Constructing D&D's Default World

Dean · Post by **Dean** » Sat Mar 28, 2015 6:17 am

Eikre wrote:A counter-proposal:

PROTECTING THE BALANCE

I like this. I'd like to change it a little but I recognize that it's covering some holes I left. What I'd like to do to model the ancient consciousnesses of the world is create rules for Intelligent Locations that would act a lot like Necromantic Intelligences from Tome of Necromancy. Let you build intelligences that would have nature minions and a host of spell like abilities to act as guiding hands for the preservation. As an example you could give the Ancient Forest the ability to change the weather within its radius, have one Liveoak effect active at a time, be able to use Dream at will and 1 Sending per month to communicate and be able to manifest itself as an Elder Earth elemental 10 minutes a day. That's off the top of my head but you could do something cool there. I would want those primal druid god-types don't just kindly save your soul. Rather they fuel themselves with it, like the nutrients in a plants soil. So if a Druid gets raised he may come back with a white streak in his hair or something so there's a small sense of having a tiny bit of his life force consumed. I would want the primal gods to seem more raw and crude. When I have something more concrete I'll write it.

tussock wrote:if the Orcs and Xvarts are all War3 as well, now we're down to damage spells doing nothing at all, weapons not killing people, and a bunch of other rules you'll need to change which makes things even less "D&D's Default World".

Because D&D up through Pathfinder has a man in plate armour on a barded warhorse with war-trained mastiffs being incredibly lethal to the town guard of War1's

A Fighter 3 in my proposed setting could have Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, Leap Attack and 2 other feats. With plate mail, a warhorse, and a war hound he could confidently kill 3-4 people a round. If he asks the town guard to step aside it would take about 20 of them before they could say no and they wouldn't feel happy about doing it. Being a legitimate PC still makes you a total badass.

You're correct that this makes evocation slightly worse. I'm entirely ok with that though because evocation is garbage and needs to be entirely rewritten to function but these are my world improvement rules and not my evocation improvement rules so that can go somewhere else.

OgreBattle wrote:What happens to your town when locusts descend on their crops

Swarm Rules wrote: Swarms are extremely difficult to fight with physical attacks. However, they have a few special vulnerabilities, as follows:

A lit torch swung as an improvised weapon deals 1d3 points of fire damage per hit.

A weapon with a special ability such as flaming or frost deals its full energy damage with each hit, even if the weapon’s normal damage can’t affect the swarm.

A lit lantern can be used as a thrown weapon, dealing 1d4 points of fire damage to all creatures in squares adjacent to where it breaks.

Depending on how many lanterns people have the options range between throwing a bunch of lanterns and burning down some crops with no casualties or sending people with torches to kill the locusts with casualties.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Sat Mar 28, 2015 7:16 am

Grek wrote:Why even have other dimensions at all?

So that you can be adjacent to supernatural shit. In Kitchen Sink Fantasy, you want there to be horrible places that you have to take a boat to get to. But you also want horrible places that are just on the other side of a mirror. And horrible places that are just a dream away.

You need access to both other continents and other worlds. You don't need infinite worlds, and none of the other worlds have to be infinite in size. But you do need many lands and you do need several worlds. Because it's Kitchen Sink Fantasy. And that means that you need several slightly different things.

Now, you don't need Arcadia at all. Arcadia brings absolutely nothing to the table. The Grey Wastes don't need to be an entire world, they only need to be a few hundred kilometers across to serve any possible narrative import. But you do need to have evil worlds that have evil kings. And I made that plural for a reason. Having Baator and the Abyss as separate worlds that have separate dark lords (Asmodeus and Demogorgon respectively) is pretty much a must. Having evil worlds that don't have world-kings is also a must. Just as having major villains who control areas that are smaller than worlds and who live both on and off the worlds with world kings.

Because the whole point is that Kitchen Sink Fantasy allows you to tell many different kinds of stories. You don't need redundant inputs (so Thanatos the Belly of Death does not need to be a separate world from Abysm the Gaping Maw), but you do need all the meaningfully different inputs. Reductionism then, only takes us so far. We can clear away the idea of infinite layers of the Abyss. We can clear away infinite sizes of each layer of the Abyss. We can clear away the idea of Pandemonium and Carceri being different collections of worlds from the Abyss. But we still want the Abyss and Baator to be different worlds. And we still want both of them to be different worlds from Oerth.

On Transitive Planes, we get value added from the Astral Plane. We get value added from the Shadow Plane. We get value added from the Mirror Plane. But we don't get anything of value from having an Ethereal Plane. And we sure as fuck don't get anything of value from having a Limnal or Temporal plane.

