Zero Buzz on 5E...Is It Dead Out The Gate?

ishy · Post by **ishy** » Sat May 03, 2014 10:35 am

deaddmwalking wrote:More options means more power.

Not necessarily. For example, if in a 3.5 game you can choose between playing a wizard/cleric/druid and then you get the option to play a monk as well, the more options means more power does not hold true.

Or you know, spells that allow you to build a gish type character instead of ones that make you win encounters.

deaddmwalking · Post by **deaddmwalking** » Sat May 03, 2014 1:27 pm

ishy wrote:
deaddmwalking wrote:More options means more power.
Not necessarily. For example, if in a 3.5 game you can choose between playing a wizard/cleric/druid and then you get the option to play a monk as well, the more options means more power does not hold true.

Or you know, spells that allow you to build a gish type character instead of ones that make you win encounters.

For spells, it largely does. Since you can 'build' your spell-suite each day based on your expected encounters, you can tailor yourself to more challenges if you have more options.

If you could choose to be a cleric, a druid, a wizard or a monk every day, having monk as an option does make you more powerful. In the rare instance that you are facing challenges that a monk is better at, you'd have that option.

In the case of spells and the cleric spell list, specifically, adding additional spells doesn't even have an opportunity cost as far as 'spells known'. If a Sorcerer takes sand tracking as a spell, choosing a bad option actually reduced their power of a 'core-only' sorcerer with good spell selections. But having 'sand tracking' in the game as something they can learn (or better yet, purchase a scroll of), they've increased their potential utility in a niche fashion - but is still an increase in general utility/power.

brized · Post by **brized** » Sat May 03, 2014 10:54 pm

deaddmwalking wrote:In the case of spells and the cleric spell list, specifically, adding additional spells doesn't even have an opportunity cost as far as 'spells known'...

For an advanced player, sure. For a non-advanced player, you have what amount to trap options in the overwhelming majority of circumstances.

Most players are not advanced players.

tussock · Post by **tussock** » Sun May 04, 2014 4:37 am

Most non-advanced players can google the ranked thoughts of thousands of advanced players in whatever time it takes to type "best D&D classes", or "good 3rd level Wizard spells". It's not 1995 any more, the internet happened.

Drolyt · Post by **Drolyt** » Sun May 04, 2014 4:54 pm

tussock wrote:Most non-advanced players can google the ranked thoughts of thousands of advanced players in whatever time it takes to type "best D&D classes", or "good 3rd level Wizard spells". It's not 1995 any more, the internet happened.

How many people actually do that though? Especially given that fighter threads still show up all the time on various forums.

brized · Post by **brized** » Sun May 04, 2014 5:40 pm

I've done grognards in my RL gaming groups the courtesy of linking to such resources, and they've willfully ignored them, dismissing them as "just some people on forums". These people think they're advanced players by virtue of playing the game in a grossly suboptimal way for an extended time.

ACOS · Post by **ACOS** » Sun May 04, 2014 7:14 pm

brized wrote:I've done grognards in my RL gaming groups the courtesy of linking to such resources, and they've willfully ignored them, dismissing them as "just some people on forums". These people think they're advanced players by virtue of playing the game in a grossly suboptimal way for an extended time.

Trust me, it's not just you.
To go a step further: I've actually had a DM that had a default antagonistic attitude towards me and everything that I tried to do (from character creation to in-game actions/decisions) for absolutely no other reason than that he knew that I happen to read the gaming forums.
At one point I called him on it, and he fully admitted to the fact that was going on; and wasn't the slightest bit embarrassed about it.
I didn't stick around much longer after that.

tussock · Post by **tussock** » Mon May 05, 2014 3:45 am

Oh, wow. OK, hadn't run into anything like that. I mean, I'm pretty handy with a ban-hammer and loves me some house rules, but people knowing how the default works out is of benefit to that process. Yes, I did something about scry-buff-teleport, you can thank me l8r.

