League Of Losers

MGuy · Post by **MGuy** » Fri Jun 20, 2014 6:38 pm

So the patch has come and everything has become buggy as hell as per usual. More importantly, the patch was supposed to change up what Nidalee oes. At least that's what a friend of mine (who actually plays Nidalee) said. Now since the patch has come out the only thing I, as a person who doesn't play nidalee, has noticed is that Nidalee can go cougar at level 1. Everything else seems the same. Now am I missing something or did the devs promise more than they could deliver?

...You Lost Me · Post by **...You Lost Me** » Fri Jun 20, 2014 7:33 pm

A 500 AP nidalee hitting with a max-range spear used to do 1.4k damage, but now does 1k damage. I also think cool down reduction changed.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Fri Jun 20, 2014 7:55 pm

Nidalee has a lot less she can do with her spears, and seemingly a lot less she can do aside from it.

In addition to weaker spears (although I though it was even weaker than that) it is also a narrower spear, so the missile width is smaller and you can dodge it more easily.

Don't actually know if she is OP or not, because I don't play mid, so my only experience is having a really really bad Aatrox top opponent practically duo lane with Nidalee Jungle against my Olaf. She did okay, but 1v1 I could have handled her just fine I think, so I think that top nidalee is stronger, but nothing special.

...You Lost Me · Post by **...You Lost Me** » Fri Jun 20, 2014 8:54 pm

The nerf hit her base spear damage much harder, but it scales to 300% with distance instead of 250%.

Noobs will still get sniped by her now.

Pseudo Stupidity · Post by **Pseudo Stupidity** » Fri Jun 27, 2014 11:24 am

New adc itemization is way more fun than the old "BT or BotRK" way.

New nid is...different. Her all-in damage is impressive but other than that I'm not as scared of her as I used to be. Bruiser nid is back and that's terribly unfun to play against, but bruiser nid is also hot garbage past midgame so oh well.

AP Janna support (flat AP quints/glyphs[seals if you want too]) is OP if your adc knows what to do with it. That shield is so huge that it doesn't matter how little Janna offers outside the shield at 1, the shield is carrying the lane.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Fri Jun 27, 2014 2:08 pm

Pseudo Stupidity wrote:New adc itemization is way more fun than the old "BT or BotRK" way.

I don't play a lot of adc but you must be smoking crack. It used to be that you build one of the two lifesteal items, then you built anything else in the game depending on what champ you are.

Now you cry sweet salty tears trying to develop a build that doesn't use lifesteal because every lifesteal item is shitstained shit that wastes a slot, but you still really want lifesteal, so you either three doran blade, or buy vamp scepter you never upgrade, or some other absurd shit while trying to work out your triforce/infinity edge/phantom/LW or infinity edge/phantom/LW/Buy two tears because now you have to buy the shitty bloodthirster.

I mean, it literally is identicaly fucking itemization for every character except that bloodthirster and BT are replaced with 2-3 dorans or a vamp scepter because the completed items are shit.

Pseudo Stupidity · Post by **Pseudo Stupidity** » Fri Jun 27, 2014 3:13 pm

I've seen double dorans + IE, BotRK rush, and BT rush. You don't have to build a lifesteal item as your first item anymore because you have the ability to go double/triple doran's and just sustain off that. I understand some people hate doran's stacking, but doran's stacking is cool because you trade gold and slots for early game power and it can help you stay relevant even if your lane is going bad.

There used to be two routes you could go as an ad, now there are 3 (though I do think BT rush will become less common as people realize the shield is kind of shit until later) competitive itemization routes.

I was so tired of fucking rushing BT. It was your best item on most adcs, and now that it got nerfed/lategame'd the routes are opening up and you get to make decisions. That's good! The new optimal sustained damage route is probably IE->PD->LW/BT->LW/BT->defensive item, but you also have BotRK->Ghostblade->LW->???->defensive item if you want to be a bursty assassin adc.

I don't know why you'd think BT is bad. That shield is fucking huge lategame and it's trivial to keep up before a fight unless there's a lot of poke going on. New BT is a fucking awesome item, it's just not a fucking awesome early game item.

Surgo · Post by **Surgo** » Fri Jun 27, 2014 3:50 pm

Damn Essence Reaver is one of the shittiest executions of a potentially good idea I've seen in a while, and this is Riot we're talking about so that's a pretty high bar.

Pseudo Stupidity · Post by **Pseudo Stupidity** » Fri Jun 27, 2014 11:03 pm

It sits in that weird place Executioners Calling does (used to?) sit at, it's a midgame item with no upgrade. Poor, poor essence reaver.