The idea of cutting bullshit out of a Kitchen Sink Fantasy setting is that you cut as much as you can without reducing the stories you can tell. So Gehenna doesn't lose any storytelling capability by being a big volcano that happens to be on Baator somewhere. But making it so that there aren't any unowned demon worlds to fight over in the Acheron Cluster loses you the ability to tell stories about fighting over unowned demon worlds.

-Username17

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Sat Mar 28, 2015 7:51 am

Dean wrote:Depending on how many lanterns people have the options range between throwing a bunch of lanterns and burning down some crops with no casualties or sending people with torches to kill the locusts with casualties.

Now I'm just kind of envisioning a village that has more second sons than lanterns, so when the locusts descend they round up either all the first sons or all the second sons, hand each one a torch and tell them that if it goes out to grab the torch of the boy next to them.

Lokathor · Post by **Lokathor** » Sat Mar 28, 2015 8:38 am

I never really get why people are concerned about infinite planes. The real life universe is infinite, but most people still hardly care what's happening in the next city over. Even within fictional space where people can actually go to places outside of Earth, they're still in an "infinite" universe, but Star Trek mostly takes place within one corner of one galaxy. Stargate takes place on like less than 200 planets (assuming one world per ep, but many eps don't go to new worlds). So, whatever to infinity, but this is Kitchen Sink Fantasy, so there better be lots of worlds with lots of stuff, not just four of them.

That all said, some planes can have special status. It's fine to have a "normal world" Material Plane (and a coterminus Shadow Plane), an Astral Plane that connects all the others, some Elemental Planes that fuel the universe with thermodymanic-ignoring power, and then all the rest of the planes are Outer Planes all in cosmic orbit or whatever.

Frank's right though, we probably don't need an Ethereal Plane, except for a few weird spells and effects that can probably all be either re-written or cut.

Eikre wrote:A counter-proposal:

PROTECTING THE BALANCE

Eikre can I please include this, in my PDF? Well, like a modified form for the druid class entry. This gives druids a clear reason to exist separately from nature-god clerics, and I want that.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Sat Mar 28, 2015 8:54 am

Lokathor wrote:I never really get why people are concerned about infinite planes. The real life universe is infinite, but most people still hardly care what's happening in the next city over.

Very importantly, the real life universe is not infinite. It's 27 billion light years across and has 70 sextillion stars in it. That's much much larger than you could ever count or measure, but it's not infinity. Adding one to it or subtracting one from it still measurably changes what values it has. Which if it was actually infinite, it would not.

Because the universe is not infinite, but merely very big, you could potentially destroy all of something. All the German Shepherds, all the guys named Bob, whatever. If the universe was instead actually infinite in scope, there would be an infinite number of German Shepherds and you couldn't ever reduce the number below "infinity" no matter how many you killed.

For D&D we are of course concerned with Balors and Red Dragons instead of German Shepherds and guys named Bob, but it's still really important that things be "big" rather than "infinite."

-Username17

DSMatticus · Post by **DSMatticus** » Sat Mar 28, 2015 9:52 am

The White House absolutely cares about what happens in both New York and Dallas. It even cares about what happens in London, Berlin, Moscow, Beijing, Baghdad, Jerusalem, Tehran, Pyongyang, and etc, etc. You might not care about what happens in Dallas if you don't live there, but that's because you are unimportant and nothing that happens in Dallas can affect you and nothing you do can affect what happens in Dallas. But you're not playing an unimportant turnip farmer who doesn't care what happens in the next village over. You're playing a plane-hopping murderhobo who might one day stab Demogorgon in the face. The size of the Abyss is relevant to you in a way the size of the world isn't even relevant to most people alive today. And even if the universe were infinite (not a safe bet, the observable universe is certainly finite), the parts of it humanity can reach in anyway are incredibly finite (about one planet and if you're very lucky the rock floating around it). Unless you assume the infinite Abyss is infinitely empty and no one cares about any of it except the finite chunk in which all the action happens (... then why is it infinite?), then meaningfully impacting the Abyss as a whole is impossible. Because infinity.

Now, I do think you can use infinite to describe planes, but you have to use it like you're saying "here be dragons!" Demogorgon's domain borders the abyssal sea, and "everyone knows" that the sea itself stretches on without end. If you travel past the farthest documented islands, you will either turn back empty-handed or be torn apart by fiendish sea beasts. People have tried to explore it, and the ones that come back have yet to find anything of interest or strategic value, and a bunch don't come back at all, so everyone assumes that that boring uselessness stretches on forever. Whether or not it's actually infinite, who knows or cares? The point is that it's a blank space on the map that the DM can add things to mid-campaign without people asking "how come we didn't know that was there before?" And when you're talking about individuals with the logistical mobility of demons/devils, your explanation for uncharted territory needs to be something like "no one's ever found anything of strategic value outside the borders of the known world, so everyone just assumes it's an infinite expanse of boring, useless man-eating trees or whatever." And at that point, you've made the world effectively finite and the question of whether it's truly infinite is a question for philosophers, not adventurers.

tussock · Post by **tussock** » Sat Mar 28, 2015 10:17 am

Dean wrote:You're correct that this makes evocation slightly worse. I'm entirely ok with that though because evocation is garbage and needs to be entirely rewritten to function but these are my world improvement rules and not my evocation improvement rules so that can go somewhere else.