I guess if you're going to pretend to not modify the game to get it serviceable, then people knowing how it really works is a problem that needs constantly repressed. I just hadn't thought of being a delusional control freak like that.

Krusk · Post by **Krusk** » Sat May 10, 2014 3:39 pm

I was checking out the gen-con website today. Not only is WoTC Not a main sponsor, but Paizo is.

Wizards does have a presence at the convention though. Just not a big one.

http://www.wizards.com/DnD/Feature.aspx ... ure/gencon

You can sign up to do a playtest with some DMs or do 1 of 2 exciting seminars.

Dungeons & Dragons the New Edition: Ready, Set, Play!

Join the D&D team in a series of sessions to discuss features of the upcoming new edition, answer questions, and walk through character creation. Each session has a short presentation and a workshop.

Run-Time: 2 hours; 10 AM–12 PM, 1–3 PM, 3–5 PM every day (except Friday 4– 6 PM)
---------------
Storytelling in the Realms: Tyranny of Dragons and Beyond

Join Chris Perkins, Ed Greenwood, and R.A. Salvatore to discuss what makes great stories and adventures.

Run-Time: 2 Hours; Friday 4–6 PM

So in 1 they will do a series of Q&A for 5e and maybe show off some of the current incarnation of the rules and the other you get to see R.A Salvatore jerk himself off.

Current incarnation of rules - Is this just going to be them walking through the current playtest and showing people how it plays? will they just show some concept art and throw out buzz words? Will they just cop to not having done anything for a few years now?

I hope someone sneaks a camera in and video tapes it so we can compare what they talk about now vs what we get if/when its released. Best example would be the VTT from before 4e release.

Insomniac · Post by **Insomniac** » Tue May 13, 2014 5:15 pm

"Current incarnation of the rules."

Sorry in advance for the caps-lock but..

THEY HAVE BEEN WORKING ON THIS SHIT SINCE DECEMBER 2010.

WHAT THE FUCK HAVE THEY BEEN DOING?!?![/

TiaC · Post by **TiaC** » Tue May 13, 2014 5:41 pm

Getting paid.

erik · Post by **erik** » Tue May 13, 2014 8:52 pm

Krusk wrote:
I hope someone sneaks a camera in and video tapes it so we can compare what they talk about now vs what we get if/when its released. Best example would be the VTT from before 4e release.

Is recording forbidden? I have not been going to gen con the last few years but it might be amusing if I went and copped a press pass for the gaming den.

tussock · Post by **tussock** » Wed May 14, 2014 9:45 am

So I just checked the sample characters from the playtests, and between two years ago and six months ago ...

Nothing happened. Fighters do half damage against monsters with half hit points, because fireball also does half the traditional damage now so everyone else has to follow suit. They get less hit points and monsters do the same damage, but they get a healing surge and better AC to bring that back even again, at the cost of an action. Happily they get a free action once per combat to compensate for that. The way they accumulate class features changed name a couple times, but it's the same powers we've had in 3e and 4e, only even more nerftastic. Nothing new.

Just ... nothing. As much as he said he'd fix the math at the end, it really seems like all the changes have been sticking to the same math all along. You eventually get +5 to skill checks and, funnily enough, the DCs go up by +5 extra.

You get half the spells prepared, but get to fill all those slots twice each day. Which is less work to prep and also less flexible in play. So ... nice of him to force that on people who could've just left empty slots and done it anyway. Fixing the one-encounter day by creating the two-encounter day, rather than anything in the game world you'd actually want to move forward for.

Oh, and their presentation got worse all along, which is ... I don't even know why that is. Pathfinder's beta was so pretty people demanded to be able to buy it. But that's another place WotC/DnD ended up doing nothing.

It reads just like Mike Mearls' house rules for 4e to make it look like AD&D. Lame fighter powers stuck in a different box from the lame Wizard spells, only the math is ... typical of 4e if you cut the monster hit point bloat and player damage back. Just +1/4 level to everything instead of +1/2.

shadzar · Post by **shadzar** » Sat May 17, 2014 8:52 pm

Insomniac wrote:THEY HAVE BEEN WORKING ON THIS SHIT SINCE DECEMBER 2010.

