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Username17
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Post by Username17 »

Orion wrote:Frank, Could you elaborate on the benefits of a well-run metaplot?
Would you rather play in the Star Wars universe or a generic science fantasy world with magic samurai and lasers? If you're 90% of nerds, the answer is the former. And that is because of metaplot.

A world of fiction is defined by the stories told in it. In an RPG, the players will collectively generate a story. Maybe even several stories, either concurrently or one at a time. But if that's all there is, that's not much of a fictional world. The best fictional worlds are ones where people want to read the next book or watch a spinoff series or whatever.

The metaplot is a series of stories that players of the game can read and share. Stories that go into peoples' fictional worlds alongside the stories they make for themselves to create a bigger, richer, and more fully realized world of fiction.

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Post by OgreBattle »

I wonder if something like M:tG's cycles/blocks could be a good model for a tRPG's 'metaplot'/release schedule.

For the block you focus on one setting, with the first releases introducing the setting that has relevant adventure modules, monsters, character classes, and then one or two more sets that advance the , introduces more stuff for PC's to interact with, and concludes the metaplot for the block.

It could also be a way to release 'errata', so if your warrior class turned out to be underpowered crap in the ice age block they'd get a slew of new abilities or straight up replacement classes in the later block about adventurers in the land of floating polyhedrons. If it turns out your wizard spells were way too stupidly powerful in the first block, you just don't allow the game breaking ones for following blocks.
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Post by Concise Locket »

FrankTrollman wrote:Would you rather play in the Star Wars universe or a generic science fantasy world with magic samurai and lasers? If you're 90% of nerds, the answer is the former. And that is because of metaplot.
No, that's because of setting.

Unless we're talking about the Jungian aspect, metaplot's not a term used by most fiction writers and I've never heard it used outside of TTRPG systems. Unless a group of gamers are running a campaign that's purposely concurrent to the events of the films (or a series of novels or a run of comics), are playing as the film's protagonists, or are somehow influenced by Luke/Chewie/Leia being on Yavin 4 on date X and then on Hoth on date Y, it's not applicable or relevant.

Gamers play Star Wars because they want to play a Wookiee Jedi or whatever, not because of the plots of the parent media products. Or if they are, it's only a very loose springboard. I also reject the idea that shared game narratives are lessened because they aren't influenced by or don't influence a greater narrative created by a third party.
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Post by TheFlatline »

Concise Locket wrote:
FrankTrollman wrote:Would you rather play in the Star Wars universe or a generic science fantasy world with magic samurai and lasers? If you're 90% of nerds, the answer is the former. And that is because of metaplot.
No, that's because of setting.

Unless we're talking about the Jungian aspect, metaplot's not a term used by most fiction writers and I've never heard it used outside of TTRPG systems. Unless a group of gamers are running a campaign that's purposely concurrent to the events of the films (or a series of novels or a run of comics), are playing as the film's protagonists, or are somehow influenced by Luke/Chewie/Leia being on Yavin 4 on date X and then on Hoth on date Y, it's not applicable or relevant.

Gamers play Star Wars because they want to play a Wookiee Jedi or whatever, not because of the plots of the parent media products. Or if they are, it's only a very loose springboard. I also reject the idea that shared game narratives are lessened because they aren't influenced by or don't influence a greater narrative created by a third party.
That... isn't the worst counter argument I've seen until you realize that the entire dating system of Star Wars as a setting is dependent on the metaplot event of the Battle of Yavin. Like seriously even the RPGs use phrases like "20 years ABY" for After the Battle of Yavin.

If someone asks "when does the star wars game take place", and let's face it they *all* do, by necessity they are building off of the metaplot that's going on around that time. So if you answer "during the clone wars" that's going to change the game significantly than if you say "ESB era".

With Star Wars, the metaplot specifically shapes the setting in very tangible terms.
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Post by Stubbazubba »

Concise Locket wrote:Unless we're talking about the Jungian aspect, metaplot's not a term used by most fiction writers and I've never heard it used outside of TTRPG systems.
Well, yeah, because only a handful of mediums really have this capability, but it's absolutely the case that whenever multiple lines of stories share the same universe, you have a metaplot, whether it's called an Expanded Universe, a crossover event, or a shared cinematic universe.
Unless a group of gamers are running a campaign that's purposely concurrent to the events of the films (or a series of novels or a run of comics), are playing as the film's protagonists, or are somehow influenced by Luke/Chewie/Leia being on Yavin 4 on date X and then on Hoth on date Y, it's not applicable or relevant.
Every licensed Star Wars RPG I've read assumes the party will be playing in the shadows of the canon films, at least initially, that they'll be playing Shadows of the Empire and filling in the details between or behind the events in the movies. Most of them do branch out from there, and your third or fourth game set in Star Wars probably does depart dramatically to explore new territory untethered to any greater plot point, but the default assumption is that you play with a connection to the metaplot.
Gamers play Star Wars because they want to play a Wookiee Jedi or whatever, not because of the plots of the parent media products. Or if they are, it's only a very loose springboard.
But there's a lot of conceptual overlap between the Star Wars setting and the Star Wars metaplot. The setting is a galaxy with a certain frozen-in-time tech level, certain political and racial groups, and magic that can be used by space samurai. The metaplot includes all of the actual plot points; every detail of the rebellion against the Empire is plot, and any plot that transcends a single storyline is a metaplot.

