Zero Buzz on 5E...Is It Dead Out The Gate?

[nockermensch]

I skimmed it and mostly every class seem somewhat awesome. From things like the totem barbarian getting an utility power like commune with nature to the monk having an option where they become element-benders.

Then again, the fighter's maneuvers are all low level stuff and my mind couldn't comprehend the warlock.

And what's more important: Since we don't have the monster manual yet, we can't run the SGT to see if these classes can actually play the game.

[virgil]

And what's more important: Since we don't have the monster manual yet, we can't run the SGT to see if these classes can actually play the game.

Does 5E even have an expectation of encounter guidelines the way 3E did? What are the chances that the game is about as clear as Rifts as far as informing you what a typical encounter is, and thus not be able to have a SGT to criticize it?

[pragma]

Thanks. Holy fuck, paladins kept a lot of shit I wouldn't have expected, like the add charisma bonus to all saves (and friendly saves within 10'/30' depending on level). And the Oath of the Ancients gets 'take half damage from all spells' at level 7, and that is also an aura.

Agreed, the save bonus struck me as a big deal too.

Sorcerer is weird. Font of Magic Gives 'sorcery points' which can be turned into bonus spells slots (of level 5 or less), and vice versa. Or spent on metamagic, though several of the options are bad or very circumstantial.

Yeah, jury's out on those. That said, swift spell and subtle spell are kind of cheap and kind of great. Swift spell lets you do double barreled casting as long as your sorcery and spell points hold out, which is potent.

Warlock spellcasting is a joke. those 1 to 4 spells come back as a long rest just like anyone else.

My read is that the class is supposed to be a half caster that relies extensively on invocations and cantrips. Sort of like an evil, flexible, paladin. That said, I didn't see any great damage/effect scaling in the invocations so the limited spell slots could still bite them.

Haven't done the math to see if you can make an effective warlock, but path of the blade is interesting in the sense that you can switch up the weapon you have on hand. It might be possible to make a good dex/cha warlock damage dealer.

[Voss]

I skimmed it and mostly every class seem somewhat awesome. From things like the totem barbarian getting an utility power like commune with nature to the monk having an option where they become element-benders.

Then again, the fighter's maneuvers are all low level stuff and my mind couldn't comprehend the warlock.

And what's more important: Since we don't have the monster manual yet, we can't run the SGT to see if these classes can actually play the game.

The warlock looks like a mess. The spells are so limited they might as well not have them, the arcanum isn't a spell slot but functions as one (which boggles my mind). And getting to choose between a better familiar (imp, pixie, psuedodragon or quasit), a summonable (bonus-less) melee weapon or more cantrips seems... yeah. Questionable. Some of the invocations seem nice, but the intent of the class seems to sit back and spam eldritch blast, and occasionally do things people care about.

I do think most of the classes* are a lot more relevant than the Basic Rules suggested, and there is at least a bit more depth to the game then previously suggested by the fucking designers. But... a lot of the math is still questionable, and so much defaults to MTP. Unless there is a lot of stuff hiding in the DMG to, well, actually play the game, I'm still dubious, despite being more impressed than previously.

*some are still really bad, like the champion fighter, or the beast master ranger- the animals fall off level appropriate really fast, and you have to sacrifice attacks to make them attack anyway. Seriously, whatever.
On the other side, even with the severely limited spell casting abilities for the eldritch knight fighter and the arcane trickster rogue, I simply can't see how the other paths are balanced with them. 'My rogue climbs at full speed and gets a bonus action to pick pockets'. 'Mine casts sleep. Fuck you.'

I still really dislike the feat design- swapping being level appropriate on the RNG for an array of abilities is questionable at best. But some of the feats are ridiculously good, to the point that it feels like a lose/lose choice. Whichever option you pick, you're losing out.


I am highly amused that a high level paladin can punch people into hell (Damning Smite: +5d10 damage and if they're reduced to 50 hp or less, they're banished to the Nine Hells). On one level, it is amusing. On another it is the new 'kill orc babies' ethics debate.

