Non-conventionally powerful Super Powers

[Kaelik]

Once you put the thermal energy into a single particle, it's just momentum, since the average and measure are identical with a single item.

How much energy can you put into a single particle? Can you accelerate a proton to 99.99% of the speed of light just by cooling a microliter of water by a fraction of a degree? Can you turn your heat control into momentum control the same way Magneto turned his magnetic control into telekinesis - by using hax levels of precision to take thermal energy out of an object and channel it into each of that object's constituent particles in a very carefully measured manner, or vice versa? Does this allow you to do what TiaC suggested, with the additional option of adding up all the "thermal energy" of each particle in your attacker's fist and transferring it to their brain?

The point is that if you use a "vacuum" of space, and you transfer all the energy to some particle, you don't care if the proton flies through space at light speed and hits and asteroid.

I assume you can't just pick on particle on earth, or that if you do, you can't decide which direction it goes, or it collides with some other particle and your directioning is now useless. Which is why I am just saying, freeze everything using your ability to transfer heat to some random particles in space as a heatsink.

Could you even target a single proton or molecule? Human being physically can't perceive single protons - they're too small. We can detect their passage but that's an after-the-fact thing. On the other hand, if we can target stuff we can't see, then there's all sorts of stupid stuff you can do, limited only by your GM's patience for particle physics. Google "Maxwell's Demon" for an example of how to use it to make infinite free energy.

I don't think you probably could. Which is why I suggested targeting a vacuum instead of a particle.

[Laertes]

I don't think you probably could. Which is why I suggested targeting a vacuum instead of a particle.

Can you target a vacuum? If your targeting allows area-of-effect stuff then I suppose you could, but if it requires an actual perceptible target then you couldn't - a vacuum is the absence of all possible targets.

[Kaelik]

I don't think you probably could. Which is why I suggested targeting a vacuum instead of a particle.

Can you target a vacuum? If your targeting allows area-of-effect stuff then I suppose you could, but if it requires an actual perceptible target then you couldn't - a vacuum is the absence of all possible targets.

Well like I said, a true vacuum is nothing, but all true vacuums are of constantly changing size, so just identifying "that area of space directly above me and X miles away, 1 ft diameter" would probably result in a a few particles you could accelerate to lightspeed without giving a shit.

[DSMatticus]

Debates about targeting things that are not things (like vacuums) aside, you definitely can't transfer heat energy as-is to a thing that is not a thing. Transferring heat to a true vacuum would imply transforming that heat energy into some form of radiation, which is slightly different from simply moving heat energy around between different objects. And that is completely separate from whether or not the ability is area of effect or not - affecting all particles in an area is different from affecting an area devoid of particles.

But honestly, the amount of heat energy just sitting around keeping things at room temperature is staggering. If you had a 200kg chunk of iron (say, a small car engine) at room temperature (because it isn't doing anything that generates heat, such as running), you would make two megajoules of energy available by lowering that chunk of iron to zero celsius. That is basically a stick of dynamite. And it is also enough energy to raise the temperature of an average adult male by about ten degrees, which is more than enough to disable and/or murder someone.

Now, note that metals are basically the worst things around you at storing heat and targeting almost anything else could easily double or triple those numbers.

[momothefiddler]

Could you even target a single proton or molecule? Human being physically can't perceive single protons - they're too small. We can detect their passage but that's an after-the-fact thing. On the other hand, if we can target stuff we can't see, then there's all sorts of stupid stuff you can do, limited only by your GM's patience for particle physics. Google "Maxwell's Demon" for an example of how to use it to make infinite free energy.

That's why I referenced Magneto in terms of hax. While I am unable to read the comics myself, I'm told he has, at times, affected non-ferrous things by using the magnetic natures of their constituent particles.
EDIT: And I tend to just assume that any superpower breaks conservation of energy and thus all of recognizable reality if you don't have constant super threats.

Once you put the thermal energy into a single particle, it's just momentum, since the average and measure are identical with a single item.

