Zero Buzz on 5E...Is It Dead Out The Gate?

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Dogbert
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Post by Dogbert »

FrankTrollman wrote:Wizards and shit get real ultimate power from spell research and item creation and crap. That takes time.
I guess I should re-phrase, my question was aimed specifically at magic item crafting (like scrolls). I see no point in making longer down times. What, is the sucker's player supposed to start bullying you if you declare you're taking six fictional days (that will only take five real-time seconds)? Are all adventures supposed to be Tolkien-wank on a timer and "filled with urgency" as to "not having time to lose"?

Limiting spells lvl 6-9 to one per day is a limit on casters' power. I see the purpose in that.

Increasing the length of magic item downtimes is something with no actual consequences barring very specific circumstances. I don't see the purpose in that.
Last edited by Dogbert on Sun Aug 03, 2014 8:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Voss »

Dogbert wrote:
FrankTrollman wrote:Wizards and shit get real ultimate power from spell research and item creation and crap. That takes time.
I guess I should re-phrase, my question was aimed specifically at magic item crafting (like scrolls). I see no point in making longer down times. What, is the sucker's player supposed to start bullying you if you declare you're taking six fictional days (that will only take five real-time seconds)? Are all adventures supposed to be Tolkien-wank on a timer and "filled with urgency" as to "not having time to lose"?

Limiting spells lvl 6-9 to one per day is a limit on casters' power. I see the purpose in that.

Increasing the length of magic item downtimes is something with no actual consequences barring very specific circumstances. I don't see the purpose in that.
Ah. I see what you mean. No, I can't even guess at the downtime increase for scrolls. It's particularly confusing when you consider that the wizard (and also the spell focused druid) has a way of getting spell slots back (1/day, during short rest, they can regain spell slots = 1/2 level, max 5th). on top of that, the major spell casting classes (except sorcerer) can also ritually cast spells, which doesn't even eat spell slots at all, just an extra 10 minute casting time, and in the case of wizards, the spells don't even need to be prepared, just in the wizard's spell book. Now a lot of spells can't be ritually cast, but an awful lot of utility spells (like alarm, comprehend languages and detect magic) can, which gets rid of the need for emergency utility scrolls. A wizard or knowledge domain cleric can seriously identify 5 pieces of the party's loot so far while the Muggles are going through their short rest so they can be semi-useful again, and this doesn't impact their ability to contribute to the rest of the adventure at all.

Warlocks (of the right pact and with the right invocations) get the ability to learn any ritual spell of any class. Which includes nicking the Find Steed spell that summons paladin warhorses (or, cast at a higher level, a unicorn or nightmare), which they can do at significantly lower levels than a paladin. A warlock can cast the spell at level 3, rather than the level 5 a paladin needs, and can pick up a nightmare as a permanent mount at level 9 rather than 17.

Some creative use of rituals makes for some ridiculous ways of making the game a lot easier- like conjuring unseen servant every hour so you can have something try to open doors for you, thus avoiding potential traps, and fuck-ton of divination spells are rituals.
Last edited by Voss on Sun Aug 03, 2014 11:34 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by hogarth »

Dogbert wrote:Is there a point to having crafts take so long now? All they do is making downtime last longer... except downtime happens off-camera so they did effectively nothing.
The point is to have a system that discourages players from creating a bunch of magic items in the middle of an adventure while explaining why people in days of olde had no problem churning out the tons of items you find as loot.
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Post by ishy »

Well in the old days, if you, as a wizard, crafted scrolls to get around your limited spells per day, the DM was supposed to not let you play in the campaign for a few months.

Since D&D Next is all about bad old school ideas .....
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Post by Voss »

Sure, but the trick is, the wizard has two in-built methods to get around limited spells per day, which makes scrolls unnecessary.

I definitely think this another caster edition, however. Paladin or Warlock is about as non-magical as you want to get. The Alpha war domain cleric is probably better, however. Full casting rather than half casting is a big deal, and the war cleric can spawn extra attacks (Wis mod) times per day [which is a big deal a level 1], spiritual weapon (for more extra attacks), divine favor (which is a paladin spell, +1d8 damage for all weapon attacks), divine strike at 8th (+1d8 extra damage on all weapon attacks) and their channel divinity lets them toss +10 on an attack roll.