[Voss]

And what's more important: Since we don't have the monster manual yet, we can't run the SGT to see if these classes can actually play the game.

Does 5E even have an expectation of encounter guidelines the way 3E did? What are the chances that the game is about as clear as Rifts as far as informing you what a typical encounter is, and thus not be able to have a SGT to criticize it?

Yes. They're really bad. But they do exist and have been put in an article.
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/Article.aspx ... l/20140707

On the monster side, the CR # is the level you should be encountering the critter. The XP amount is part of a budget for Easy/Moderate/Challenging/Hard encounters based on level and multiplied by # of characters.

So at first level, a pair of hobgoblins is a moderate encounter, and 4 is a challenging encounter. 4 has a reasonable chance of producing a TPK. At the same time, 4 goblins is moderate, 8 is challenging. Sleep should drop 3 goblins instantaneously, so... yeah. Difficultly seems heavily based on not casting level appropriate spells.

Now the fun part is they claim to still be working on that for the DMG. But the classes were definitely finalized at that point, and the monsters had to be (at least) almost done. Moving some numbers around on a chart isn't likely to produce viable results if the real variables are already set.

[Ferret]

Warlock spellcasting is a joke. those 1 to 4 spells come back as a long rest just like anyone else.

My read is that the class is supposed to be a half caster that relies extensively on invocations and cantrips. Sort of like an evil, flexible, paladin. That said, I didn't see any great damage/effect scaling in the invocations so the limited spell slots could still bite them.

Haven't done the math to see if you can make an effective warlock, but path of the blade is interesting in the sense that you can switch up the weapon you have on hand. It might be possible to make a good dex/cha warlock damage dealer.

Important to note that in an article authored AFTER the document we're looking at was supposedly released, Mearls said Warlocks were on Short Rest spell refreshed, so that's the currently accepted theory for them.

Warlocks are the only folks getting +Spellcasting Mod to damage (Edit; not quite true. Evocation wizards get this feature at LVL 10; Warlocks can take it as an Invocation at level 2). I'm curious how that is going to interact with Eldritch Blast.

Eldritch Blast is a 1d10 damage ray cantrip. As you level up, it doesn't scale damage, it adds rays. There's an argument to be made that each ray should recieve +Spellcasting mod (since you can target the rays independently, but there is specific attribution that you CAN hit the same target with each one).

At upper levels, you could be doing 5d10+(5xMod) which ain't too terrible for an all day long ability. Certainly I think it stacks up nicely vs. Sneak Attack, and with intelligent feat choices (WarCaster, again) you can do that on opportunity attacks and with another feat (Sentinel) cause enemies struck by your ability to have speed 0 until your next turn.

Compare this to Gyor's take on paladin damage stacking over at ENWorld:

Paladins with Great Weapon Fighting style are brutal, they going at adding dice to thier weapon attacks all of which benifit from GWFS)


picture a Paladin with hitting an enemy with a great sword for 2D6 + 1D8 + 2D4 + 1D8 + Strength Mod x 2.

That's 2D6 for the greatsword, 1D8 Improved Smite, 2D4 elemental weapon, 1D8 for Divine Favour, and Strength Mod, with 2 attacks. And then add in say a 5th level smite too. And reroll 1 and 2s on all of it.

Gyor's take is even a little underpowered. It would actually be 2D6+Mod+5d8 Divine Smite+1D8 Improved Divine Smite + (5d10+rider) Smite Spell + 2d4 (Elemental Weapon) + 1d8 concentration spell effect, reroll ones and twos.

And that's one attack in your Attack action - you have two.

In short, paladins are super badass for like two attacks per day.

[Rawbeard]

Holy shit, rogues and fighters can get minor spellcasting. Pants will be shat.

WTF, multiclass spellcasting looks decent at first glance. What is this? Bizzarro 5e?