Gamers play Star Wars because they want to jump into the fight between the Rebel Alliance and the Galactic Empire, or they want to jump into the criminal underbelly on the Outer Rim and play as dashing smugglers and wicked awesome bounty hunters pulling off jobs while avoiding the ire of the fleet of Star Destroyers one system over. The former is absolutely metaplot-based, the latter less so, but it's a difference in degree, not in kind. Even though the Rebel Alliance and the Galactic Empire are almost just generic stand-ins, they're not actually generic; they have their own look and feel and history to them, and players hate or love them based on the metaplot, not on what they archetypically represent. Those impressions inform the play in the individual games. They want to play that fight, not just one substantially like it that addresses the same themes. That's metaplot.
I also reject the idea that shared game narratives are lessened because they aren't influenced by or don't influence a greater narrative created by a third party.
Tell that to the Star Wars EU that's about to be erased from canon when the new films drop. I suppose each novel is enjoyable on its own merits, but the strength of that brand had a lot to do with its connection to the canon films and to each other. An alternate universe is never going to be as important as the official universe; the chance to set a story in the official universe is just more appealing than to set one in an alternate universe, both for authors and for gamers. That's why people do what it takes to play within the lines of the Star Wars metaplot. This is even more true of those playing Lord of the Rings games set in the War of the Ring. You can reject the idea all you want, and it's certainly not true for everyone, but by and large people value official stories more than they value AU stories.
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Post by Concise Locket »

TheFlatline wrote:That... isn't the worst counter argument I've seen until you realize that the entire dating system of Star Wars as a setting is dependent on the metaplot event of the Battle of Yavin. Like seriously even the RPGs use phrases like "20 years ABY" for After the Battle of Yavin.

If someone asks "when does the star wars game take place", and let's face it they *all* do, by necessity they are building off of the metaplot that's going on around that time. So if you answer "during the clone wars" that's going to change the game significantly than if you say "ESB era".

With Star Wars, the metaplot specifically shapes the setting in very tangible terms.
The Battle of Yavin isn't a metaplot event, it's a plot event that was recorded in the films. That's like saying the return of magic in the Shadowrun universe is a metaplot event. It already happened in the timeline when the first book dropped. It's setting material.

Star Wars adventures take place up and down the timeline from the BoY but it's not a metaplot event if it was already engraved in canon 10 years before the first RPG adaption was released by West End Games.

If a setting's timeline of events is common public knowledge and pre-determined, the term metaplot no longer applies. Players are shaping their actions based on what has already occurred in a setting, not on new setting-shaping events from the game publisher.
Stubbazubba wrote:But there's a lot of conceptual overlap between the Star Wars setting and the Star Wars metaplot. The setting is a galaxy with a certain frozen-in-time tech level, certain political and racial groups, and magic that can be used by space samurai. The metaplot includes all of the actual plot points; every detail of the rebellion against the Empire is plot, and any plot that transcends a single storyline is a metaplot.
That's such a broad definition that's it's effectively meaningless. At best, metaplot is present history within a setting. All actual plot points including the history of and actions taken against the Empire and even points that transcend the storyline still make up the overarching story.
Stubbazubba wrote:Tell that to the Star Wars EU that's about to be erased from canon when the new films drop. I suppose each novel is enjoyable on its own merits, but the strength of that brand had a lot to do with its connection to the canon films and to each other. An alternate universe is never going to be as important as the official universe; the chance to set a story in the official universe is just more appealing than to set one in an alternate universe, both for authors and for gamers. That's why people do what it takes to play within the lines of the Star Wars metaplot. This is even more true of those playing Lord of the Rings games set in the War of the Ring. You can reject the idea all you want, and it's certainly not true for everyone, but by and large people value official stories more than they value AU stories.
The interconnections of the EU was also it's biggest weakness unless Jaxon the Space Rabbit, the Ewok Adventure and Palpatine's cyclops son have suddenly been elevated among fans.

Good stories are valued more than official rubber-stamps. People who assume that a story set in a corporate canon universe is more worthy of value are non-critical suckers or - even worse - slaves to a brand. See Shadowrun 5th ed. fans.