Back to the economy for a bit. Oh, hey. Fabricate is in the alpha doc. And if you have the tool proficiency, you can make jewelry, weapons or armor, and just need the raw materials. That 300 days for plate mail? Nope. 7th level wizard (or slightly higher level bard, to yoink the spell), 10 minutes.

The really fantastic bit is it puts no upper limit on the value of the object. Just that if you are working with metal stone or other mineral, the final object can be no larger than medium (a single 5' cube). So... yeah. I have no idea what that means for something like jewelry. Is there an upper limit of 10,000 gp? 50,000? No clue.

Also combines really well with Amanuenis for your art forgery factory, as you can just make whatever amounts of ink and blank paper.
Though money aside, that cantrip is a word shaper. Being able to mass produce religious, philosophical and education materials with fucking cantrips can reshape entire societies as well as being an infinite money loop.
Last edited by Voss on Mon Aug 04, 2014 1:28 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by animea90 »

Voss wrote:Sure, but the trick is, the wizard has two in-built methods to get around limited spells per day, which makes scrolls unnecessary.

I definitely think this another caster edition, however. Paladin or Warlock is about as non-magical as you want to get. The Alpha war domain cleric is probably better, however. Full casting rather than half casting is a big deal, and the war cleric can spawn extra attacks (Wis mod) times per day [which is a big deal a level 1], spiritual weapon (for more extra attacks), divine favor (which is a paladin spell, +1d8 damage for all weapon attacks), divine strike at 8th (+1d8 extra damage on all weapon attacks) and their channel divinity lets them toss +10 on an attack roll.
The big difference is casters will be a lot more versatile early on. In earlier editions low level casters had to choose between dedicated their few spell slots to combat spells or utility spells. Now many of those utility spells can be cast as rituals and you can regain some spell slots while resting. This allows casters to dedicate more of their spells per day to combat while still having amazing utility.

BTW, can you buy scrolls? Because now there is very little for a caster to spend money on and I see no reason a wizard would not just buy a ton of scrolls if he can.
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Post by Voss »

animea90 wrote:
Voss wrote:Sure, but the trick is, the wizard has two in-built methods to get around limited spells per day, which makes scrolls unnecessary.

I definitely think this another caster edition, however. Paladin or Warlock is about as non-magical as you want to get. The Alpha war domain cleric is probably better, however. Full casting rather than half casting is a big deal, and the war cleric can spawn extra attacks (Wis mod) times per day [which is a big deal a level 1], spiritual weapon (for more extra attacks), divine favor (which is a paladin spell, +1d8 damage for all weapon attacks), divine strike at 8th (+1d8 extra damage on all weapon attacks) and their channel divinity lets them toss +10 on an attack roll.
The big difference is casters will be a lot more versatile early on. In earlier editions low level casters had to choose between dedicated their few spell slots to combat spells or utility spells. Now many of those utility spells can be cast as rituals and you can regain some spell slots while resting. This allows casters to dedicate more of their spells per day to combat while still having amazing utility.
Uh, yeah. Mind you, fewer spells have ritual versions than you might expect, which limits the utility a bit, but it does explain why detect magic is level 1. The slot recharge mechanic (which is unique to wizards, caster focus druids, and sort of sorcerers), on the other hand, are a pretty big deal. For non-wizards, the fact that you still have to prepare spells to use the ritual version is also a big limit, since the number of spells prepared is pretty harsh... which is why a lot of non-wizards get domain or oath spells, I suppose.
BTW, can you buy scrolls? Because now there is very little for a caster to spend money on and I see no reason a wizard would not just buy a ton of scrolls if he can.
In theory, yes...? Potions and scrolls are specifically called out as things that could be purchased or sold, but the text suggests even common magic is rare and 'beyond simple gold.'

Mind you, the playtest magic item pdf had spell scrolls as uncommon (rather than common), and valued at 100-500 gold each, so... yeah. Maybe not much buying going on. Along with a suggestion in the buying 'magic items section' that rather than being for sale, a PC might give you a scroll if you finish a quest for them.

So even with scrolls, the game's default assumptions are leaning toward no. If you want to break the gold economy, you can just do that (with magic), but getting magic items is being presented as significantly more difficult. But I bet the modules will hand them out like candy.


