DSMatticus wrote:Let me say with as little condescension as possible that I don't think you really understood what made 3.5 caster edition. 3.5 was not caster edition because it had some cheesy bullshit (and while PF tossed out some of the cheese they've created plenty of their own to replace it, so you can't really claim an improvement in this area - if you think there has been, dumpster dive harder). 3.5 was caster edition because even without attempting to pile cheese into a mountain that reaches the heavens, casters were just plain better than you.
The cleric is a better fighter than the fighter, and is also a full caster on top of that. The druid is a better fighter than the fighter, gets a pet who is a better fighter than the fighter, and is also a full caster on top of that. The wizard if they really, really want to be can still be a better fighter than the fighter, but it doesn't really matter because the reason wizards are awesome is because for a single spell they can (and usually will) deny multiple opponents actions for multiple rounds, reducing the fight to little more than cleanup. And with hitpoint bloat being what it is, the fighter swinging his sword just cannot deal enough damage to matter next to the the wizard's red-light-green-light control of the battle.
And that was even more true in 3.5, in particular because the cleric/wizard could call an even stronger cleric/wizard as a standard action.
So again, where did PF did worst than them in that department?
DSMatticus wrote:
In PF, every casting class has additional features baked right into it relative to its 3.5 counterpart - it's a straight up buff, and if you look hard enough some of them are actually awesome.
Between 3.5's ACFs like Abrupt Jaunt and Precocious Apprentice, stuff like Hummingbird Familiar, and super specialist that could be taken at 2nd or 3rd level if I remember correctly, I don't see any buff, only Pathfinder having a better organized wiki to help you find that stuff.
DSMatticus wrote:
The fighter, meanwhile, is only marginally improved (bigger numbers, yeah, that'll make everything better). Plus, there are a ton of new full and partial casters who also make the fighter look like a joke. And magic item crafting no longer costs experience, so wizards get more cool toys than you. PF is just 3.5 shuffled around with a bunch of new content that slots into the same old wizards rool fighters drool paradigm.
At least PF casters have to pay something for their gear.
A 3.5 caster only paid gold/exp for magic gear if they wanted, between stuff like Thougt Bottles or plain wish SLA abuse. Otherwise 3.5 casters got their gear 100% free in a single day if that.
FrankTrollman wrote:
Maglag wrote:Ok, wait a minute, anyone care to explain what the "caster edition" argument is?
DSM basically hits it out of the park. Casters aren't better than you in 3.5 because they are able to take advantage of weird bullshit power loops and employ broken combos that come online at level 15 or higher. They are better than you
because they are better than you. Because Wizards and Druids and Clerics will take actions that win encounters and Fighters won't. Because casters hit above 50% on the same game test and non-casters do not.
Again, my question is why do you claim PF is worst than 3.5 in that regard?
FrankTrollman wrote:
Maglag wrote:Because yes, I'm perfectly aware that PF gave casters a lot of new cool toys.
This is 100% of the issue. What a Caster could theoretically do or not do in a 20th level no-holds-barred game doesn't mean dick diddly because you are not playing in one of those and neither is anyone else. What matters is how good casters do in the actual encounters they have at the levels people actually play at with the tools they are allowed to use. And looked at
that way, Casters get, as you've noted, "a lot of cool new toys."
And Fighters now have to spend two feats to get Improved Trip
and it isn't as good.
-Username17
I've been in games with incantrixes and shadowcraft mages (whose cheese can and will come online much earlier than 20th level). I've seen other people claim they've been in such games, including how they owned everything with cheaters of mystra. In the recent OSSR relentlessimp keeps complaining about how the adventure writers didn't take in account the casters using magic to get magic gear for free while mass-calling outsider slaves.
You yourself wrote the tomes that are based on casters spamming wish SLA for gear starting at 7th level until gold becomes worthless trash, so yes, that kind of extreme cheese saw play in 3.5, and PF rules specifically balanced that bit out if nothing else.