard to get more mythic in-game than that.

Which isn't to say either game is particularly good (Planescape is good if you take the broad strokes and ignore the stupid, and I don't know anything about Everway but you don't have the best track record for favorite games), but they're certainly mythic by your definition.

[Sakuya Izayoi]

Mostly, the term makes me think of "Mythic Europe" from Ars Magica. Which says that fae and the Tuatha Dé Danann and wizards are real.

So someone extrapolating that to say that in Mythic Greece, minotaurs and gorgon and titans and Olympian gods are real, doesn't bug me too much.

[hogarth]

I think a mythic roleplaying game should include some kind of mythology in place, historical or fictional, and then the game should tap it some way during play, or something like that.

That's a great circular definition: A mythic game should be based on mythology, and mythology is a collection of mythic stories.

[silva]

Except that Planescape does have in-setting myths--several different creation myths, Lady of Pain origin myths, and other myths,

Emerald, Im a big fan of PS, I have a dozen supplements, including the Planes of boxes and even the one on gods (On Hallowed Ground) and none of them give actual myths about anything you said. And no, conspiracy theories and jokes involving the Lady of Pain (like the one which says she is a bunch of cranium rats under a robe) dont count. Neither does myths from the myriad Earth mythologies, because they are related to their original world cultures, not the multiverse or Sigil.

and if Everway qualifies as mythic due to the prevalence of the tarot and elements then Planescape, with the way alignment, belief, and philosophy "permeate the game, from...player attributes to the way different cultures across spheres acknowledge its existence and give different meanings to it," certainly qualifies.

There is a difference, I think. Everway elements and the Tarot deck are archetypal to the game proposed reality, they establish a common ground of meanings to the whole unverse, while Planescape factional beliefs are like theories from philosophers/physickers attempting to understand nature around them, each one wildly different from the other, and far from establishing a common ground for peoples to tap. Everway beliefs tends to the folkloric, while Planescape beliefs tend to the scientific. The very existence of dissidence / disagreement in Planescape is proof of that. Myth is not about dissidence, science is! Its a paradox really - with all those wonderful mythologies around, Sigil ethos resembles more a 19th century metropolis (London really, even the lingo is similar) than a ancient one.

The most mythical things in Planescape, in my view, are the Alignments. They are (or could have been) the true building blocks of the planes, permeating every plane, every person, every molecule. They are the best chance the setting has for establishing a common ground of values and meanings for its peoples. But their treatment is so poor it hurts (when their meaning isnt ill-defined, its ambiguous or simply unplausible).

*EDIT*

If you look at this sample card from the Tarot deck, you will see it has a set of meanings, which are evoked each time the players draw it, and which are also referentiated in-game by cultures and other elements. This kind of self-referentiality, this mythopoaeic quality of creating a unit of meaning and then evoking it again and again and agian, is what gives Everway a certain mythic quality, I think.

[Drolyt]

What are your thoughts on this ?

This really depends on your goals. I mean, why does it matter whether something qualifies as a "mythic rpg" or not? If your goal is to have meaningful categorization of role-playing games then it would help to have some examples of other categories. In other words, what is mythic opposed to? Urban fantasy? Sword and sorcery? Supernatural horror? Give me that and I'll tell you whether your definition of "mythic rpg" makes sense.

As for whether your friend's definition is a meaningful one, probably not. Simply having a Greek theme doesn't make something mythic under any normal definition of mythic.

[Stinktopus]

As for whether your friend's definition is a meaningful one, probably not. Simply having a Greek theme doesn't make something mythic under any normal definition of mythic.

The friend's definition (and I find the claim of Silva having friends to be dubious) was guys in sandals fighting Medusas, which are creatures out of Greek myths. So, it is, of course, mythic.

Let's argue about some other vague, bullshit terms!

Anything happening in North America after smallpox wiped out the aboriginal civilizations is "Post-Apocalyptic." Ditto for Europe after the fall of the Roman Empire and modern Japan (which was nuked more recently than anything in the Fallout series).

Anything with long-winded descriptions of travel is "Epic."

Anything with a long-lived elf is "Tolkienesque," including Shadowrun. You know what? We'll add World of Darkness: Changeling in there.

[Drolyt]

As for whether your friend's definition is a meaningful one, probably not. Simply having a Greek theme doesn't make something mythic under any normal definition of mythic.

The friend's definition (and I find the claim of Silva having friends to be dubious) was guys in sandals fighting Medusas, which are creatures out of Greek myths. So, it is, of course, mythic.

Yeah, but that doesn't seem a terribly useful definition of mythic. Which is why I was asking what Silva's goal is. We can argue subjective definitions all day, but a definition can only be objectively good or bad with respect to an objective goal.

[Stinktopus]

Yeah, but that doesn't seem a terribly useful definition of mythic. Which is why I was asking what Silva's goal is. We can argue subjective definitions all day, but a definition can only be objectively good or bad with respect to an objective goal.

A useful definition of "mythic" is "of and/or pertaining to myths."

Silva wants the world to hear "mythic" and think "gritty voodoo cop." So, you can either pepper Merriam-Webster's English Dictionary with requests to add "2. of and/or pertaining to gritty voodoo cops"; or you can just call games about gritty voodoo cops "gritty voodoo cop games."

Silva's "goal" was to say that gritty voodoo cops are cooler than stabbing gorgons, and inviting other people to join him in an elitist circle jerk onto the face of his "friend." Silva is, because he is a wrong-headed twat-shitter, insisting that "mythic" be the defacto term for something that is subjectively cool. Bonus points issued for insisting that the canonical beliefs of a real-world religion be characterized as "myths."

[Drolyt]

Yeah, but that doesn't seem a terribly useful definition of mythic. Which is why I was asking what Silva's goal is. We can argue subjective definitions all day, but a definition can only be objectively good or bad with respect to an objective goal.

A useful definition of "mythic" is "of and/or pertaining to myths."

Well, I meant useful with respect to RGPs. If "mythic rpg" as Silva put it refers to any RPG with elements from real world myths then that term is uselessly broad.

[momothefiddler]

I submit that a "mythic rpg" is any rpg that closely resembles Pathfinder's Mythic rules.