How much energy can you put into a single particle? Can you accelerate a proton to 99.99% of the speed of light just by cooling a microliter of water by a fraction of a degree? Can you turn your heat control into momentum control the same way Magneto turned his magnetic control into telekinesis - by using hax levels of precision to take thermal energy out of an object and channel it into each of that object's constituent particles in a very carefully measured manner, or vice versa? Does this allow you to do what TiaC suggested, with the additional option of adding up all the "thermal energy" of each particle in your attacker's fist and transferring it to their brain?

The point is that if you use a "vacuum" of space, and you transfer all the energy to some particle, you don't care if the proton flies through space at light speed and hits and asteroid.

Yeah, but my point is that if you wanted to fuck something up on Earth, you could apparently pick a more local particle (or particles) and it wouldn't take much energy to do it - a negligible amount. Largely what DSM said but with water+near-c particles in the brain instead of iron+heatstroke.

[Laertes]

DSMatticus:
You've just invented the concept of negative entropy and skipped straight over the civilian applications to weaponise it. Kudos, and I mean that sincerely. This amuses me greatly.

Kaelik, momo:
Accelerating a particle to near-c isn't that expensive in energy terms if you don't need to run a superaccelerator to do it. The lead nuclei used in the LHC at CERN were accelerated up to within 3 m/s of c, and they only had an energy of 4 TeV (6.4x10^-7 joules). By contrast, cooling a single gram of water by a single degree gives you 4 joules - roughly 10,000,000 times as much.

On the other hand, accelerating a single nucleus to near-c wouldn't do much. At worst it might give them cancer. It's unlikely to go off like a fusion bomb if that's what you're after.

[momothefiddler]

Kaelik, momo:
Accelerating a particle to near-c isn't that expensive in energy terms if you don't need to run a superaccelerator to do it. The lead nuclei used in the LHC at CERN were accelerated up to within 3 m/s of c, and they only had an energy of 4 TeV (6.4x10^-7 joules). By contrast, cooling a single gram of water by a single degree gives you 4 joules - roughly 10,000,000 times as much.

On the other hand, accelerating a single nucleus to near-c wouldn't do much. At worst it might give them cancer. It's unlikely to go off like a fusion bomb if that's what you're after.

I literally pointed out that it was a small amount of energy, specifically equivalent to a minor decrease in the temperature of a small amount of water, in my initial post on the subject, and went on to discuss the potential ramifications of doing it with a lot of them, because you can.

That said, I was under the impression that the only reason alpha radiation isn't massively destructive is that it's easily absorbed by the skin, and that's at 5MeV, so targeting particles already in the brain could be a big deal. Further research indicates you're right, however, that it's not necessarily a useful action on a combat time scale (though I refer back to the opportunities for coordinated energy transfer with many particles).

[Laertes]

Ah, my apologies. We're agreeing with one another then.

If you have the power to target the inside of someone's body with physics effects, radiation in the brain wouldn't be my first choice. Simply target the connection between the brain and the spinal cord with enough heat to burn it out (it wouldn't be difficult - lower the temperature of 200g of water by 1 C and raise the temperature of the right 1g of the brain by 200 C) and move on. If you could control electricity and understood more brain biology than I do, then you could possibly do a nonlethal version of that.

If your GM restricts you to only being able to target stuff you can perceive, Shadowrun or Ars Magica style, then do as Minsc taught us and go for the eyes instead. Far less pleasant and it makes me wince to type it but it works. Nobody likes their eyes boiling.

If you're allowed to mess with energy in a broader way, allow me to bring in a trick from Mage: the Ascension. Converting temperature into gravitational potential energy is possibly the funniest thing you can do, and directly targeting and destroying their nuclear binding energy is possibly the most powerful.

However, if your GM is allowing you to use real physics when dealing with a supers game, then all of these are weak sauce tricks. The power to kill an individual human being is easy to acquire: AK47s are cheap if you go to the right country. The stuff you should be aiming for is widespread social change. Adrian Veidt had the right idea.

