Do Staggered Releases Ever Make Sense?
Moderator: Moderators
Do Staggered Releases Ever Make Sense?
Just got in a 5E group and on the campus people are talking about switching to 5E and not having access to the Monster Manual for another month and not having a DMG until November is driving me batshit.
I wanted to try a 7th level adventure or convert some adventures and modules I already used but I don't have an effing bestiary or any sort of expectation of what CRs mean for HP, attack, damage, DC, etc.
So aggravating. Why not just do the 60 dollar box set? I don't get it.
I wanted to try a 7th level adventure or convert some adventures and modules I already used but I don't have an effing bestiary or any sort of expectation of what CRs mean for HP, attack, damage, DC, etc.
So aggravating. Why not just do the 60 dollar box set? I don't get it.
Re: Do Staggered Releases Ever Make Sense?
5e is a prominent market player and effectively a market leader. They have so far done everything right. They got tons of cheap publicity on initial release. Now they got everyone talking about them (creating free marketing) and staggered release supports this perfectly (whetting appetite and creating discussion).Insomniac wrote: I don't get it.
- RobbyPants
- King
- Posts: 5201
- Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2008 6:11 pm
Re: Do Staggered Releases Ever Make Sense?
True. I see all kinds of crap about it on Facebook. I've even seen a macro going around where they pair various James Bond actors up with each edition. 5E is Daniel Craig. I can't tell if that's supposed to be a good thing or a bad thing.nikita wrote: 5e is a prominent market player and effectively a market leader. They have so far done everything right. They got tons of cheap publicity on initial release. Now they got everyone talking about them (creating free marketing) and staggered release supports this perfectly (whetting appetite and creating discussion).
-
- Invincible Overlord
- Posts: 10555
- Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 3:00 am
The staggered release strategy works if the initial book and the books coming out thereafter are good and to avoid sticker shock. 5E D&D had to do this to avoid sticker shock what with its $50 books, but staggered releases can backfire if word-of-mouth is bad. See: the 4th Edition Forgotten Realms fiasco, the 4th Edition Dark Sun AP debacle, and the 4th Edition Keep on the Shadowfell AP disaster.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.
In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
-
- Serious Badass
- Posts: 29894
- Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
Staggered releases also help protect against bad word of mouth somewhat. Scion had a lot of denial in depth going over the fact that it wasn't fair to criticize Hero for being unfinished because Demigod was going to come out soon.
5e is launching without higher level challenges, full fucking stop. But since the Monster Manual and the DMG aren't out yet, that criticism is somehow "unfair" because we haven't seen the "real" high level challenges yet.
By staggering releases, they get to draw out the collective realization that skill challenges don't work for two more months. I'm not sure if it will make much difference - after all 4th edition managed to stagger on a couple of months before the math people convinced everyone else that the skill challenges were in reality "that bad." By giving people a couple of months to "get a feel" for what characters can actually do in 5th edition (which is not very much, to be honest), I suspect that when the high level monsters and task DCs get released, that the math people will have a much easier time pointing out that it's a hunk of shit.
-Username17
5e is launching without higher level challenges, full fucking stop. But since the Monster Manual and the DMG aren't out yet, that criticism is somehow "unfair" because we haven't seen the "real" high level challenges yet.
By staggering releases, they get to draw out the collective realization that skill challenges don't work for two more months. I'm not sure if it will make much difference - after all 4th edition managed to stagger on a couple of months before the math people convinced everyone else that the skill challenges were in reality "that bad." By giving people a couple of months to "get a feel" for what characters can actually do in 5th edition (which is not very much, to be honest), I suspect that when the high level monsters and task DCs get released, that the math people will have a much easier time pointing out that it's a hunk of shit.
-Username17
I know about the FR thing, but there were Dark Sun/KotS APs (at least planned)? That I din't know. Can you elaborate?Lago PARANOIA wrote:See: the 4th Edition Forgotten Realms fiasco, the 4th Edition Dark Sun AP debacle, and the 4th Edition Keep on the Shadowfell AP disaster.
"No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife between the shoulder blades will seriously cramp his style." - Steven Brust
This actually feels like something that could blow up in Mearls' face in a big way if the math people are patient enough. If right now you say "the game doesn't work because it needs to do X, Y, and Z, but obviously it doesn't work because it's incomplete, so we just need a DMG/MM that can do X, Y, and Z," then when those books actually come out and do not do X, Y, and Z you'll already have had people who were nodding along with you for the months in between who might take your side when they otherwise wouldn't have.FrankTrollman wrote:By giving people a couple of months to "get a feel" for what characters can actually do in 5th edition (which is not very much, to be honest), I suspect that when the high level monsters and task DCs get released, that the math people will have a much easier time pointing out that it's a hunk of shit.