The Star Wars prequels are still badly written and poorly filmed rubbish despite being the top tier of canon. Writers/creators working on licensed tie-in properties that reference those films, such as the Clone Wars, will bend over backwards to either recontextualize or hide the most egregious story-telling offenses Lucas committed. But even the best writers can't hide that Jar-Jar still exists and will even introduce new grotesques, like Truman Capote the Hutt.
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Post by Starmaker »

Concise Locket wrote:The Battle of Yavin isn't a metaplot event, it's a plot event that was recorded in the films. That's like saying the return of magic in the Shadowrun universe is a metaplot event. It already happened in the timeline when the first book dropped. It's setting material.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Old_Republic_era
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Battle_of_Yavin

The battle of Yavin is a plot event in a Star Wars movie. It's a metaplot event in a Star Wars roleplaying game product. You can play a Star Wars game before the Battle of Yavin. You can play Star Wars after the battle of Yavin. You can play a Star Wars where it never happens -- but the official material will make the assumption that it did, and when you announce your game, you'll say "It's set in the Star Wars universe in an alternate 5 ABY where the battle of Yavin didn't happen", and people will know what you're referring to. That's what makes it metaplot.

The return of magic in Shadowrun is a setting premise. Without it, there's no Shadowrun.
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Post by Stubbazubba »

Concise Locket wrote:
TheFlatline wrote:That... isn't the worst counter argument I've seen until you realize that the entire dating system of Star Wars as a setting is dependent on the metaplot event of the Battle of Yavin. Like seriously even the RPGs use phrases like "20 years ABY" for After the Battle of Yavin.

If someone asks "when does the star wars game take place", and let's face it they *all* do, by necessity they are building off of the metaplot that's going on around that time. So if you answer "during the clone wars" that's going to change the game significantly than if you say "ESB era".

With Star Wars, the metaplot specifically shapes the setting in very tangible terms.
The Battle of Yavin isn't a metaplot event, it's a plot event that was recorded in the films. That's like saying the return of magic in the Shadowrun universe is a metaplot event. It already happened in the timeline when the first book dropped. It's setting material.
No, it's not. The game is not about dealing with the Battle of Yavin, that's just one point, albeit a somewhat significant one, in a larger timeline of events that you may be playing on. You could play before the Battle of Yavin and it would not change the setting at all.
Star Wars adventures take place up and down the timeline from the BoY but it's not a metaplot event if it was already engraved in canon 10 years before the first RPG adaption was released by West End Games.

If a setting's timeline of events is common public knowledge and pre-determined, the term metaplot no longer applies. Players are shaping their actions based on what has already occurred in a setting, not on new setting-shaping events from the game publisher.
Your definition of metaplot is extremely narrow, then. If it only applies to new, larger setting events that must come from the game publisher, then it is both narrow and incoherent. So a setting event, by this definition, is meta-plot before it's released and while you're playing the material wherein it occurs, but once it's passed on it's not meta-plot, it's setting? So any given event from the publisher could be setting to one player and meta-plot to another, depending on whether or not they've played that material yet? That is a useless definition.
Stubbazubba wrote:But there's a lot of conceptual overlap between the Star Wars setting and the Star Wars metaplot. The setting is a galaxy with a certain frozen-in-time tech level, certain political and racial groups, and magic that can be used by space samurai. The metaplot includes all of the actual plot points; every detail of the rebellion against the Empire is plot, and any plot that transcends a single storyline is a metaplot.
That's such a broad definition that's it's effectively meaningless. At best, metaplot is present history within a setting. All actual plot points including the history of and actions taken against the Empire and even points that transcend the storyline still make up the overarching story.
You're drawing lines between meta-plot and overarching story? Where meta-plot is just "an overarching story that comes from the game company instead of from the movie company?" That's a stupid definition. Both have the exact same impact on a table's setting; either they adopt it and it becomes part of the particular story of that table, or they ignore it because it conflicts with the story they have going, and now their story is an AU.
The interconnections of the EU was also it's biggest weakness unless Jaxon the Space Rabbit, the Ewok Adventure and Palpatine's cyclops son have suddenly been elevated among fans.

Good stories are valued more than official rubber-stamps. People who assume that a story set in a corporate canon universe is more worthy of value are non-critical suckers or - even worse - slaves to a brand. See Shadowrun 5th ed. fans.

The Star Wars prequels are still badly written and poorly filmed rubbish despite being the top tier of canon. Writers/creators working on licensed tie-in properties that reference those films, such as the Clone Wars, will bend over backwards to either recontextualize or hide the most egregious story-telling offenses Lucas committed. But even the best writers can't hide that Jar-Jar still exists and will even introduce new grotesques, like Truman Capote the Hutt.
That is all true, but it doesn't mean that people care any less about official versus alternate universe. It still makes some difference. There are people who fully recognize that the prequels are crap and the EU is mostly crap, but would still prefer to set their game in the official timeline, so they fast forward or backward a few centuries or millennia and put their story there, on a blank spot in the official timeline. Just because it is not the single, determining factor for every table's decisions doesn't mean it isn't an important factor.
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