D&D 5e has failed

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Valacar
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Post by Valacar »

Koumei wrote:So because it's selling well at this very moment, we can't say that it has failed. Technically we can't say it is failing because sales are doing okay and people are talking about it. But we all know it is going to fail soon enough.

So if it is going to have failed but it isn't failing now, does that mean it's in a quantum state of failure?
I just found this thread and I'm amazed at the retardness of the OP. Go back to page one and eat crow to all those who said 5e failed, it hasn't, sales are strong still, past February as some page one posters mentioned by all accounts- Amazon, local game stores, etc.

Sounds like whining by all the people in the playtest that didn't get listened too....using the generalization that the OP used by lumping those that like 5e as retards...fun stuff even if it's completely wrong.
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Post by virgil »

Sales are *not* strong on Amazon.
Image
Based on recent interviews...
Where are you selling most of your product –hobby shops, bookstores or retailers like Amazon?

The ratios remain the same for us –the hobby stores and the book channel both are tremendous for us, and they both do a big chunk of the business. Amazon, I think, has been a much bigger player this launch than before, for obvious reasons. But you’ve also seen the decline of lots of big box stores –Barnes & Noble doesn’t have as many locations as it did at the last launch, there’s not as many big book stores out there. So I think Amazon is definitely seeing a lot of that kind of mass market purchase, but the hobby store still remains the hardcore place, when your fans are going in there weekly playing games and they can get it products a little bit early. We see a pretty even split between the two channels and that’s consistent with our business for years.
Amazon is a power player in the “mass-market” venue (including chain bookstores); and much of its growth is from the vacuum created by Borders and similar chains shutting down. From the same interviews, mass-market sales are at parity w/hobby stores (comic/gaming stores, etc).

For history: when 3rd edition was released in 2000, the PHB sold 300k copies in the first 30 days (no clue whether that’s including international sales).
Last edited by virgil on Tue May 05, 2015 6:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Axebird »

Valacar wrote:
Koumei wrote:So because it's selling well at this very moment, we can't say that it has failed. Technically we can't say it is failing because sales are doing okay and people are talking about it. But we all know it is going to fail soon enough.

So if it is going to have failed but it isn't failing now, does that mean it's in a quantum state of failure?
I just found this thread and I'm amazed at the retardness of the OP. Go back to page one and eat crow to all those who said 5e failed, it hasn't, sales are strong still, past February as some page one posters mentioned by all accounts- Amazon, local game stores, etc.

Sounds like whining by all the people in the playtest that didn't get listened too....using the generalization that the OP used by lumping those that like 5e as retards...fun stuff even if it's completely wrong.
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Post by TheFlatline »

Valacar wrote:
Koumei wrote:So because it's selling well at this very moment, we can't say that it has failed. Technically we can't say it is failing because sales are doing okay and people are talking about it. But we all know it is going to fail soon enough.

So if it is going to have failed but it isn't failing now, does that mean it's in a quantum state of failure?
I just found this thread and I'm amazed at the retardness of the OP. Go back to page one and eat crow to all those who said 5e failed, it hasn't, sales are strong still, past February as some page one posters mentioned by all accounts- Amazon, local game stores, etc.

Sounds like whining by all the people in the playtest that didn't get listened too....using the generalization that the OP used by lumping those that like 5e as retards...fun stuff even if it's completely wrong.
2/10 on the Troll-o-meter.

Put some originality into it next time. You're competing with fanboys who honestly will assert that "hundreds of thousands" > "millions" and other acts of mind-bogglingly astounding fandom. If you want to get a rise you really have to step your game up at this point to distinguish yourself.
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Post by Username17 »

I'm a bit surprised at the tepidness of the 5e defenders. Back when 4e was coming in, 4vengers were out in force to tell us that everyone who didn't immediately embrace 4e was an out-of-touch neckbeard who was going to be cast aside by history and so on and so forth.Saying not-nice things about 4th edition when it came out caused 4rries to pop out of the woodwork and flip the fuck out. Hell, it got me banned from Dumpshock, a forum that was a fansite for Shadowrun.

Part of it is surely that 4th edition had much better crafted press releases to imply that it was successful and going to take over. More pre-orders than 3e, more opening week sales than 3e, a second printing before books were even on the shelves... that all sounded really good. People like me who said that 4e would not take over were on the run, and the 4rries felt they had a free hand to mock us. It wasn't for over a year that it really sank in that not only could those facts be cherry picked out of a barrel of fail, but that they actually were.

What does 5e have? It was #1 on Amazon... for a few hours... while offering forty percent discount just on Amazon. That's not nothing... but it isn't very much. Part of it is that the last edition very definitely spent a lot of time lying with statistics, so people are more incredulous when WotC makes crafted statements. But 5e's crafted statements don't even sound impressive.