Fair enough. Weapons too, but meh. Thanks for the math, Dean and Seerow.

Is there anything going on with Gnolls and Bugbears and Ogres? Do all the humanoids below giants just ramp up the 3 HD? Or like PCs where it counts back as you gain racial HD?

Having a standard "+2 levels Warrior" template to drop on various things in the MM should make life easier.

+2d10+2xCon (11+) hp.
+2 BAB/Grap and attacks.
+1 all saves (nearly).
+1 feat (mostly).
+2 to skills.

#housecats can just do 0 damage before crits with a lot less fuss. Plus, Seerow, you overestimate what the 1st level commoner of 3e standard represents, a half-starved serf with zero education and near zero chances in life who is just going to lie down and die of shock from terror if a Wolf tears a chunk out of their spindly leg.

Anyway, cool thread, I'll shut up now.

Lokathor · Post by **Lokathor** » Sat Mar 28, 2015 10:21 am

Alright, alright, no more than 70 sextillion abyssal layers, each of which is no more than 20 billion light years across.

DSMatticus wrote:You're playing a plane-hopping murderhobo who might one day stab Demogorgon in the face. The size of the Abyss is relevant to you in a way the size of the world isn't even relevant to most people alive today.

What? If you're ready to stab Demogorgon in the face, you've got Plane Shift and you land on the target plane within a reasonable distance of him (5d100 is not insurmountable), no matter how big each abyssal layer is. Greater Teleport literally has no range limit as long as you're traveling within the same plane. An abyssal layer could be 100 billion light years across and you could still Greater Teleport there in one go.

If you're the kind of top level Adventurer within the Multiverse like the White House is on Earth, you've got access to the resources to make distances between things largely unimportant. The size of places actually only matters to low level people or when you're trying to do demographic-type shenanigans like "I want to kill all 300 balors in existence".

DSMatticus · Post by **DSMatticus** » Sat Mar 28, 2015 11:57 am

I... you're being dumb. Dumb is the thing you are being. The size of the Soviet Union is not important because it put all the the important bits outside the reach of nuclear hellfire (it didn't), it is important because territory contains resources! When you declare that the Abyss is infinite, you are declaring that nothing the PC's do is anything other than pissing in the ocean.

Here, read this: "While Baphomet's endless maze dominates most of the infinite layer..." How many of Baphomet's servants do you have to kill before Baphomet gives a fuck? Trick question, Baphomet will never give a fuck, he has infinity servants. You are seriously supposed to roll on a wandering monster table when exploring the Endless Maze. That maze contains infinity things, and some fraction of those infinity things (still infinity) are his followers, and some fraction of those infinity things (still infinity) have greater teleport. If you piss off Baphomet, he can dispatch a dude to contact some dudes to contact some other dudes until eventually every square as far as the eye can see from your last known position is filled with a high CR demon. And when you finally murder every single one of them, Baphomet will have exactly as many high CR demons left in his armies as he did before; infinity. If you show up at Baphomet's door the number of reinforcements that will arrive increases exponentially each round, because infinity and greater teleport.

It's the stupidest fucking thing ever. No, you cannot rule over an infinitely large domain. No, the part of the world that contains strategically valuable assets (like conscriptable demons) cannot be infinite.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Sat Mar 28, 2015 1:13 pm

Even terribly large things run into problems, actual infinity is simply stupid.

Putting blank spots on the map is valuable. It's even necessary, because it's places to put shit that the players or the MC make up. But there is a cost to every blank spot on the map. Every blank spot is a place that the MC has to start making shit up for if the players walk into it. And if the players keep walking into those blank spots, eventually the MC is going to run out of interesting things to say.

If you have seventy sextillion or even six hundred layers of the Abyss, the only thing that adds to the game is that the players can ask to go to the next one. And the next one. And the next one. Until you run out of things to say.

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[/img]

So let's say that you're designing a world for KSF and it's time to put some continents on the thing. You want some of the continents to be places where the "low tech" groups exist. Because it's unreasonable for the stone tool using Grimlocks and Troglodytes to live in the same caverns with the darksteel crafting Drow. At least, it's unreasonable for that to have been the situation for very long, so it would make sense if the continent where the Drow are from is a different one to the one where the Grimlocks and Troglodytes live.