-Username17
The dark sun adventure is called Marauders of the Dune Sea and was an obvious no-time-invested conversion from a generic adventure to Dark Sun by Bruce Cordell.Antariuk wrote:I know about the FR thing, but there were Dark Sun/KotS APs (at least planned)? That I din't know. Can you elaborate?Lago PARANOIA wrote:See: the 4th Edition Forgotten Realms fiasco, the 4th Edition Dark Sun AP debacle, and the 4th Edition Keep on the Shadowfell AP disaster.
It contains such nice things as a dungeon with a stream of water in it (which would most likely be the most valuable thing the party ever finds), or a very first encounter for the level 2 party that contains a level 7 enemy (which the party is expected to almost never hit).
There are a few very funny reviews for it if you search for them.
-
- Invincible Overlord
- Posts: 10555
- Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 3:00 am
Well, AFAIK there wasn't a direct sequel to Keep on the Shadowfell planned despite it being full of sequel hooks. However, the big problems with Keep on the Shadowfell were:
1.) For an introductory adventure, it's much too hard. Too many encounters and too little treasure. Especially the final challenge, which came in waves with little opportunity to rest. Today it's not such a big deal with the class and power and geegaw (yay themes and backgrounds) bloat, but when 4E D&D first came out you either needed to min-max your party to the hit or get really lucky on the rolls.
2.) It's poorly written. For awhile it was the only canned adventure that had its own FAQ and errata.
3.) That adventure path was meant to show off the Skill Challenge system. And this was when the world saw how broken it was. 4E D&D Skill Challenge already had perverse incentives (higher complexity skill challenges are easier), the DCs were too high, and of course some skills caused you to autofail the challenge. Not to mention that at least in the original skill challenge writeup in the DMG, everyone had to use a skill when their turn came up. If you want to make someone hate your new system there's nothing like putting them in zugzwang, breaking the fourth wall to put them there, and then making them responsible for dragging everyone else down.
1.) For an introductory adventure, it's much too hard. Too many encounters and too little treasure. Especially the final challenge, which came in waves with little opportunity to rest. Today it's not such a big deal with the class and power and geegaw (yay themes and backgrounds) bloat, but when 4E D&D first came out you either needed to min-max your party to the hit or get really lucky on the rolls.
2.) It's poorly written. For awhile it was the only canned adventure that had its own FAQ and errata.
3.) That adventure path was meant to show off the Skill Challenge system. And this was when the world saw how broken it was. 4E D&D Skill Challenge already had perverse incentives (higher complexity skill challenges are easier), the DCs were too high, and of course some skills caused you to autofail the challenge. Not to mention that at least in the original skill challenge writeup in the DMG, everyone had to use a skill when their turn came up. If you want to make someone hate your new system there's nothing like putting them in zugzwang, breaking the fourth wall to put them there, and then making them responsible for dragging everyone else down.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.
In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
@malak: Thanks for the tip, I will do that.
@Lago: Ok, that wasn't what I expected... what a sad story. Was KotS its own thing settingwise or was it somehow connected to that mini-setting 4E had going?
@Lago: Ok, that wasn't what I expected... what a sad story. Was KotS its own thing settingwise or was it somehow connected to that mini-setting 4E had going?
"No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife between the shoulder blades will seriously cramp his style." - Steven Brust
-
- Invincible Overlord
- Posts: 10555
- Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 3:00 am
4E D&D had a mini-setting? Bwa ha ha.
KotS was the first in a three-part Adventure Path series, part of Thunderspire Labyrinth and Pyramid of Shadows. However, it's only as related to those other canned adventures as much as Aliens is related to Alien Resurrection.
As for the plot hooks specific to Keep on the Shadowfell, This high spoiler summary of the H-series adventure path can explain it better than I can.
KotS was the first in a three-part Adventure Path series, part of Thunderspire Labyrinth and Pyramid of Shadows. However, it's only as related to those other canned adventures as much as Aliens is related to Alien Resurrection.
As for the plot hooks specific to Keep on the Shadowfell, This high spoiler summary of the H-series adventure path can explain it better than I can.
Kalarel, an Orcus worshiping cult leader, is performing a ritual to open a rift into the Shadowfell. Kalarel is served by an elven archer Ninaren who may initially work with the party, and a gnome named Agrid, as well as sundry undead, cultists and other nasties. Kalarel is allied to a gang of kobolds lead by the goblin Irontooth, a gang of goblins lead by their chief Balgron the Fat, and a gang of hobgoblins lead by their un-named chief.