The 5etards just aren't coming out swinging very hard for this one. The insults against non-adopters are tepid and half-assed. Like 5e itself.

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Post by RelentlessImp »

Valacar wrote:I just found this thread and I'm amazed at the retardness of the OP. Go back to page one and eat crow to all those who said 5e failed, it hasn't, sales are strong still, past February as some page one posters mentioned by all accounts- Amazon, local game stores, etc.

Sounds like whining by all the people in the playtest that didn't get listened too....using the generalization that the OP used by lumping those that like 5e as retards...fun stuff even if it's completely wrong.
I'm not even sure this guy is trolling. I can't actually picture anyone saying this without a healthy dose of sarcasm dripping out of every syllable. It's like a parody of a parody.
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Post by deaddmwalking »

I had to re - read the OP. Central point - 5th edition did not unite the fractured fan - base (which is true). The suggestion - that Wizards support a 3.x type game officially is what Paizo is doing and they have achieved success with that.

I know a bunch of reasons that WotC isn't particularly interested in supporting 3.x, but it is hard to believe that they wouldn't have had more success. Considering all the good will Paizo started with when WotC pulled the license for Dragon Magazine, I don't know if they could have won back the Paizils, but I'm confident it would have been better than basically all of 4th edition.
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Post by Josh_Kablack »

Valacar wrote:I just found this thread and I'm amazed at the retardness of the OP. Go back to page one and eat crow to all those who said 5e failed, it hasn't, sales are strong still, past February as some page one posters mentioned by all accounts- Amazon, local game stores, etc.

Sounds like whining by all the people in the playtest that didn't get listened too....using the generalization that the OP used by lumping those that like 5e as retards...fun stuff even if it's completely wrong.

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Post by Fucks »

FrankTrollman wrote:I'm a bit surprised at the tepidness of the 5e defenders. Back when 4e was coming in, 4vengers were out in force to tell us that everyone who didn't immediately embrace 4e was an out-of-touch neckbeard who was going to be cast aside by history and so on and so forth.Saying not-nice things about 4th edition when it came out caused 4rries to pop out of the woodwork and flip the fuck out. Hell, it got me banned from Dumpshock, a forum that was a fansite for Shadowrun.
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How so?

:confused:
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Post by erik »

As in, 5uckers are way more rare and also individually seem less vociferous than 4rries.
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Post by nockermensch »

Fucks wrote:
FrankTrollman wrote:I'm a bit surprised at the tepidness of the 5e defenders. Back when 4e was coming in, 4vengers were out in force to tell us that everyone who didn't immediately embrace 4e was an out-of-touch neckbeard who was going to be cast aside by history and so on and so forth.Saying not-nice things about 4th edition when it came out caused 4rries to pop out of the woodwork and flip the fuck out. Hell, it got me banned from Dumpshock, a forum that was a fansite for Shadowrun.
-Username17
How so?

:confused:
If there's something positive to be said about 4E is that they were bold. They were absolutely sure that their game was the hottest thing around and would blow the minds of every D&D player, and their marketing showed that. So when that train crashed, it did by hurling itself at full speed into the precipice of failure. It was hilarious to see.

5E marketing is nothing like that, being much more subdued. Right now, I don't think 5E will fail as spectacularly as 4E did. At best, this edition could manage to be another 2E: In the 90s, my group played a heavily house-ruled AD&D 2, where we glossed over a lot of the stupid because we really wanted to play stories like the ones in LotR Lodoss War Bastard!

So with all the unashamed Troy MacLuring 5E keeps doing ("Hello, we're D&D, which you may remember from such beloved classics like Baldur's Gate and Menzoberranzan"), they may even succeed at holding the 1st spot for more than one quarter.
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Post by Ferret »

virgil wrote: Based on recent interviews...
Where are you selling most of your product –hobby shops, bookstores or retailers like Amazon?

The ratios remain the same for us –the hobby stores and the book channel both are tremendous for us, and they both do a big chunk of the business. Amazon, I think, has been a much bigger player this launch than before, for obvious reasons. But you’ve also seen the decline of lots of big box stores –Barnes & Noble doesn’t have as many locations as it did at the last launch, there’s not as many big book stores out there. So I think Amazon is definitely seeing a lot of that kind of mass market purchase, but the hobby store still remains the hardcore place, when your fans are going in there weekly playing games and they can get it products a little bit early. We see a pretty even split between the two channels and that’s consistent with our business for years.
Amazon is a power player in the “mass-market” venue (including chain bookstores); and much of its growth is from the vacuum created by Borders and similar chains shutting down. From the same interviews, mass-market sales are at parity w/hobby stores (comic/gaming stores, etc).