[virgil]

Yes. They're really bad. But they do exist and have been put in an article.
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/Article.aspx ... l/20140707

treat this like any other piece of DMing advice we offer. Use it if it improves your game. Ignore it if it gets in the way.

That article is downright encumbered with this kind of language. If the DMG ends up even close to that, then we're going to have a 2E problem; where a notable fraction of the book is constantly reminding the reader to ignore the rules.

[nockermensch]

Of course, we'll need to see how 5e will deal with errata. Some stuff seems very powerful, while others are pathetic (Swift Quiver ranger spell, fuck that shit). Some are hilariously unclear: Can a 14th level evoker fire maximized damage cantrips all day long with overchannel? Assuming eldritch blast gets the int bonus added to each bolt (another unclear point), that would mean 45 force damage from 120' range whenever the wizard doesn't have something more interesting to do.

EDIT:

Yes. They're really bad. But they do exist and have been put in an article.
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/Article.aspx ... l/20140707

treat this like any other piece of DMing advice we offer. Use it if it improves your game. Ignore it if it gets in the way.

That article is downright encumbered with this kind of language. If the DMG ends up even close to that, then we're going to have a 2E problem; where a notable fraction of the book is constantly reminding the reader to ignore the rules.

They call this "modular design".

[Maxus]

Holy shit, rogues and fighters can get minor spellcasting. Pants will be shat.

My dick is so hard right now.

[Dean]

Sorcerer is weird. Font of Magic Gives 'sorcery points' which can be turned into bonus spells slots (of level 5 or less), and vice versa. Or spent on metamagic, though several of the options are bad or very circumstantial.

Yeah, jury's out on those. That said, swift spell and subtle spell are kind of cheap and kind of great. Swift spell lets you do double barreled casting as long as your sorcery and spell points hold out, which is potent.

No it doesn't. On my initial readthrough I thought the same thing and assumed Sorcerors with Draconic Origin would be real badasses. Some spell recovery, AC 19 with Mage armor and their natural armor, and two spells a round. Unfortunately in the swift action rules they specify that any swift action spellcasting prohibits you from casting any other spell that round for no reason. The next sentence then says that that was a lie and that you can cast cantrips only. So it's not really double barrelled spellcasting it's one spell and then a magic missile or whatever. Even that might make them the characters with the highest offensive output in the game.

Overall I have to admit the ruleset isn't terrible. It's not good, it's not particularly interesting and the rules are all so vague that they answer any in depth question with a befuddled shrug but it's useable. And useable is a bar I'm very impressed they reached.

The thing I like the most is that they offer Paladin level spellcasting to almost every class if you think to ask for it.

[Voss]

Yeah, jury's out on those. That said, swift spell and subtle spell are kind of cheap and kind of great. Swift spell lets you do double barreled casting as long as your sorcery and spell points hold out, which is potent.

Actually there is a catch on this one- see casting times for spells (page 79 in the basic rules: if you cast a spell with a bonus action, you can't cast another spell (except cantrips). So you can attack & cast or cantrip & cast, but no double spell actions.

Dean has it mostly right, but magic missile isn't a cantrip. And Mage armor and the sorcerers natural armor shouldn't stack [both set your AC to 13 + Dex], which means AC 16 (which admittedly is better than everyone else who isn't a cleric, valor bard or a dedicated melee class). Draconic sorcerers just don't have to burn a slot on mage armor.


One thing I have notice with the alpha doc is several things changed from that to the basic rules (rogue sneak attack got better, mountain dwarves got their armor proficiencies) and there are probably other changes I haven't noticed. And I'm sure more for the transition to the final PH. [And hopefully not fucktons of errata changing it more]


But I am impressed that a lot of the complicated magic got put back in. After 4e, the play tests and the basic rules, I'm genuinely surprised to see proper necromancy, conjuration and illusions. They aren't perfect, but the fact that Seeming, Sending, Sequester and Shapechange are actual things is actually a relief.