Just off the top of my head, you could control heat in the atmosphere and ocean in such a way as to not only control climate but also reverse impending climate change. You could run DSM's Reverse Entropy Man for civilian applications by creating a heat engine that provides everyone on earth with free energy forever. You could pump the waste heat from generators into kinetic energy and GPE and thus make space travel cheap and affordable.

[Username17]

People straight up pass out if their brain temperature rises or falls by 6 degrees. If you can precisely target the inside of a skull with a heat transfer effect, you pretty much win if you can transfer any amount of heat that might be noticeable under other circumstances.

Which brings us back to parameters. If your heat transfer powers are fast enough that you can make bullets stop in the air, precise enough to turn people off like a lightswitch, or big enough to shatter-freeze a bank safe, then you're superhero/villain potential. If it's modest, generalized, and slow enough that you're basically a one-man swamp cooler, people might not even know you had it.

Mr. Freeze is a lower level character than Captain Cold, who is in turn a lower level character than Killer Frost, and they are all ice villains who exist in the same universe.

-Username17

[Stahlseele]

Yeah, but Mr.Freeze was made as an enemy for the non super batman.
While the others were made for the Flash, if i remember correctly.

Flash is actually a pretty good example of a very usefull utility super power that in itself is technically not as strong as you'd think It's just how he uses it.

Same with the Iceman from X-Men. When he goes Omega-Level, he technically becomes entropy invictus.

[ishy]

Well the flash is basically this right?

[Stahlseele]

no idea.
i was always bad at physics, math and chemistry while in school, and that's almost 17 years ago.
the flash can approach relativistic speed though, as seen by his speed-run to the sun in minutes. now if we remember that the light from the sun takes 8 minutes or so to reach earth and he managed to get similar speeds, then yes, he can move at close to light speed it seems. and with speed/accelleration times mass means he gains an incredible ammount of energy as well. so if he were to run at a wall the wall would shatter, not him.
also because of his speed force field. he ran several times around the earth to beat a brainiac/luther hybrid out of power armor by using exactly this.
and then there's him runnign fast enough to mess with time itself of course.
but he also uses his speed to create gusts of wind by moving his arms that allow him to catch stuff in the wind or himself being propelled around with a very obvious lack of control. he also vibrates himself through stuff without damaging it. also cracking codes becomes kind of trivial if you can enter combinations faster than the system can say no. he can also use that speed to punch through basically everything sooner or later, because he can overstress it over time in seconds.

[momothefiddler]

also cracking codes becomes kind of trivial if you can enter combinations faster than the system can say no.

It must have been a disappointing day when he met a system with increasing lockout times, which are made because computers are also good at that.

A lot of those other things don't seem possible within strict physics and a simple superpower of "going super fast" or (I think equivalently) "personal time dilation", but I'm worried that's the same argument that leads to people giving Supes touch-range TK, so...

[Laertes]

Strict physics was out to lunch when The Flash was created. I'm not even going to bother doing my normal physics-geekery on that one. The relativistic calculations would be fun, but working out the effect of air resistance and the potential for all sorts of electromagnetic effects would give me a massive headache.

[Stahlseele]

Depends on which Supes. .
Supes Boy HAS touch TK. .
No actual super strength. .

As with most things in DC/Marvel, physics are told to go to the back of the bus so they don't spoil anybodys fun.

The Flashes circumvent the air resistance via the speed force field. which protects them from all kinds of shenanigans the laws of physics would try with them.

[momothefiddler]

Depends on which Supes. .
Supes Boy HAS touch TK. .
No actual super strength. .

I was told that base Supes (is that even a thing) has gotten statted up with touch TK because of times he's done things like lift an aircraft by the nose without it just falling apart, which is obviously just the writer not understanding the structural integrity of a passenger jet, not any sort of superpower (and if "the author letting you get away with things you shouldn't" is a superpower, it needs to be Deadpool's, not Superman's).

As with most things in DC/Marvel, physics are told to go to the back of the bus so they don't spoil anybodys fun.