WHAT THE FUCK HAVE THEY BEEN DOING?!?![/

stalling for paychecks until HASBRO reinstates the twice a year lay-offs. or blowing Greg Leeds in order to keep their job while producing no products at all.

Wiseman · Post by **Wiseman** » Mon May 19, 2014 2:08 am

If 5e does tank, what happens to the franchise? Does WOTC drop it?

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Mon May 19, 2014 2:13 am

Unlikely. Best case scenario is they lease it to someone else to have a crack at, more likely is they put it on a shelf somewhere and let it rot for a while (maybe using the licence just for video games and potential lawsuits), until people forget the travesties and "the time is right" for the next incarnation.

DSMatticus · Post by **DSMatticus** » Mon May 19, 2014 2:42 am

It's very likely that WotC has already decided to shelf the brand in anticipation of 5e tanking. Co-sponsoring Gen Con is not that expensive compared to paying Mearls and crew to twiddle their thumbs for as long as they have been, and if they had serious plans to launch a competitive line the presence and promotion at Gen Con would be completely worth it. I just do not know how to explain that decision in the absence of internal pessimism.

zugschef · Post by **zugschef** » Mon May 19, 2014 6:11 am

They simply need to come up with AD&D 3rd Edition. ^^

Ferret · Post by **Ferret** » Mon May 19, 2014 2:28 pm

DSMatticus wrote:It's very likely that WotC has already decided to shelf the brand in anticipation of 5e tanking. Co-sponsoring Gen Con is not that expensive compared to paying Mearls and crew to twiddle their thumbs for as long as they have been, and if they had serious plans to launch a competitive line the presence and promotion at Gen Con would be completely worth it. I just do not know how to explain that decision in the absence of internal pessimism.

I asked Mearls about this on Twitter, actually; why wizards wasn't a sponsor this year.

His reply: "We have a full slate of games and events set up - not sure what the difference is." https://twitter.com/mikemearls/status/4 ... 8274299904

unnamednpc · Post by **unnamednpc** » Mon May 19, 2014 2:57 pm

So this happened.

The thing that got a chuckle out of me was how they felt the need to namedrop Pathfinder in their press release. About the new edition of D&D. How the mighty etc. etc

Stubbazubba · Post by **Stubbazubba** » Mon May 19, 2014 3:51 pm

More info.

nockermensch · Post by **nockermensch** » Mon May 19, 2014 4:45 pm

$150 for the three core books, then. No pre-orders this time, but I'm positively surprised by seeing the books (cover art also look badass, at least on that small size).

Since they committed some iteration from their rules to paper, they can be judged by that, without the "but that was only a beta" excuse. I'll be waiting for the reviews.

angelfromanotherpin · Post by **angelfromanotherpin** » Mon May 19, 2014 5:00 pm

nockermensch wrote:$150 for the three core books, then.

Dubbleyoo. Tee. Eff.

Who decided that they needed a monetary barrier to entry that hella high?

brized · Post by **brized** » Mon May 19, 2014 5:02 pm

The three core books clock in at 320 pages each? If most of that pagecount isn't taken up by illustrations and formatting for increased readability, yuck! I thought it was clear the TTRPG industry needs to move away from bloat.

I'm also wondering how will they justify the price point when you can get the Pathfinder Core Book and Bestiary for the price of one of 5e's core books. I don't see anything about a SRD, either.

virgil · Post by **virgil** » Mon May 19, 2014 5:52 pm

Well, they were selling the 3E core books at a loss back during release so as to encourage people getting into the game. Otherwise, they would've been about $35 apiece back then, and those books were smaller and likely had larger print runs. Their bosses are most certainly as trusting in the game's success this time.

Looking at it, that's a comparable price and page count to Eclipse Phase's core book.