That they're kind of sort of admitting that magic is for everybody (at least as an option) is also something of a relief. This could definitely be better, and its unbalanced as fuck if people take the stupid fighter rather than the better fighter, but it is an improvement.
I think they should have gone further with the Barbarian totem warrior, (because frankly spirit seeker is pants). but the eagle totem spirit is crazy. Free dash on top of normal move + attack, and faster movement and extra attacks at level 5- that means going crazy rampage nuts all over the battlefield. Anything within 80' gets a crazy fucker in the face, who can just take advantage whenever, and deal bonus damage on top.


@nocker- the evoker ability actually seems non ambiguous, as cantrips are clearly defined as spells. It may not be what they intended, but it seems pretty clear. The warlock's Eldritch bolt is a bit more troublesome, but hopefully the final version has better wording (and there are areas of the alpha that are cleaned up in the basic rules which justify that hope to some extent). But as written, you get the bonus damage "on a hit," and since you roll to hit with each ray... yeah, higher level warlocks have a machine-gun that pretty much outperforms most things on the table.


Some of the feats aren't as bad as I thought. Some are clearly crazy (great weapon fighter), others are sneakily crazy (observant: put this on cleric, and their passive perception goes to 18, then right up to 20 pretty damn quick. Fuck you, no sneaking). With the right optimization of odd numbers, the feats that give +1 stat and some other bonus are easy to snaffle. Hey, look its that 'o' word that supposedly doesn't happen in 5e.

[Ferret]

I think somebody asked about the Overchannel/Cantrip thing on twitter, and I'm -pretty- sure the answer was "RAW, yeah, but nerf it if you need to."

18th level wizards can cast shield as a reaction all day. This is kinda cool, but sucks they have to wait until 18th for it.


Feats are powerful enough that I think they make a compelling argument for delaying maxing your primary stat, though, which is pleasing to me.

[Dean]

A thing I am curious about is the Human racial feat. As humans you can get a racial feat and the way that they walk through character creation you choose your race before you have a class or proficiencies or even stats. Does this mean I can only get a feat with no prerequisites of any kind or can I wait until my character -exists- before choosing my feat.

Obviously there is no answer in the text for me, it's just something I'm curious about.

[Voss]

I think somebody asked about the Overchannel/Cantrip thing on twitter, and I'm -pretty- sure the answer was "RAW, yeah, but nerf it if you need to."

18th level wizards can cast shield as a reaction all day. This is kinda cool, but sucks they have to wait until 18th for it.

Pretty meaningless to be honest. The Light cleric is imposing disadvantage as a reaction at level 1, and can push AC into the low 20s. This is probably my biggest problem with the rule set- they're handing out equivalent (and more or less powerful) abilities pretty much at random with no conception of what the abilities are worth. I know they know what a level appropriate ability is in theory, but they can't seem to identify them.

Feats are powerful enough that I think they make a compelling argument for delaying maxing your primary stat, though, which is pleasing to me.

A few do. But being not level appropriate until level 12 (which in a lot of campaigns is functionally equivalent to 'never') rubs me the wrong way.

But quite a few feats are shit. Athlete for example, gives +1 str or dex, Standing from prone costs 5' of movement rather than 10, and you can make a running jump after moving 5' rather than 10'. Whatever. I'll take the +2.

Some, like duelist (reaction to gain +proficiency in AC when attacked when wielding a single weapon) are feat taxes, pure and simple.

The 'armored' line that gives proficiency in various types of armor and a +1 stat bonus might be worthwhile, but you have to build the character to take advantage of the odd number from level 1. An organic character is almost never going to benefit from this sort of thing.

But the real lesson is that anyone who claims that 5e character creation doesn't involve optimization is either deluded, lying or smoking some really heavy shit. Because choosing a race/class and planning for ability increases and/or feats, and sorting through spells and crap involves a lot of groundwork to make something functional.* And it matters a lot at low levels, because even by the book encounters (especially published encounters!) will eat you if your character sucks ass.