And this continent can be given swamps and jungles on the surface and there can be Lizardfolk and Aaracockra living there. And no one works steel there, and that all lends a bit of verisimilitude to the whole endeavor. And the players get buy in about what they should encounter where, and if they want to fight those kinds of enemies, they know where to go.

But the MC needs to be able to add their own content. There need to be caves on the map whose contents are not described. There need to be jungles and swamps and shit whose contents are not described. And there needs to be room on the world for islands and continents that aren't known so that if people want to tell that story, they can.

But you know what the game doesn't need? It doesn't need five blank continents. That's extra work for the MC for no real gain.

-Username17

Grek · Post by **Grek** » Sat Mar 28, 2015 2:10 pm

There is absolutely no need for those demon worlds to be located on a different planet. The distance from the surface of Earth to Outer Space is 100km. The thickness of the mantle is 29000km. The deepest borehole ever dug was 12km. Even if you insist that each and every layer of both Baator and the Abyss be so cavernous that it is impossible to tell whether there's a ceiling and that each layer be separated by barriers so thick that they are impossible to breach by any method known to modern man, there is still room for both Asmodeus and Demogorgon to individually rule over infernal realms larger than the entire surface. Room enough to have contested areas between them ten times as vast, with individual subdivisions merely the size of continents. That is plenty. More than plenty. And if you still, somehow, need to have someone come in from somewhere even more alien, there's other planets in the solar system for your aberrations and void devils to invade from.

hyzmarca · Post by **hyzmarca** » Sat Mar 28, 2015 2:31 pm

DSMatticus wrote:
Here, read this: "While Baphomet's endless maze dominates most of the infinite layer..." How many of Baphomet's servants do you have to kill before Baphomet gives a fuck? Trick question, Baphomet will never give a fuck, he has infinity servants. You are seriously supposed to roll on a wandering monster table when exploring the Endless Maze. That maze contains infinity things, and some fraction of those infinity things (still infinity) are his followers, and some fraction of those infinity things (still infinity) have greater teleport. If you piss off Baphomet, he can dispatch a dude to contact some dudes to contact some other dudes until eventually every square as far as the eye can see from your last known position is filled with a high CR demon. And when you finally murder every single one of them, Baphomet will have exactly as many high CR demons left in his armies as he did before; infinity. If you show up at Baphomet's door the number of reinforcements that will arrive increases exponentially each round, because infinity and greater teleport.

That's not actually true. Infinity just means "increases without bounds". Literally, that's what infinity means. Boundless.

It does not, however, mean limitless. You can, in fact, take a limit of a thing at infinity.

But really, the important thing for baphomet is the rate at which his infinite maze, and the monsters within it, increases. And this can be expressed as a function relative to time.

So lets say that f(t) = 1/2 (fourth root of t) and we defined t as time in minutes.

When we graph that we can very clearly see that the expansion of the maze is constantly slowing, and slowing exponentially, but it will never stop. But that does not mean that Baphomet has access to an arbitrary number of demons at any give time t.

If we randomly pick 100 billion minutes into the expansion of the maze, by the arbitrary formula we picked, he would have access to 50 demons.

That is to say, there are infinite demons in the maze, and the maze is infinite, but at t=1 billion minutes, there are only 50 demons in the maze. In order to actually have access to an infinite number of demons, he'd have to wait for t=infinity, which is impossible.

Of course, any function that invovles 4th roots is going to slow to a crawl very quickly. It's more likely that the function is liner. But it's still the case that the number of demons available to Baphomet at any give time is dependant on the time since the maze began expanding.

FrankTrollman wrote:
Lokathor wrote:I never really get why people are concerned about infinite planes. The real life universe is infinite, but most people still hardly care what's happening in the next city over.
Very importantly, the real life universe is not infinite. It's 27 billion light years across and has 70 sextillion stars in it. That's much much larger than you could ever count or measure, but it's not infinity. Adding one to it or subtracting one from it still measurably changes what values it has. Which if it was actually infinite, it would not.

The real life universe is also expanding faster than the speed of light and will likely never stop expanding. And the 27 billion lightyears is for the visible universe, which is only what we can see because everything beyond that is moving away from us faster than light, and thus that light will never ever reach us.

Because the universe is not infinite, but merely very big, you could potentially destroy all of something. All the German Shepherds, all the guys named Bob, whatever. If the universe was instead actually infinite in scope, there would be an infinite number of German Shepherds and you couldn't ever reduce the number below "infinity" no matter how many you killed.

An infinite universe does not imply infinite Bobs, because the Bob reproduction function is different from the universe expansion function.