As a note, when it comes to the spell casting classes, I have really mixed feelings on the druid. At base, its really kind of terrible, limited to hide or leather armor + shield (so AC 17)*, and a lot of spells are meh (level 1-4 feel like a hybrid cleric/wizard with the interesting bits taken out). But it can seriously starting summoning shit at 3rd level with Conjure Animals, and just order things to eat face.

*but weapon and shield is a serious issue for casters. You can take a feat to get around it, but that only (and specifically) gets around somatic components, not material components, which also need a free hand (though it can be the same one used for somatic components). Holy symbols (as in clerics and paladins**) get a pass on that, since they can be worn instead of held, but every one else is kind of screwed on this, unless they go for the empty hand+shield option.

**paladins get a double pass on this, because a lot of their unique spells (and they get a lot of unique spells) are verbal only. But most are +xdx damage when they stab you, which isn't the most fantastic kind of spells.
Last edited by Voss on Mon Aug 04, 2014 2:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Ferret »

There's also the Ritual Caster feat, which allows even mundanes to get in on the hot hot Ritual action - it lets you get a Ritual Book and cast out of it just like you were a wizard or warlock. I could see just about anybody taking it with their 8th level feat if for some reason there wasn't a Wizard in the party.
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Post by pragma »

Voss wrote:*but weapon and shield is a serious issue for casters. You can take a feat to get around it, but that only (and specifically) gets around somatic components, not material components, which also need a free hand (though it can be the same one used for somatic components). Holy symbols (as in clerics and paladins**) get a pass on that, since they can be worn instead of held, but every one else is kind of screwed on this, unless they go for the empty hand+shield option.
I think bards particularly suffer here because their focus is a musical instrument, which presumably requires two hands to play. Trumpets seem to be the only reasonable one-handed option for valor bards.

Of course, a spell component pouch can bring that down to just one hand for casting, but it's still a painfully action-expensive transition from swordfighting to spellslinging. It makes me miss the somewhat clearer economy of minor actions.
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Post by Voss »

pragma wrote:
Voss wrote:*but weapon and shield is a serious issue for casters. You can take a feat to get around it, but that only (and specifically) gets around somatic components, not material components, which also need a free hand (though it can be the same one used for somatic components). Holy symbols (as in clerics and paladins**) get a pass on that, since they can be worn instead of held, but every one else is kind of screwed on this, unless they go for the empty hand+shield option.
I think bards particularly suffer here because their focus is a musical instrument, which presumably requires two hands to play. Trumpets seem to be the only reasonable one-handed option for valor bards.

Of course, a spell component pouch can bring that down to just one hand for casting, but it's still a painfully action-expensive transition from swordfighting to spellslinging. It makes me miss the somewhat clearer economy of minor actions.
Instruments give me a headache all around. They sub for spell components, but take up both hands in most cases, and sometimes also the mouth. The flute player shouldn't be able to do anything, unless it is a material component only spell. And any spell that has material components that cost money is impossible to use without a free hand in any case, because you can't sub those out.

As for actions... Yeah. Vagueness actually wins here- going from spell to swords isn't a problem, because attacks specifically include drawing a weapon (though you don't find that out in the 'attack' action- it's in 'use an object' instead). But there isn't any real indication that sheathing a weapon is part of any other action. Or indeed that you can take one hand off a two handed weapon- that is honestly an assumption on my part.
Last edited by Voss on Mon Aug 04, 2014 6:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by animea90 »

pragma wrote:
Voss wrote:*but weapon and shield is a serious issue for casters. You can take a feat to get around it, but that only (and specifically) gets around somatic components, not material components, which also need a free hand (though it can be the same one used for somatic components). Holy symbols (as in clerics and paladins**) get a pass on that, since they can be worn instead of held, but every one else is kind of screwed on this, unless they go for the empty hand+shield option.
I think bards particularly suffer here because their focus is a musical instrument, which presumably requires two hands to play. Trumpets seem to be the only reasonable one-handed option for valor bards.

Of course, a spell component pouch can bring that down to just one hand for casting, but it's still a painfully action-expensive transition from swordfighting to spellslinging. It makes me miss the somewhat clearer economy of minor actions.
Just buy a hands free harmonica. Any valor bard interested in using two hands for weapons can do so.