Plot hooks kicking off the adventure include locating a missing person, Douven Staul, an explorer, who has stumbled across the dragon burial ground where Agrid is trying to recover artifacts useful to his master; mapping the Keep on the Shadowfell, built in ancient times to stand guard over a potential gateway to the Shadowfell; and following up a commission to investigate and disrupt the Kalarel's plans.
Allies of the players include the lord of Winterhaven Lord Padraig, a sage Valthrun the Prescient, as well as the ghost of the last lord of the Keep on the Shadowfell Sir Keegan.
The adventure starts with an attack by Kobolds on the players as they travel to Winterhaven, where they are likely to meet Lord Padraig, Valthrun the Perscient and Ninaren. Depending on some players choices they will end up seeking out Douven Staul and fighting Agrid or tracking the Kobolds back to their lair and fighting Irontooth.
Eventually the players will find their way to the keep, or more accurately the dungeon under the ruins of the keep, the first level of which is mainly populated by the Goblin tribe, a Kruthik hive, and some undead guarding Sir Keegan's tomb.
In Sir Keegan's tomb the players can discover the story of the keep - that it was built by the Empire of Nerath to guard against a rift into the Shadowfell being re-opened, but that it was abandoned after he fell into madness and slew his family and retainers.
Additionally in the first level of the dungeon the characters can find a letter linking Kalarel to Chief Krand of the Bloodreavers which ties into H2 - Thunderspire Labyrinth
It is expected that the characters will return to Winterhaven before continuing through the dungeon, and there they discover that Ninaren is working with Kalarel as she has performed a ritual at his instruction that has raised undead from town cemetery.
The second level of the dungeon under the keep sees the characters pitted against the hobgoblins, then undead, and finally they make it to the climactic battle against Kalarel
Plot hooks kicking off the adventure include locating a missing person, Douven Staul, an explorer, who has stumbled across the dragon burial ground where Agrid is trying to recover artifacts useful to his master; mapping the Keep on the Shadowfell, built in ancient times to stand guard over a potential gateway to the Shadowfell; and following up a commission to investigate and disrupt the Kalarel's plans.
Allies of the players include the lord of Winterhaven Lord Padraig, a sage Valthrun the Prescient, as well as the ghost of the last lord of the Keep on the Shadowfell Sir Keegan.
The adventure starts with an attack by Kobolds on the players as they travel to Winterhaven, where they are likely to meet Lord Padraig, Valthrun the Perscient and Ninaren. Depending on some players choices they will end up seeking out Douven Staul and fighting Agrid or tracking the Kobolds back to their lair and fighting Irontooth.
Eventually the players will find their way to the keep, or more accurately the dungeon under the ruins of the keep, the first level of which is mainly populated by the Goblin tribe, a Kruthik hive, and some undead guarding Sir Keegan's tomb.
In Sir Keegan's tomb the players can discover the story of the keep - that it was built by the Empire of Nerath to guard against a rift into the Shadowfell being re-opened, but that it was abandoned after he fell into madness and slew his family and retainers.
Additionally in the first level of the dungeon the characters can find a letter linking Kalarel to Chief Krand of the Bloodreavers which ties into H2 - Thunderspire Labyrinth
It is expected that the characters will return to Winterhaven before continuing through the dungeon, and there they discover that Ninaren is working with Kalarel as she has performed a ritual at his instruction that has raised undead from town cemetery.
The second level of the dungeon under the keep sees the characters pitted against the hobgoblins, then undead, and finally they make it to the climactic battle against Kalarel
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.
In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
There's no way I'm going to pay $60 (Canadian) or so for *one* D&D book. It was bad enough paying $45ish for books in the 3.5 era.
Official Discord: https://discord.gg/ZUc77F7
Twitter: @HrtBrkrPress
FB Page: htttp://facebook.com/HrtBrkrPress
My store page: https://heartbreaker-press.myshopify.co ... ctions/all
Book store: http://www.drivethrurpg.com/browse/pub/ ... aker-Press
Twitter: @HrtBrkrPress
FB Page: htttp://facebook.com/HrtBrkrPress
My store page: https://heartbreaker-press.myshopify.co ... ctions/all
Book store: http://www.drivethrurpg.com/browse/pub/ ... aker-Press
-
- Invincible Overlord
- Posts: 10555
- Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 3:00 am
I paid only 30 USD over Amazon. That's the only thing that convinced me to buy the damn book.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.