If Bob(t) = 1, then there is only 1 Bob, ever. And there is never any less than 1 Bob. And that's a perfectly viable function. Whomever slays Bob becomes Bob.

But Bob(t) is completely divorced from Universe(t).
And maybe Bob (Universe) is (n/U) such that Bob approaches 0 as the Universe approaches infinity

Orca · Post by **Orca** » Sat Mar 28, 2015 3:14 pm

Uh, no. Infinity in this context means 'boundless', not 'increases without bounds'. If Baphomet's maze has a size of one square mile right now but next year it'll be 1.05 square miles that maze is not infinite in size. In the same way that if you have $1000 in your bank account now and counting interest, you might have $1050 this time next year does not make your bank account infinite in size.

Trying to make an infinitely large maze work with a finite number of demons will make the maze essentially unoccupied so that's out. To make any kind of sense Baphomet's maze needs to have a finite (though possibly not actually defined) size, even if it loops back on itself with geometric tricks.

Edit: and yes, a size which is a function of time can still be finite at any given time.

momothefiddler · Post by **momothefiddler** » Sat Mar 28, 2015 3:29 pm

hyzmarca wrote:Infinity just means "increases without bounds". Literally, that's what infinity means. Boundless.

Okay first off "Infinite" is a cardinality (properly a set of cardinalities) and "increases without bounds" is not. One is a trait of a set, the other is a trait of a function, and the confusion is what leads to this nonsense:

hyzmarca wrote:It does not, however, mean limitless.

It does.

hyzmarca wrote:You can, in fact, take a limit of a thing at infinity.

Only if it does not in fact increase without bounds. I think you're confusing the independent variable going to infinity with the dependent variable(s) going to infinity. If f(x) does not exist as x increases without bound, but lim(f(x)) does, f(x) is not infinite. Take f(x)=-1/x.

hyzmarca wrote:That is to say, there are infinite demons in the maze, and the maze is infinite, but at t=1 billion minutes, there are only 50 demons in the maze.

Even if the demons are "only" countably infinite, there are by definition enough to count 50 of them and keep going. I don't think that people are complaining about planes with population that could under certain circumstances (e.g. after the passage of infinite time, barring the point that infinite time has already passed on many planes I think?) be infinite. I think the objection is with populations that are infinite. Similarly, DSM's quote didn't say "Baphomet's Maze covers finite area but continues expanding and thus its area diverges as t increases without bound" because that's, like, irrelevant.

Seerow · Post by **Seerow** » Sat Mar 28, 2015 3:33 pm

The idea of cutting bullshit out of a Kitchen Sink Fantasy setting is that you cut as much as you can without reducing the stories you can tell. So Gehenna doesn't lose any storytelling capability by being a big volcano that happens to be on Baator somewhere. But making it so that there aren't any unowned demon worlds to fight over in the Acheron Cluster loses you the ability to tell stories about fighting over unowned demon worlds.

Okay so you decide as part of the kitchen sink, multiple worlds to fight over are needed.

Well there are multiple worlds in our universe without needing to go to alternate planes. Even if we jetison that concept as either not there or not relevant for the Prime Material plane, you could have the Hell Plane actually made up of a cluster of (relatively) tiny planets.

Make it a couple dozen planets that are close enough to teleport between (which now conveniently gives those demons a reason to have greater teleport at will) but far enough apart to be distinct domains and have various demon lords fighting over them. Say you have a 2-4 demon kings who collectively control about 6-10 of these two dozen planetoids, and the remaining are in a state of constant warfare between those demon kings and upcoming warlords looking to stake their claim.

You can even go all star wars and say "this is the ocean planet. This is the fire planet. This is the ice planet" and so on, if you really wanted to.

Edit: Forgot to mention. The reason I prefer "have a bunch of relatively close planets in one plane" over "half a couple dozen planes that are mostly similar" is I actually liked the part of the Cosmology that described Good's ability to plane shift as an advantage over Evil. Good can come and go from their home plane when they want, but it is much harder for Evil. If you have each demon planet be a separate plane, you can't actually tell stories about demons from different planets going to war with each other without giving away that advantage.

You do lose the ability to have a place where angels and demons are warring actively... but by the cosmology depicted open war results in a loss for good instantly. So I don't think the two are really compatible. The open war is the ongoing guerilla war between the two sides. If you absolutely need a place where angels and demons are coexisting peacefully for a story, that could be something as simple as an island somewhere on the prime material where a handful of refugees from both cultures have gone to hide out from the rest of the universe.

DSMatticus · Post by **DSMatticus** » Sat Mar 28, 2015 4:32 pm

Hyzmarca, you don't know what you're talking about. Let's talk about three distinct things: the universe, the observable universe, and the Endless Maze. Because I'm pretty sure reading a bunch of cosmology is how you've confused yourself.