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Post by Ferret »

Does anybody disagree that the INTENTION behind the War Caster feat was that you could cast spells without swapping away from your weapon/shield, and they just fucked up the wording?
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Post by Voss »

Ferret wrote:Does anybody disagree that the INTENTION behind the War Caster feat was that you could cast spells without swapping away from your weapon/shield, and they just fucked up the wording?
Yeah, fuck intention. That is an argument that isn't winnable and isn't sane, as it is innately based on not having evidence.


Warcaster is perfectly clear- you get to perform somatic components of spells while holding weapons/shields.* That spells can also have material components is pretty obvious. Pick combat spells that don't have material components if you're also going to blow a feat on casting weapon/shield style. It isn't like they're rare.

If they had wanted the feat to ignore material component restrictions as well, it would have taken 2 words. ('and material,' between 'somatic' and 'components.'

*and get the concentration bonus and the spells as AoO.

Now, to give you some hope with a tautology- the PH alpha rules are alpha rules. It might change. But don't pin your hope on what you think the 'intent' is.
Last edited by Voss on Mon Aug 04, 2014 9:27 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by fectin »

You could also just duct tape attach in some unspecified way your material component to your shield. Nothing says you actually have to keep them in a spell component pouch.

Also, can bards not just sing anymore? If no, can they kazoo?
Last edited by fectin on Mon Aug 04, 2014 10:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Voss »

fectin wrote:You could also just duct tape attach in some unspecified way your material component to your shield. Nothing says you actually have to keep them in a spell component pouch.

Also, can bards not just sing anymore? If no, can they kazoo?
They can sing. And the flavor text for the class and abilities mentions singing , oratory, stirring words and so on. A lot. But in terms of a spellcasting focus (which replaces material components), the text specifies a musical instrument. (And, of course, singing would involve a weird meshing of verbal and material components, and personally... yeah, don't want to touch that).

The 5e rules vary wildly between the extremes of really, really precise and specific (which is the problem here) or really vague and MTP. There doesn't seem to be much middle ground.

But spell component pouches are a different thing, in point of interest.
You can either use the actual components for each spell, have a spellcasting focus (which varies by class) or have a spell component pouch. But the latter is actually its own specific piece of equipment.

But when you cast hold person, regardless of whether you use a staff, a wand, a crystal, a holy symbol, a sprig of mistletoe, a musical instrument, (or any other other options); a spell component pouch; or the straight pieces of iron that are the actual components for hold person, you must have a free hand. You don't actually have to be holding the <whatever you use>, but you have to have a hand free to .... fondle it, wave it, play it or whatever it is you actually do. You "access" it in some way that requires a free hand, though that hand can also do somatic components.

So you can attach the components to the shield if you like, but you still explicitly have to have the hand free.

And if the material component has a gp cost, you have to have that as well as the spell component pouch or focus item.


For combat casters with shields, the obvious thing to do is start every battle with shield up and an empty hand. Cast whatever you need to do at the start of the battle, then just switch to swording. (Which is fine, since drawing a weapon is part of the attack action, at least according to the 'use an object' action). Once you do that, you never want to switch back to casting.

For most casters this becomes pretty moot, as throwing cantrips are better than weapon attacks at 5th level. So shield/empty hand is the way to go.
Druids, by the by, get mildly fucked here. Their two attack cantrips are produce flame and shillelagh. The latter requires you to have a club or staff which shoots out a 10' range melee attack whip of natural power that does bludgeoning damage. Produce flame fills your hand with flame (or attaches to the 'end of an item you hold'), which you then throw. So by default, your hands ends up not free. Both require material components, and shillelagh has no duration- you cast the cantrip on your weapon and then immediately attack, which means no shield if you use the bloody thing. Produce flame isn't as bad, since you'll have a hand to fill with flame, or you can put it on an item, or throw it as part of casting the spell.
Last edited by Voss on Mon Aug 04, 2014 10:40 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Post by animea90 »

Voss wrote:
fectin wrote:You could also just duct tape attach in some unspecified way your material component to your shield. Nothing says you actually have to keep them in a spell component pouch.