In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
It's like going on a blind date with someone wearing a luchador mask, and the person says they'll only remove the mask until the end of the date.FrankTrollman wrote:Staggered releases also help protect against bad word of mouth somewhat. Scion had a lot of denial in depth going over the fact that it wasn't fair to criticize Hero for being unfinished because Demigod was going to come out soon.
And then, there's a non-zero chance they haven't even finished the Sekrit Squirrel rules yet and they're using this time to finish the DMG.
- deaddmwalking
- Prince
- Posts: 3636
- Joined: Mon May 21, 2012 11:33 am
You also can take advantage of the sunk cost fallacy. If you plop down money for the book and you can't play, you have two choices - you can cut your losses and walk away, or you can invest more to get your original investment out...hogarth wrote:From the seller's perspective, it makes financial sense to say "you can totally play with just this one book!!" even if it isn't true; then you're not scaring off customers who think that PHB + MM + DMG is too much money to fork over at one time.
Most people prefer to 'throw more money' than admit that they made a mistake.
As a seller of stuff I'd never pull that shit; of course all my games also have one rulebook because fuck that "you need three books to play the basic game" D&D bullshit.hogarth wrote:From the seller's perspective, it makes financial sense to say "you can totally play with just this one book!!" even if it isn't true; then you're not scaring off customers who think that PHB + MM + DMG is too much money to fork over at one time.
For a minute, I used to be "a guy" in the TTRPG "industry". Now I'm just a nobody. For the most part, it's a relief.
Trank Frollman wrote:One of the reasons we can say insightful things about stuff is that we don't have to pretend to be nice to people. By embracing active aggression, we eliminate much of the passive aggression that so paralyzes things on other gaming forums.
hogarth wrote:As the good book saith, let he who is without boners cast the first stone.
TiaC wrote:I'm not quite sure why this is an argument. (Except that Kaelik is in it, that's a good reason.)
It worked for 3E.
Vebyast wrote:Here's a fun target for Major Creation: hydrazine. One casting every six seconds at CL9 gives you a bit more than 40 liters per second, which is comparable to the flow rates of some small, but serious, rocket engines. Six items running at full blast through a well-engineered engine will put you, and something like 50 tons of cargo, into space. Alternatively, if you thrust sideways, you will briefly be a fireball screaming across the sky at mach 14 before you melt from atmospheric friction.
-
- Invincible Overlord
- Posts: 10555
- Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 3:00 am
When did the SRD come out, exactly? The Internet wasn't as totally ubiquitous in 2000 as it was in 2008 or 2014, but I have a hard time imagining that the entire SRD wasn't available at least within weeks of the PHB dropping.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.
In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
I have to admit I don't understand some people's psychology about buying stuff. For instance, there seem to be plenty of people in the world (judging from what I've seen on the Paizo boards, at least) who would gladly buy a $60 book each month for four months, but who would balk at waiting four months and buying the same 4 $60 books all at once. I guess I'm just not an early adopter.deaddmwalking wrote:You also can take advantage of the sunk cost fallacy. If you plop down money for the book and you can't play, you have two choices - you can cut your losses and walk away, or you can invest more to get your original investment out...hogarth wrote:From the seller's perspective, it makes financial sense to say "you can totally play with just this one book!!" even if it isn't true; then you're not scaring off customers who think that PHB + MM + DMG is too much money to fork over at one time.
Most people prefer to 'throw more money' than admit that they made a mistake.
The internet was well established enough at that point. It came out pretty short after the opening. I believe content was added as the rest of the core books rolled out.Lago PARANOIA wrote:When did the SRD come out, exactly? The Internet wasn't as totally ubiquitous in 2000 as it was in 2008 or 2014, but I have a hard time imagining that the entire SRD wasn't available at least within weeks of the PHB dropping.
The SRD was inconveniently available as RTF documents that you could download in chunks from the WotC site. I dunno the date they made them available for download, but it wasn't that far delayed if at all (other than their DoSsuicide). Online SRD really didn't take off until people made it more convenient though with fan-made hypertext versions.
If I recall, 3rd edition organized a self-inflicted denial of service attack on themselves with the advent of 3e. Their main page had a countdown timer that had been counting down for days, and once it finally got to zero and it was time to unveil D&D 3rd edition, it automatically refreshed every browser that was open, causing TONS of people to load their home page. Instant burn.
I confess my contribution in part. There was some sort of campus event going on and I had left a browser tab of my own on their page and returned to find a good ole 404 or browser error.
Last edited by erik on Thu Aug 21, 2014 1:38 am, edited 1 time in total.