The universe is either infinite or finite and we have no idea which. When we talk about the boundedness of the universe, we are asking the question; "is spacetime more like a plane or more like a sphere?" If spacetime is more like a plane, you can take two particles and move them apart without bound. If spacetime is more like a sphere, there is a limit to how far apart you can move two particles before you are actually moving them closer together again, just like if you were tracing your fingers around the outside of a globe. We are not talking about the maximum distance between any two particles. If the universe is finite, then obviously there is a maximum distance between any two particles (pick the two points furthest apart from one another that the topology allows, voila). If the universe is infinite but contains a finite amount of stuff, then obviously there is a maximum distance between any two particles (pick the two particles furthest apart from one another, voila), but the universe is still infinite because you could take those two particles and continue moving them apart forever. We are not talking about the size of the universe at t = infinity. The universe has whatever topology it has. We are talking about the topology it has at t = now.

The observable universe is finite. It will always be finite. There is no time t among the real numbers at which the size of the observable universe will be infinite. But the observable universe is expanding, and not only that the expansion is accelerating. The observable universe is larger at t+1 than t, and it is larger by a larger amount than it was at t and t-1, and we're pretty sure that that's going to continue being true forever. As t approaches infinity, the size of the observable universe will approach infinity. And the observable universe is still finite, for the exact same reason that when people ask my age I don't tell them "I am the alpha and the omega." As t approaches infinity my age approaches infinity (ignoring the pesky philosophical question of whether or not I stop aging when I die), but my age is still actually finite. As t approaches infinity the size of the observable universe approaches infinity, but the size of the observable universe is actually still finite. The limit of f(x) is not the same thing as f(x). Note that the observable universe does not technically encompass the entirety of the big bang, but everything I said about the observable universe applies to the big bang as well. Unless it doesn't, because there's something we don't know. And there might be stuff out there that has nothing to do with our inconsequential little burst of creation.

The Endless Maze is infinite. There is no time t at which the size of the Endless Maze is finite. The size of the Endless Maze is infinite for each time t. The Endless Maze has a fucking wandering monster table. Despite it being infinite in size, you can wander it and encounter things. The Endless Maze contains infinite stuff. The Endless Maze is infinite in size and contains infinite demons when the PC's go there.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Sat Mar 28, 2015 6:03 pm

Seerow wrote:Well there are multiple worlds in our universe without needing to go to alternate planes. Even if we jetison that concept as either not there or not relevant for the Prime Material plane, you could have the Hell Plane actually made up of a cluster of (relatively) tiny planets.

Make it a couple dozen planets that are close enough to teleport between (which now conveniently gives those demons a reason to have greater teleport at will) but far enough apart to be distinct domains and have various demon lords fighting over them. Say you have a 2-4 demon kings who collectively control about 6-10 of these two dozen planetoids, and the remaining are in a state of constant warfare between those demon kings and upcoming warlords looking to stake their claim.

You don't know what Greater Teleport does. This is abundantly clear.

Seerow · Post by **Seerow** » Sat Mar 28, 2015 6:29 pm

Kaelik wrote:
Seerow wrote:Well there are multiple worlds in our universe without needing to go to alternate planes. Even if we jetison that concept as either not there or not relevant for the Prime Material plane, you could have the Hell Plane actually made up of a cluster of (relatively) tiny planets.

Make it a couple dozen planets that are close enough to teleport between (which now conveniently gives those demons a reason to have greater teleport at will) but far enough apart to be distinct domains and have various demon lords fighting over them. Say you have a 2-4 demon kings who collectively control about 6-10 of these two dozen planetoids, and the remaining are in a state of constant warfare between those demon kings and upcoming warlords looking to stake their claim.
You don't know what Greater Teleport does. This is abundantly clear.

Why, because I mentioned relatively close together? I mean sure, you could theoretically have the planetoids a million lightyears apart and still greater teleport between them, but then that raises the question of how they got to these various places in the first place. Put them close enough together that you can look into the sky and see them and every demon automatically can greater teleport there without needing any specific knowledge. That's really all I was getting at there.

schpeelah · Post by **schpeelah** » Sat Mar 28, 2015 7:01 pm

DSMatticus wrote: The observable universe is finite. It will always be finite. There is no time t among the real numbers at which the size of the observable universe will be infinite. But the observable universe is expanding, and not only that the expansion is accelerating.

That is not how the observable universe works. The size of observable universe is determined by the distance where the expansion of the universe moves things away from you at the speed of light. Its size is constant for any given speed of expansion, and the accelerating expansion makes the observable universe shrink.