Also, can bards not just sing anymore? If no, can they kazoo?
They can sing. And the flavor text for the class and abilities mentions singing , oratory, stirring words and so on. A lot. But in terms of a spellcasting focus (which replaces material components), the text specifies a musical instrument. (And, of course, singing would involve a weird meshing of verbal and material components, and personally... yeah, don't want to touch that).

The 5e rules vary wildly between the extremes of really, really precise and specific (which is the problem here) or really vague and MTP. There doesn't seem to be much middle ground.

But spell component pouches are a different thing, in point of interest.
You can either use the actual components for each spell, have a spellcasting focus (which varies by class) or have a spell component pouch. But the latter is actually its own specific piece of equipment.

But when you cast hold person, regardless of whether you use a staff, a wand, a crystal, a holy symbol, a sprig of mistletoe, a musical instrument, (or any other other options); a spell component pouch; or the straight pieces of iron that are the actual components for hold person, you must have a free hand. You don't actually have to be holding the <whatever you use>, but you have to have a hand free to .... fondle it, wave it, play it or whatever it is you actually do. You "access" it in some way that requires a free hand, though that hand can also do somatic components.

So you can attach the components to the shield if you like, but you still explicitly have to have the hand free.

And if the material component has a gp cost, you have to have that as well as the spell component pouch or focus item.


For combat casters with shields, the obvious thing to do is start every battle with shield up and an empty hand. Cast whatever you need to do at the start of the battle, then just switch to swording. (Which is fine, since drawing a weapon is part of the attack action, at least according to the 'use an object' action). Once you do that, you never want to switch back to casting.

For most casters this becomes pretty moot, as throwing cantrips are better than weapon attacks at 5th level. So shield/empty hand is the way to go.
Druids, by the by, get mildly fucked here. Their two attack cantrips are produce flame and shillelagh. The latter requires you to have a club or staff which shoots out a 10' range melee attack whip of natural power that does bludgeoning damage. Produce flame fills your hand with flame (or attaches to the 'end of an item you hold'), which you then throw. So by default, your hands ends up not free. Both require material components, and shillelagh has no duration- you cast the cantrip on your weapon and then immediately attack, which means no shield if you use the bloody thing. Produce flame isn't as bad, since you'll have a hand to fill with flame, or you can put it on an item, or throw it as part of casting the spell.
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Post by Grek »

"Second, you can interact with one object or feature of the environment for free, either during your move or your action. For example, you could open a door during your move, as you stride toward a foe, or you could draw your weapon as part of the same action you use to attack a monster."

Other examples listed in the sidebar of interacting with an object include:
-draw or sheathe a weapon
-open or close a door
-get/put an item from/in your pack/the ground
-give an item to someone
-pull a lever
-drink a potion
-poke the floor with your 10' pole
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Post by fectin »

Voss wrote:
fectin wrote:You could also just duct tape attach in some unspecified way your material component to your shield. Nothing says you actually have to keep them in a spell component pouch.

Also, can bards not just sing anymore? If no, can they kazoo?
They can sing. And the flavor text for the class and abilities mentions singing , oratory, stirring words and so on. A lot. But in terms of a spellcasting focus (which replaces material components), the text specifies a musical instrument. (And, of course, singing would involve a weird meshing of verbal and material components, and personally... yeah, don't want to touch that).
So... how do verbal components interact with trumpets/flutes/mouth harps/whatever else requires your mouth to play?
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Post by Voss »

Dammit. I hate the organizational layout. And I use that term with all my hate and sarcasm.

That is from a sidebar. Under 'Movement and Position.'
The sidebar under 'Actions in Combat' is 'Variant: Playing on a Grid'
:bash:

Thanks, though, Grek.

So, for the most part, then, it doesn't matter. Every turn you can fuck around with one thing for free (found that elsewhere, above the sidebar in the movement section). It limits you somewhat since you wouldn't be able to sheath a weapon, cast a spell as a bonus action, draw a weapon and attack all the same turn. But you can alternate turns sheathing or drawing and it just won't interfere with casting. And you can start empty handed, cast a bonus action spell, draw and attack. Paladin spells, particularly, divine favor and divine power (both of which are also domain spells for the war cleric) really favor this as an opening move. Afterwards they just cast their verbal-only spells.
fectin wrote: So... how do verbal components interact with trumpets/flutes/mouth harps/whatever else requires your mouth to play?
They don't.
Seriously. They don't, at all. Nothing in the text about using a spell focus requires you to do anything other than have a hand free to access it. You don't have to manipulate, hold or play it in any way. You just have to be able to access the item(s) with a free hand. The only constraints on verbal components are being gagged or under an area of [magical] silence.