Surgo · Post by **Surgo** » Sat Jun 28, 2014 2:13 am

Executioner's calling was awesomely stat efficient though so it was worth buying, Essence Reaver doesn't even have that going for it.

edit: talking about S2 Exe calling here.

rampaging-poet · Post by **rampaging-poet** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 7:14 am

I played my first few ranked games today and found out that doing reasonably well as an ADC in normals means absolutely nothing. I understand the my role on the team is to take objectives (especially towers), but I really don't know how to contribute if I fall behind. My last game tonight was especially bad because I couldn't do enough damage to justify sticking with team (and likely feeding an enemy) or staying back to guard (and dying helplessly under my own turret without the enemy taking a scratch).

Is there anything in particular I should be doing when I fall behind the enemy team? Also, I understand I should be behind my team if at all possible, but are there any particular tricks of positioning I absolutely must practice before trying more ranked?

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 2:19 pm

You should basically never stay back to guard, you need to be with your team. You just stay back and avoid the enemy. If they all collapse on you they should die and lose the fight from going too hard on you.

Pseudo Stupidity · Post by **Pseudo Stupidity** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 3:16 pm

Falling behind as adc means you stick with your team and/or take up clearing sidelanes as they get to your turrets. An adc can usually clear a wave really quickly, so you just run back to base, make sure top/bot aren't pushing, then immediately group again.

Generally you stick with the team so you have a source of constant damage, even if your damage isn't the best. Plus, you're running heal so you have a lot of potential to save somebody else during a fight.

Positioning tips:

As an adc you should look at the other team and put them into a few categories, then play based on that.

1. Threat that relies on cooldowns to kill you (Vi with ult, Jax with jump, Amumu with ult, etc.). You stay away from these guys unless you know the CD they need to kill you is down.

2. Threats that are always a threat (enemy adc, low CD mage). You stay away from these guys unless they're CCed or you can kill them before they can kill you.

3. Non-threats. Supports who rely on skillshots to lock you down, people who can't gapclose/damage you, and most bruisers. You dps these guys and dodge whatever threats they have. If you aren't confident in dodging you stay away from them unless you know their threatening CDs are down or a teammate is between you and them.

In an ideal teamfight, you know where the enemies are and you know what CDs they have, you can skirt the edge doing damage to 3s while you wait for an opportunity to kill a 1 or a 2. The 2s you generally kill once a teammate gets on them and you know you have a damage or cc advantage to kill them, the 1s are the same thing, but you also go in if you know their CD is down and you can beat them to death/scoot out of range before it comes back.

Different adcs do this differently.

Lucian goes in on 1s if their CD is down and escapes when their CD is up with his dash (and he bursts 2s with his full combo if they step into range without backup). Vayne can ult + tumble into a fight and get right onto a 2 to burst them quickly if no other threats are in immediate range and then tumble back out and start being a normal adc. Cait hangs around the edge and uses her range/kiting abilities to kill 3s and 1s, and she just stays the fuck away from 2s because her dps isn't usually as high as theirs. Trist engages on 1s if she knows her ult can protect her and let her keep dpsing, then she plays like Cait.

It might feel shitty to have to wait for Vi to blow her ult to start fighting, but you'll notice a difference when every fight you join is also one you win. You're probably the richest person on the team, so your first priority is not letting that go to waste, and your second priority is killing everyone with your absurd damage.

Summoners and shit change how you can play (you can bait a lot of CD-reliant people and then kill them with flash if you have it and they don't), but that's how I tend to fight as an adc. If you play fights right as an adc you'll have a positive or even score even if your team is losing (unless your lane got stomped).

rampaging-poet · Post by **rampaging-poet** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 4:04 pm

Thanks, I'll keep that in mind. I hadn't thought to separate CD-dependant threats from people that are always a threat because outside the late-game teamfights they only ever engaged me with their CDs up. Managing enemy cooldowns is something I need to get better at as well.

That particular game probably died to lack of team coordination (Udyr kept trying to split-push and Pantheon kept signaling me to fall back then raged when I did), but I was also feeding pretty bad. I'll definitely play more normals before going back to ranked.

Pseudo Stupidity · Post by **Pseudo Stupidity** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 4:28 pm

rampaging-poet wrote:Thanks, I'll keep that in mind. I hadn't thought to separate CD-dependant threats from people that are always a threat because outside the late-game teamfights they only ever engaged me with their CDs up. Managing enemy cooldowns is something I need to get better at as well.

That particular game probably died to lack of team coordination (Udyr kept trying to split-push and Pantheon kept signaling me to fall back then raged when I did), but I was also feeding pretty bad. I'll definitely play more normals before going back to ranked.

If CD dependent threats always have their CDs up and aren't getting CCed/damaged to the point of you being able to deal with them then your team is fucking up bad. Being the adc involves a lot of hoping your front line/support is competent. If Jax is fighting people without using his counterstrike + jump combo or losing half his health then something has gone wrong.