And in the end, these things don't really matter. What matters is the size of the area you can interact with. The existence of Mars is close to irrelevant to anyone because people don't go there and things don't come back from there. A fantasy world could have its continents on an infinite plane of water and it wouldn't matter because there are no transport options beyond a boat and there is nothing within crossable distance beyond a certain threshold. But D&D has Greater Teleport and Plane Shift and planar rulers who exert influence over the entire plane as part of their essential concept and it's important that they do not have infinite resources and minions.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Sat Mar 28, 2015 7:47 pm

Seerow wrote:
Kaelik wrote:
Seerow wrote:Well there are multiple worlds in our universe without needing to go to alternate planes. Even if we jetison that concept as either not there or not relevant for the Prime Material plane, you could have the Hell Plane actually made up of a cluster of (relatively) tiny planets.

Make it a couple dozen planets that are close enough to teleport between (which now conveniently gives those demons a reason to have greater teleport at will) but far enough apart to be distinct domains and have various demon lords fighting over them. Say you have a 2-4 demon kings who collectively control about 6-10 of these two dozen planetoids, and the remaining are in a state of constant warfare between those demon kings and upcoming warlords looking to stake their claim.
You don't know what Greater Teleport does. This is abundantly clear.
Why, because I mentioned relatively close together? I mean sure, you could theoretically have the planetoids a million lightyears apart and still greater teleport between them, but then that raises the question of how they got to these various places in the first place. Put them close enough together that you can look into the sky and see them and every demon automatically can greater teleport there without needing any specific knowledge. That's really all I was getting at there.

The actual spell text of Greater Teleport wrote:In addition, you need not have seen the destination, but in that case you must have at least a reliable description of the place to which you are teleporting.

This is the only meaningful part that is different from Teleport, which says "You must have some clear idea of the location and layout of the destination. The clearer your mental image, the more likely the teleportation works. Areas of strong physical or magical energy may make teleportation more hazardous or even impossible."

So in fact, in your hypothetical example of tiny planets close together, if the planets were approximately as far away as Venus or Mars is from us, Demons would be incapable of Greater Teleporting to them by looking at the sky.

On the other hand, the very first time someone cast Lesser Planar Binding and bound an Imp, that imp could teleport back home, then describe the location to all the other demons, and then all the Demons on an entire planet could greater teleport to the material planet, and rape and pillage for centuries, always retreating to their home world in a single standard action, and then reappearing somewhere within sight and murdering more people.

So in conclusion, because you don't understand how Greater Teleport works you just described a system where Demons don't fight wars on their own planets, because the can't really reach the Devils they want to fight, but both Demons and Devils can all go to the material plane whenever they want.

Seerow · Post by **Seerow** » Sat Mar 28, 2015 8:20 pm

Kaelik wrote:
The actual spell text of Greater Teleport wrote:In addition, you need not have seen the destination, but in that case you must have at least a reliable description of the place to which you are teleporting.
This is the only meaningful part that is different from Teleport, which says "You must have some clear idea of the location and layout of the destination. The clearer your mental image, the more likely the teleportation works. Areas of strong physical or magical energy may make teleportation more hazardous or even impossible."

So in fact, in your hypothetical example of tiny planets close together, if the planets were approximately as far away as Venus or Mars is from us, Demons would be incapable of Greater Teleporting to them by looking at the sky.

On the other hand, the very first time someone cast Lesser Planar Binding and bound an Imp, that imp could teleport back home, then describe the location to all the other demons, and then all the Demons on an entire planet could greater teleport to the material planet, and rape and pillage for centuries, always retreating to their home world in a single standard action, and then reappearing somewhere within sight and murdering more people.

So in conclusion, because you don't understand how Greater Teleport works you just described a system where Demons don't fight wars on their own planets, because the can't really reach the Devils they want to fight, but both Demons and Devils can all go to the material plane whenever they want.

1) Prime Material would still be a separate plane. So no, they can't just teleport there after having been summoned there once before. The idea is that the Hell Plane as previously described is made up of a couple dozen smaller planets, not that all of the planes ever described are actually planets.

2) If you can look and see something, you can Greater Teleport there. That is explicitly what the description you quoted states. The spell description doesn't say you have to have been there, just have seen it. So if the planetoids are close enough together that you can see them from each other, you're close enough that demons with no other knowledge of the location can teleport there.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Sat Mar 28, 2015 8:38 pm

Grek wrote:There is absolutely no need for those demon worlds to be located on a different planet. The distance from the surface of Earth to Outer Space is 100km. The thickness of the mantle is 29000km. The deepest borehole ever dug was 12km. Even if you insist that each and every layer of both Baator and the Abyss be so cavernous that it is impossible to tell whether there's a ceiling and that each layer be separated by barriers so thick that they are impossible to breach by any method known to modern man, there is still room for both Asmodeus and Demogorgon to individually rule over infernal realms larger than the entire surface. Room enough to have contested areas between them ten times as vast, with individual subdivisions merely the size of continents. That is plenty. More than plenty. And if you still, somehow, need to have someone come in from somewhere even more alien, there's other planets in the solar system for your aberrations and void devils to invade from.