For history: when 3rd edition was released in 2000, the PHB sold 300k copies in the first 30 days (no clue whether that’s including international sales).
For those who, like myself, didn't know the source, this quote comes from Forbes' interview with Nathan Stewart, the Brand Manager for 5th Edition:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/davidewalt/ ... h-edition/
Last edited by Ferret on Wed May 06, 2015 7:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by zugschef »

Dude is talking trash. Nobody cares about their stories. People want crunch.
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Post by RelentlessImp »

zugschef wrote:Dude is talking trash. Nobody cares about their stories. People want crunch.
That is a little disingenuous; people care about their stories. They would PREFER the crunch let them tell them with a minimum of mind caulk.
Last edited by RelentlessImp on Thu May 07, 2015 3:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by tussock »

What sells is crunch. You can argue about what people want that doesn't sell, because there's only 1 DM for every few players or whatever, but people collectively spend money for rules a great deal more than they spend it on stupidly expensive, large-text, nostalgia-based art books that are trying to tell them a story.

It's been that way forever. It's a game, people want to know the rules, so they can play it. Being able to tell stories about the emergent play after the fact is nice, but paying money for other people's stories which often aren't even that is just bullshit.
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Post by nockermensch »

RelentlessImp wrote:
zugschef wrote:Dude is talking trash. Nobody cares about their stories. People want crunch.
That is a little disingenuous; people care about their stories. They would PREFER the crunch let them tell them with a minimum of mind caulk.
People care about content. This content can be, for example, characterization. Awesome and imaginative world / monsters / character races will indeed draw people. This is same category that benefits from professional artists.

This explains for example, the runaway success of Spell-Jammer and Planescape, despite the actual rules for them being shit. But you still need to deliver some content for this magic to work. 2E did that by releasing a metric lot of books, that people could search for gems and two monthly magazines, that mainly sold extra content. 5E is not doing this. Dragon+ Magazine could be called Press Release: The Magazine, because this is all it is. Zero usable content on that [t|c]rap.
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Mord wrote:Chromatic Wolves are massively under-CRed. Its "Dood to stone" spell-like is a TPK waiting to happen if you run into it before anyone in the party has Dance of Sack or Shield of Farts.
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Post by Fucks »

nockermensch wrote:
Fucks wrote:
FrankTrollman wrote:I'm a bit surprised at the tepidness of the 5e defenders. Back when 4e was coming in, 4vengers were out in force to tell us that everyone who didn't immediately embrace 4e was an out-of-touch neckbeard who was going to be cast aside by history and so on and so forth.Saying not-nice things about 4th edition when it came out caused 4rries to pop out of the woodwork and flip the fuck out. Hell, it got me banned from Dumpshock, a forum that was a fansite for Shadowrun.
-Username17
How so?

:confused:
If there's something positive to be said about 4E is that they were bold. They were absolutely sure that their game was the hottest thing around and would blow the minds of every D&D player, and their marketing showed that. So when that train crashed, it did by hurling itself at full speed into the precipice of failure. It was hilarious to see.

5E marketing is nothing like that, being much more subdued. Right now, I don't think 5E will fail as spectacularly as 4E did. At best, this edition could manage to be another 2E: In the 90s, my group played a heavily house-ruled AD&D 2, where we glossed over a lot of the stupid because we really wanted to play stories like the ones in LotR Lodoss War Bastard!

So with all the unashamed Troy MacLuring 5E keeps doing ("Hello, we're D&D, which you may remember from such beloved classics like Baldur's Gate and Menzoberranzan"), they may even succeed at holding the 1st spot for more than one quarter.
What the fuck are you talking about? I asked Frank how his banning from a Sr forum has been related with his bashing/ criticsim of D&D4.
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Post by deaddmwalking »

Fucks wrote:
nockermensch wrote:
Fucks wrote:
How so?

:confused:
If there's something positive to be said about 4E is that they were bold.
What the fuck are you talking about? I asked Frank how his banning from a Sr forum has been related with his bashing/ criticsim of D&D4.
Usually the first sentence in a paragraph is called the 'topic sentence'. When you said 'how so', it looked to nockermensch (and me, and probably everyone else) that your question was on how tepid the 5e fans were, not about how Frank got banned.

But now that you know, you can clarify your question and maybe get an answer.