*obviously not as much as pathfinder. But you can't just slap shit together on a whim and go. For all that there are less options, there are fucking lot of traps.

[Ferret]

How level appropriate do you have to be, though? Monster AC isn't crazy, and they look to all have at least one abysmal defense; there's a certain level of least effective dose here for your primary stat.

Edit: I think I have to acknowledge the real and immediate impact of needing to max AC and HP, though, to survive closet hobgoblins and avoid being oneshot. For all that the 'expected start' is 3rd level, I know my DM is going to make us slog up from 1st unless we're jumping in at like 10th. :-/

[Voss]

How level appropriate do you have to be, though? Monster AC isn't crazy, and they look to all have at least one abysmal defense; there's a certain level of least effective dose here for your primary stat.

Its hard to say without knowing what higher level monsters really look like (especially after the 4e fiasco where higher level monster math was fucked).
The problem is most classes (except the bad fighter and the mundane rogue) want 2 stats maxed, and a third (usually Con) as high as possible. They really have to keep up on attack, defense and hit points, and that is already a tough choice that is far beyond your resources to actually do. Putting more demands on the same resource to grab the feats that don't suck means being really behind on something that matters, if not multiple somethings. Even shitball mook monsters like the hobgoblins can do a fuckton of damage, so you can't skimp on defense or hit points. And any situation where you can't preemptively burn them down or take them out of the fight is a chance for PCs to start dropping, and a TPK to ensue.

Its one of the reasons the light armor classes (and shieldless classes, which is all of them) are a fucking problem to me. Unless you are a rogue, or have really big plans for spells that don't rely on attack rolls OR save DCs, your Dex is essentially set in stone until level 12 minimum- i.e., realistically it does not change. For medium and heavy armor classes... well, so what? You've got what you need out of AC at character creation. That fact that the cleric is mediocre with weapon attacks kinda doesn't matter, because boatload of spells, and at level 5, cantrips are better than weapons. Just keep on with half-plate, shield and an empty hand for spell casting.

Oddly enough, the alternate 'versatile human' is looking a lot better with this information. You grab the feat that matters to your build at level one, and cope with a max stat, 14 dex (or min it if you have heavy armor and need strength) and 16 con, and fuck everything else. But that is pretty much the only place you can get ahead without sacrificing anything (well, beyond the stats that don't help your class).


Where is this 'expected start' at level 3 coming from? I'd certainly encourage it, but I can't find it anywhere in the actual documents. They actually say straight up

Typically, a character starts at 1st level

[CapnTthePirateG]

So it looks like some of the old super broken spells are back.

Magic Jar was changed to have a 100 foot possession range, but you can pick the target and they have to save with Charisma.

Shapechange lets you dumpster dive through the Monster Manual and replace you with any monster in the game, which I suspect could be really good.

You can make as many simulacrums of yourself as you want. The simulacrums have your full casting ability, so they can make simulacrums of you too. You can repeat this until you have an infinite army of yous that follow your command, with the drawback that they have half your hit point maximum. But you do not care because you can cast shapechange and so can they. This makes you a winner.

But let's go back to the simulacrum thing. You make one simulucrum, with instructions to double itself. It will be told to have the doubles double it, with the end result that you have a horde of simulucra building themselves while you do nothing. It costs 100 gp per simulacrum, but they have the spellcasting of a 13th level wizard so it's not like they can't get their own money. Thus you can get an eternal army of clones with 1/4 your hp, who can do things like animate dead for you so you have a massive army of the dead, or just plain cast spells on your behalf.

So in other words, 5e D&D: Wizards win.

[Voss]

100 gp per level of the creature, which is a bit higher drain on your cash reserves.

If it makes you feel any better, bards can also do it, because they can just yoink spells from other lists.

The all bard party: literally everything.

[nockermensch]

100 gp per level of the creature, which is a bit higher drain on your cash reserves.