Its just the flavor text mentions a bunch of shit about chanting and singing and whatnot. But it doesn't matter, because the rules component is literally this:
Spellcasting Focus wrote:You can use a musical instrument as the material component for a bard spell, as described in chapter 10
Chapter 10, material components wrote:Casting some spells requires particular objects, specified in parentheses in the component entry. A character can use a component pouch or spellcasting focus in place of the components specified for a spell. ...[stuff on expensive components being required and a bit on components that are consumed rather than just used]

A spellcaster must have a hand free to access these components, but it can be the same hand that he or she uses to perform somatic components
You now know all the rules for how instruments interact with bard spellcasting. (According to the alpha version)
Last edited by Voss on Tue Aug 05, 2014 1:47 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Post by Grek »

As far as Bards go: The rules don't specify that the Bard has to play the instrument to use it as a spellcasting focus. So presumably the bard can run around with a trumpet and just sort of brandish it at people when they want to use a spell. Or, my favourite: Wear a xylophone strapped to your chest. Play the xylophone when you need music or your spellcasting focus, and use the xylophone hammer as an improvised light hammer when you want a weapon. For bonus points, use your shield as a giant gong.
Last edited by Grek on Tue Aug 05, 2014 2:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by TiaC »

Grek wrote:As far as Bards go: The rules don't specify that the Bard has to play the instrument to use it as a spellcasting focus. So presumably the bard can run around with a trumpet and just sort of brandish it at people when they want to use a spell. Or, my favourite: Wear a xylophone strapped to your chest. Play the xylophone when you need music or your spellcasting focus, and use the xylophone hammer as an improvised light hammer when you want a weapon. For bonus points, use your shield as a giant gong.
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Post by Voss »

The literally horrible thing about the spellcasting focus items is that, on a strict reading, actually holding them in your hand could be interpreted as not having a free hand to access them. This is unlikely to come up unless you have a shield (because you have two hands), but this is the kind of text we're working with.

Though anyone actually making this argument probably needs to be punched in the crotch. :viking:
Last edited by Voss on Tue Aug 05, 2014 2:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Maxus »

Kazoo down your back pocket
He jumps like a damned dragoon, and charges into battle fighting rather insane monsters with little more than his bare hands and rather nasty spell effects conjured up solely through knowledge and the local plantlife. He unerringly knows where his goal lies, he breathes underwater and is untroubled by space travel, seems to have no limits to his actual endurance and favors killing his enemies by driving both boots square into their skull. His agility is unmatched, and his strength legendary, able to fling about a turtle shell big enough to contain a man with enough force to barrel down a near endless path of unfortunates.

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Post by pragma »

Voss wrote:Instruments give me a headache all around. They sub for spell components, but take up both hands in most cases, and sometimes also the mouth. The flute player shouldn't be able to do anything, unless it is a material component only spell. And any spell that has material components that cost money is impossible to use without a free hand in any case, because you can't sub those out.
On this note, does anyone know what the difference is between situations that call for a performance check and situations that call for a musical instrument proficiency check. They seem like they would be identical with some very rare exceptions: fiddling contests with Old Scratch in Georgia and reciting the Iliad.

My instinct is to houserule out the perform skill, replace it with streetwise because I think the game will hurt from the absence of that skill, and treat poems, songs, etc. as "tool" proficiencies.

That said, if there are real rules on the subject then I'd be happier with them.
CapnTthePirateG
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Post by CapnTthePirateG »

pragma wrote: My instinct is to houserule out the perform skill, replace it with streetwise because I think the game will hurt from the absence of that skill, and treat poems, songs, etc. as "tool" proficiencies.
So the guy who spent hours locked in his room practicing an instrument has a better ability to gather information? Or is it just that you can write "Bach" on your character sheet and then go around being proficient in Bach?
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