I think the best adcs for an "everyone is shit" situation are Cait or Tristana (leaning towards Cait because of how strong her laning is). You should be able to peel at least one threat off of yourself and keep on fighting. There's no champ I like more against Rengar/Zed than Caitlyn since you can stand on a trap and auto-fuck their combo if they go for it.

If the problem is kitten herding (team just generally being dumb and not making plays) you need to call out fights, objectives, enemy mistakes, and your finished items. When you build an IE say "Got IE, let's drag" and your team will hopefully work with you. Enemy bot backs and your jungler is close? Call drag/turret on their back. Notice the enemy mid is low/out of mana and needs to go back? Shove bot, "On My Way" ping mid, ping the tower and roam up for it.

Most people are happy to follow calls, and the more those calls work the more likely they are to keep following.

rampaging-poet · Post by **rampaging-poet** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 8:19 pm

I did say that they always had the CDs up when they engaged me, not when I engaged them. Once teamfights start happening it's more common to go in when one of the enemies has something big on cooldown, but previously my "they will shred me" sense was firing based on how much damage they did in the laning phase. That could trigger some false positives - typically erring on the side of caution and staying away from the enemy jungler unless someone made a call and focused them or they obviously dove too deep into our line.

I have Trist and I've tried Cait. Both are fun, but I've held off on buying Cait because I already have quite a few ADCs: Ashe, Jinx, Tristana, Twitch, and Varus. I also have Teemo, but he works better top or mid where his short range is less of a liability. I'll practice with Tristana a little more.

I've been making sure to call backs, but hadn't thought to let my teammates know when I finish big items. I've bound the main signals to my middle mouse button so pinging enemy missing / on my way is easy.

Pseudo Stupidity · Post by **Pseudo Stupidity** » Wed Jul 02, 2014 3:10 pm

With the adcs you have I'd suggest practicing Tristana, Jinx, and Twitch. They fulfill different enough roles that getting extremely comfortable on those 3 champs will solve any problems you'll come up against.

Jinx is for teams where you trust your support and want to carry hard mid-late game.

Trist is for teams where your support can sustain you and/or can support early game fights and your comp can survive your weird midgame to reach late.

Twitch for games where you need to dominate all aspects, but don't expect their jungle to be visiting bot lane too often (late game jungler on other team). Twitch gets fucked by ganks extra hard. Thresh can make him viable against early game junglers.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Wed Jul 02, 2014 4:20 pm

I guess my main question is, are you maining adc? Because what you need to be a Main is different than what you need as your like 3rd or 5th role.

If you are maining adc, I would recommend buying Cait for certain, and maybe Lucian. Cait offers a playstyle that no one else really does, and while she is almost never the best adc, she is usually viable no matter which adc is currently nerfed to shit and which adc is currently op.

If it is your 5th role I just recommend picking one adc and playing them until you can play them as well as your main champs, and then picking a different adc.

rampaging-poet · Post by **rampaging-poet** » Wed Jul 02, 2014 8:42 pm

I've been maining ADC because I often play with a friend that likes to support. I'm pretty comfortable with Jinx (she was the first champion I bought), so I'll definitely practice Tristana and Twitch more. I'll look into getting Caitlyn when I have a little more IP - I bought a bunch of magic pen runes to finish my AP rune page before starting ranked in case I ended up mid.

I also plan to practice top and support more before going back to ranked so that I'm not screwed if someone else picks ADC in solo queue. I just bought Mordekaiser, and he's a lot of fun to play. I die too much with him though - I keep ending games with loopy KDAs like 14/11/17. I've been playing Trundle top for some time, but he gets wrecked by anyone with decent poke so I can't rely on him for ranked. For support, I'll practice Blitzcrank, Kayle, and Lulu.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Wed Jul 02, 2014 11:22 pm

Just tried out Jungle Nasus with new patch:

Set up:
1) Played a co-op v AI game as Nasus Jungle.
2) Took all buffs and all camps.
3) Never ganked even once.
4) Never touched enemy jungle at all. (probably wouldn't speed anything up anyway.)
9/21/0 masteries but with the jungle armor and blades and without the better unyielding ones. 6 health quints, 9 scaling health seals, 9 ad marks, 4.98% CD glyphes and the rest scaling magic resist. Starting Hunters and 4 health pots.

First back to buy: Kindle Gem and new replinshers thing. Second buy Ninja Tabis and complete Ancient Golem. Third buy Frozen Heart straight up (point of which is, you have infinite jungle sustain after Golem).

Results:
1) 76 stacks at 5 minutes.
2) At 15 Minutes approx 300 stacks.
3) 450 stacks at 20 minutes.
4) 500 stacks at 21:59.