If it makes you feel any better, bards can also do it, because they can just yoink spells from other lists.

The all bard party: literally everything.

Elan: "Will this story have a happy ending?"
The Oracle: "Yes, it will--for you, at least."

Fuck the Oracle and its damn omniscience!

[CapnTthePirateG]

Do we even know how much money people are supposed to get?

[Voss]

Do we even know how much money people are supposed to get?

Not a clue. We know that magic items aren't for sale [supposedly, anyway. I'll be fascinated to see how quickly they break this concept], monster equipment is essentially worthless and the real money is in gems and trade goods. But... actually, turning it into spell components is probably the only value money has other than paying lifestyle costs. So you could have a fuckton of money to turn in simulacrums, actually.


Speaking of the bard (again), I'm amused by the intro description which clearly suggests that there should be three subclasses- the loremaster, the skald and the 'scoundrel enchanter.' Oops, ran out of time and one got axed, apparently. Or got stuffed into the DMG with the Death cleric and an anti-paladin-ish thing, which supposedly is something that happened (Evil has to be segregated, right?)

[CapnTthePirateG]

But there's a spell in the PHB that literally requires human sacrifice. How could the Death cleric be that much worse?

That spell is Army of the Dead for those who are wondering. And yes, it sucks.

[Previn]

Do we even know how much money people are supposed to get?

Level 2 rewards from LMoP : Escort some dude for 50 gp for the party, NPC with 3 gp and 15 sp, 50 gp reward for returning supplies plus 600 cp and 115 sp and a statue worth 40 gp. There may be more in terms of stuff you loot/sell but not much. That's 175 gp. Plus some healing potions which someone will buy if you real want to off load them.

[Voss]

But there's a spell in the PHB that literally requires human sacrifice. How could the Death cleric be that much worse?

That spell is Army of the Dead for those who are wondering. And yes, it sucks.

Because... it's WotC and evil PCs are a thing that has to be hidden away because reasons.

That spell is thematically awesome. The rules are incoherent as balls, though. It actually runs riot over everything.... until a level 1 cleric shows up and starts throwing radiant damage around. If they shake the rules out, it has a lot of potential.

For people who haven't seen it:
A high level necromancer any wizard (or bard) sacrifices a human being (yeah, the material component) at a battlefield or cemetery, or other place with 100+ corpses to create a 50' radius area (... I think. You target a point and the 'army covers the ground within 50' of the point you choose'). And at that point it does area damage (4d6 upon entering or starting their turn) to anyone inside, with save for half and not being knocked prone (being prone in the area deals yet more damage, 4d6 at the end of the turn). No stats, but radiant damage clears away the undead in 5' sections (this gets vague). For no apparent reason the 'army' "stands 10' tall" and nothing besides radiant damage does anything. The army is difficult terrain, and grants cover, and the wizard an move the army, and it squeezes through small gaps and around corners and shit. The idea is a fantastic zombie-pocalypse spell, but parts of the rules just seem to be missing, are incoherent or are in some way stupid. (Fireball does nothing because only radiant! Mundane people are just plain fucked.... well, kinda. Double moves to run away for an hour and you're fine.

It is a lovely illustration of how fucked normal armies are in the face of a high level wizard. "Ok, you've been fighting all day, and now I'm bored. Have fun with your dead!" And regiments die horribly and the army breaks.

Level 2 rewards from LMoP : Escort some dude for 50 gp for the party, NPC with 3 gp and 15 sp, 50 gp reward for returning supplies plus 600 cp and 115 sp and a statue worth 40 gp. There may be more in terms of stuff you loot/sell but not much. That's 175 gp. Plus some healing potions which someone will buy if you real want to off load them.

I'd hurt people if they started selling off healing potions. [Though under 5e, healing potions are mundane equipment, so can be bought/sold... if the party really wants to throw away useful resources.]

That is a really shitty payout, though. Those suits of plate and half-plate are going to take a long time to buy.