Absolutely, but that makes it hard to combine the power with physics for hax.

The Flashes circumvent the air resistance via the speed force field. which protects them from all kinds of shenanigans the laws of physics would try with them.

Do you have more detail on how this works? If it weren't for the fact that he (they?) seems to have momentum and doesn't do terrifying amounts of damage by running near... things, I'd almost interpret that as an Alcubierre drive.

[Stahlseele]

There are MANY flashes, first you have to see which flash you want.
I recommend as for most things DC/Marvel Wikipedia to the rescue.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_(comics)
Just . . just don't start clicking on links. You'll be lost in minutes.

[momothefiddler]

Furthermore, all members have an invisible aura around their bodies that prevents themselves and their clothes from being affected by air friction as they move at high speed.

"It's fucking magic stop asking questions."

Thanks anyway

[Stahlseele]

More or less, yes <.<

[Sajber]

<physics with heat>

Just off the top of my head, you could control heat in the atmosphere and ocean in such a way as to not only control climate but also reverse impending climate change. You could run DSM's Reverse Entropy Man for civilian applications by creating a heat engine that provides everyone on earth with free energy forever. You could pump the waste heat from generators into kinetic energy and GPE and thus make space travel cheap and affordable.

Again, damn.

So, if I wanted to make Maxwell's Demon (which is totally a name I could see myself using for him) have the power of moving heat around, what would be the most disasterous thing he could do, on a global scale? How would he destroy the earth (universe?) or hold us all hostage?

I liked the idea of him continually taking heat from his surroundings, as something he always does (like breathing), and then also having the power let it out. I could see him basically going all around the world for a couple of years, just building up a heat-bank inside himself, in preparation for doing whatever it is he wants to do. I don't know if that takes away from the satisfyingly simple "transfer heat"-power, though...

[Stahlseele]

That depends on how big his reach is.
If his reach is big enough, simply siphon the heat from the sun.
Even without pointing it at a planet, the planet will die because the sun just died. Technically, without heat, you are going to transform the sun into a black hole maybe? because you just snuffed out the fusion going on inside holding it up, but the mass is still there so it will fall back in on itself.
Maybe fusion will restart, maybe it will go supernova, not sure about that.

If his reach ain't that big:
Just fucking travel around, visit some volcanoes, do some sight seeing on smelteries and the such, become a firefighter and walk into building fires.
If the ammount is additive and it does not matter how big, everything counts, just move to live in the desert somewhere for some time. Hell, technically he should be able to overload just from his own generated body heat given enough time.

Go to the north and south pole, melt ALL the ice . . instant world wide flood/water world!

If he is not at all affected by the heat, jump INTO a volcano, take up all the heat, go somwhere where the crust is relatively thin and start melting it untill it breaks. rinse and repeat some times and you have a good chance of starting a new ice age due to all the volanic activities all around.

Hell, go look for some of the super volcanoes, like the one below yellowstone and pump your heat into that to set it off . . that might just rip a continent in two and that's pretty damn impressive . . also, if you get it off, think about the heat generated there and take that up into yourself. positive power loop.

[TiaC]

If you can put enough heat in a small enough space, you'll get a fusion reaction.

[deaddmwalking]

If you can put enough heat in a small enough space, you'll get a fusion reaction.

I don't know that I agree with this statement. Just like with discussion of a vacuum, it depends a little on what you mean. In general, fusion results from high pressure. High pressure is associated with high temperature as particles try to escape - but they can't.

Unless there is some type of containment, I would expect any object raised to a sufficiently high temperature to vaporize before it would undergo fusion.

[Stahlseele]

well, THAT on the other hand depends on WHERE you can project the heat . .
If it's only where you can see, you are SOL anyway, because that will simple be a melta beam . . if you can, on the other hand, will the heat into existence anywhere you can imagine . . well, why not make a second sun out of the moon by making it burn up from the core? won't last long, if at all, most space rocks are actually pretty damn porous and sedimentary . .

[TiaC]

I'm reminded of this.