Obviously, these are mostly ideal situations, so those numbers can expect to be depressed by the need to gank. And as before, Nasus is heavily subject to invades early, and if the enemy picks Udyr you might be about to get fucked. Especially because I was so greedy with my first back I was in legitimate fear for my life from golems on my last clear of them, a clear that is required for you to get kindle and replinshers, which is really a big deal, because either you lose 10% cd, which makes stacking way harder, or you lose replenshiers which is where all your sustain comes from. Maybe health seals instead of scaling might be worth, but I can't say for sure.

However, it isn't all doom and gloom, because I noticed many many occasions where I made up to 3 auto attacks on big creep making absolutely sure it was low enough, where if I had a better feel for the jungle as Nasus I maybe could have qed earlier. So even from relatively early on, there are some gains to be made just from playing a bunch of times to get the feel. Also I didn't kite at all at any point, and on the first run it may be a good idea in some places.

Ultimately it feels viable enough that it shouldn't be dismissed out of hand anywhere south of Diamond for sure. You could probably get away with it in low Diamond too, but whatever. And hey, as long as you pick Nasus, if you can draw two counter picks like a Darius and Udyr, that is already doing a lot for your team, and you could probably even catch up enough to out scale Udyr late in the jungle because even the most aggressive counter jungling isn't going to put you too far behind unless they are also crushing all your lanes.

...You Lost Me · Post by **...You Lost Me** » Sat Jul 05, 2014 12:02 am

My real worry with Nasus jungle is that he has no real ganking power. His only crowd control is a slow/ASslow, and the ASslow isn't useful if you're trying to chase a dude down. He also has no gapcloser and his AoE spell is weak with a big mana cost. Quill Coat would make that less sucky though, and his inherent lifesteal is probably nice now that machete has no heal.

Any thoughts on Quill Coat? It seems like Nautilus and Zac are way better, while Sejuani still sucks. As an aside, I think tanky junglers are much better now that the machete heal is replaced with DR.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Sat Jul 05, 2014 12:46 am

Yeah, I think the Machete and Quill are a hugely needed change to tank junglers. I mean, don't get me wrong, you can probably still Panth jungle or whatever, but it makes a lot of tankier jungles actually viable. I have no idea about Sej though. Don't really play her.

However, as far as Nasus ganking goes, it is actually no problem. First, you have to understand that you are actually a warwick type, you are going to be farming way more than most junglers and ganking less. Your team needs to understand this too. Secondly, when you do gank, it basically has to be past level 6 unless they are way out of position, you need to know where the other jungler is, and you are going all the way to tower. Wither is "only" the slowest longest lasting move speed slow in the game. It isn't a stun, but that is fine, because if you have two ranks in it, and you gank someone pushed up a bit, you slow them, e/q them, your other person does whatever they need to do (try dodging a skill shot while withered, it just doesn't happen without flashing) and you keep going all the way to their turret, and you get a second slow off just as they get under turret, and you ghost in and q them a third time and tank two shots while your mid/top does whatever.

I mean, I would say never bother ganking a Lucian Thresh bot ever, just farm. But you can do some serious stuff to midlaners and especially tops. And if you are farmed correctly, and the other jungler does show before you turret dive, they can't win. Like, there just is no turning on Nasus.

Surgo · Post by **Surgo** » Sat Jul 05, 2014 2:48 am

After the patch I played for the first time in over a month, trying Nautilus. He's definitely better but man he could really stand to do a bit more damage, like he used to be able to do.

Surgo · Post by **Surgo** » Sat Jul 05, 2014 11:09 pm

Seriously though aside from the insane Kayle nerfs (should have just hit the ult cooldown, not the righteous fury), I'm totally loving this patch. The new quill coat / spirit of the ancient golem is great; tank junglers (nautilus, volibear, cho'gath) are by far my favorite role to play in the game.

Now they just need to unnerf Feral Flare a little, unnerf jungle J4 a little, and it will be great!

Pseudo Stupidity · Post by **Pseudo Stupidity** » Wed Jul 09, 2014 3:14 pm

Tank junglers definitely work well now, to the point where I think Nautilus is viable again if everyone else on your team (except maybe the support) is a damage threat. His peel is the best in the game and he's very annoying to get by as a melee.

The buffs to tanky jungle and the changes to early game dragon do make me think Nasus and Cho could be a lot better again. They're both really good at taking Dragon at 6 (and everything later), which is now worth a solid amount of gold. Junglers who were good at teamfights took a big hit when early Dragon gold got cut down.

Kayle is gone and I'm glad, I always thought she was boring and predictable but effective.

Still waiting on big, meaningful Kassadin nerfs.

Mid lane itemization is more fun now that Athenes was nerfed. It used to be my go-to on pretty much everyone, but now there's a reason to take Morellonomicon or rush literally anything else in the game. The lack of easy MR in mid also makes it more exciting, mid laners die all over the place now since they're sitting at 30 or 42 MR until lategame. Fun!