If you ask about the last sentence but quote the entire paragraph, you'll probably have this problem more often than not.
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Post by zugschef »

deaddmwalking wrote:(and me, and probably everyone else)
No, it didn't.
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Post by Dean »

Agree with ddm
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Post by deaddmwalking »

zugschef wrote:
deaddmwalking wrote:(and me, and probably everyone else)
No, it didn't.
Good thing I qualified that statement.
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Post by Username17 »

Fucks wrote:What the fuck are you talking about? I asked Frank how his banning from a Sr forum has been related with his bashing/ criticsim of D&D4.
You need to be a lot more verbose. Literally no one, including me, thought that was the point you wanted clarification on, because you quoted a much longer passage and wrote "how so?" like that meant something, which it doesn't.

But in answer to the question you apparently meant to ask... the thing to remember is that Bull is a shit stain who is always wrong about absolutely everything. Everything. So despite the fact that Bull was a quite proud supporter of the "D20 Gives You Cancer" catchphrase back when 3rd edition D&D was big and popular and good and strong, but as soon as 4th edition D&D (the edition that sucked and everyone hated), he jumped onboard.

I was, of course, quite critical of 4th edition D&D. Because it sucked, and I could see that it sucked right away. And in the off-topic board on that forum, I started making my case. Bull took the other side, and when it became clear that he wasn't getting the best of it, he pulled a new rule out of his ass that people could only say negative things about 4th edition D&D in a special thread that allowed that, while people could say positive or neutral things about it wherever they wanted (including the thread that allowed negative comments).

So on the "no negative comments allowed" thread, Bull started gushing about his plans to make a Rogue with multiclass feats to take Wizard powers. I told him that since the Rogue required Dex and either Cha or Str to function and all Wizard powers required Int to function, and you only get to maximize two stats, that it would be more effective to pick a different combination. This simple fact got Bull so angry that he issued a temporary ban on me from logging in to Dumpshock. Because of the incredibly stupid way Dumpshock's forum code works (banned posters can't log in, and you can't check your messages without logging in), I didn't even find out what the fuck that was about for a few weeks.

Now this is interesting for a couple of reasons. I mean, most obviously it's that Bull is a spoiled man child who throws temper tantrums at the mildest of provocations and shits all over the rules of his own forum just to bully people who don't agree with him about trivial bullshit. But it's also interesting in that the chargen rules in 4e are so restrictive and stupid that even telling people what they are feels like a prank.

But the reason I brought it up is because it was an example of the simple vehemence of the 4rries. It's really hard to imagine people swinging banhammers around to defend the honor of 5th edition. The drive by trolls we get from the 5e crowd keep driving. We haven't had one solitary Darwinism or Piniped come in here and pugilate for even a couple of posts. All we get is dipshits like Neon-Sequitor come in here and drop a single sarcastic post and then defend it in no way whatsoever after people tear it apart. But 4e was like that all the time and everywhere. Even on explicitly non-D&D forums the 4rries would come out swinging against the non-believers.

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Post by virgil »

FrankTrollman wrote:The drive by trolls we get from the 5e crowd keep driving. We haven't had one solitary Darwinism or Piniped come in here and pugilate for even a couple of posts.
Maybe the Den has earned enough of a reputation that the 5E trolls don't think it's worth wasting their time?
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Post by Fucks »

deaddmwalking wrote: If you ask about the last sentence but quote the entire paragraph, you'll probably have this problem more often than not.
I'll be more careful in the future. Promise.
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Post by Windjammer »

I have nothing but scorn for this iteration of the game - it is literally the only edition I'll never own a single element of - but I think its fate is slowly turning. Yesterday WotC announced that Dragon magazine is coming back - apparently in a format that newspapers have for e-readers, so it's not going to be PDF (only) - and I think it was also this week that WotC announced they've hired Sean K Reynolds back (no joke, check Enworld if you must).

Now, I don't think either one of these developments - esp. not the second - bodes well for the edition from a design point of view, but it is my distinct impression that 5e was rolled out with a massively reduced (in size) team of B-rate designers, and a hugely cut back overall budget. Now WotC are expanding again - magazine and added hires - which seems to indicate to me that the initial sales were strong enough to at least warrant a modest increase in budget allocation.

I could be wrong, and it could be that 5e still is the commercial disaster it looked like on release. On the other hand, it could simply be that this edition's momentum is actually on the rise.* Only time can tell. I'm bummed either way. I thought it was already dead, and WotC could invest in some serious design work. Don't think it's happening.

Thoughts?

*Third indicator, but this one I discount (I think this was what was minimally announced for 2015): WotC announced their third adventure volume - again outsourced - also this week, it's going to happen with Green Ronin. (After Kobold Press and whatever did no.2, they are now recycling their old 3PP partners one at a time - to avoid the OGL, basically, they have to work with 3PP serially on 'one off' projects.) I've never put much stock in Green Ronin, so that's not exciting.
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