The point isn't that Asmodeus has a realm that's big. The important thing is that he's a guy who rules a planet. Planet Doom seems like a kind of shitty place, but the fact that King Zarkon rules it means that he's fundamentally different from a guy who just had a big empire somewhere.

But the distances thing really is also importantly different. A coterminus plane that is on the other side of the mirror is very close but you can only get there through rituals and special equipment. There's a built-in "you must be this tall to get there" sticker and it can be used for locked room mysteries and shit. A big underdark or lost world or whatever is basically just "kind of far away" plus the added restriction that there are potentially limited routes to get there - whatever holes in the land you have to climb down take the place of mountain passes to a reasonably near but somewhat inaccessible country. Meanwhile, a world that is in the same universe but surrounding a distant star is accessible by stargate and spaceship, but not by any possible form of range-limited travel.

These are all different. In meaningful, potentially level-tierable ways. And that's a valuable thing for a kitchen sink fantasy setting to have.

-Username17

Grek · Post by **Grek** » Sat Mar 28, 2015 8:54 pm

I get that. What I don't get is why we want Asmodeus to be a planetary ruler. Why do we want Baator to be the one you reach by space ship? Why do we want devils to come through using stargates? Surely, that should be the role of the Ithillids and the Xill?

Lokathor · Post by **Lokathor** » Sat Mar 28, 2015 9:21 pm

DSMatticus wrote:I... you're being dumb. Dumb is the thing you are being. The size of the Soviet Union is not important because it put all the the important bits outside the reach of nuclear hellfire (it didn't), it is important because territory contains resources! When you declare that the Abyss is infinite, you are declaring that nothing the PC's do is anything other than pissing in the ocean.

Hey, I just agreed to have it not have any plane be literally infinite. Calm down.

In terms of anything that the PCs do in the Abyss being a drop in the ocean if the Abyss has "too many" layers, I'm fine with that. I really am. If that makes some people not care about the Abyss and just want to play on other planes that's really okay to me, because not everyone will care about everything. I don't care about the City of Brass, but I love Mechanus and Limbo. That's just how it goes.

I mean, people can't literally reform all of 40K by taking it all over or anything like that, and yet people play in the 40K universe. The Enterprise can't literally save every single planet in the Milky Way Galaxy, and yet people watch the Enterprise save this planet this week. And they'll do it again next week too. And after watching all 728 episodes of Star Trek across 6 series, people will still want to play their own Star Trek adventures too.

FrankTrollman wrote:Putting blank spots on the map is valuable. It's even necessary, because it's places to put shit that the players or the MC make up. But there is a cost to every blank spot on the map. Every blank spot is a place that the MC has to start making shit up for if the players walk into it. And if the players keep walking into those blank spots, eventually the MC is going to run out of interesting things to say.

But there should never be an absence of blank spots to explore. Running out of places to explore is for computer games like Skyrim and Baldur's Gate, where the devs have to put it all in ahead of time. As soon as you say "that's is, you've explored all there is to explore", the game just deflates to me. Finding a new place and doing a thing there that makes you and your friends remember the place and then finding the next one, to me that's the entire game loop of DnD.

Saying that you can't have too many blank spots because the GM can't always think of what to fill them all with right away seems as silly to me as saying that that a town can't have 2,000 citizens in it, because the GM can't always think of 2,000 names right away if the players ask to meet every one of them and learn all their names. The players can always potentially make unrealistic demands of the GM's narrative capacity.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Sat Mar 28, 2015 9:37 pm

Seerow wrote:1) Prime Material would still be a separate plane. So no, they can't just teleport there after having been summoned there once before. The idea is that the Hell Plane as previously described is made up of a couple dozen smaller planets, not that all of the planes ever described are actually planets.

Well then you are completely full of shit because the entire point of the post I quoted was you talking about how our universe has multiple planets on the same plane so the fucking D&D one could have all the planes be planets on the same plane. You specifically talked about having ice planets, fire planets, and hell planets and material planet and not fucking planes.

Seerow wrote:2) If you can look and see something, you can Greater Teleport there. That is explicitly what the description you quoted states. The spell description doesn't say you have to have been there, just have seen it. So if the planetoids are close enough together that you can see them from each other, you're close enough that demons with no other knowledge of the location can teleport there.

No it fucking doesn't say that. At all. Even a little bit. You fucking idiot.