Shadowrun 4e newbie questions

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Longes
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Post by Longes »

Stahlseele wrote:Blood in the Board-Room.
Super Tuesday.
Mob War!
Divided Assets.
DreamChipper.

So, yes, there are some set in the more or less mundane world of finances and crime syndicates and politics . . granted, telling them apart may be a bit hard.
But Tech and Magic are basically what sets shadowrun apart from the rest more or less . .
So it kinda sorta makes sense to me to have more plot lines to do with that.
Super Tuesday seems to be all about magic and dragons.
Super Tuesday is a collection of five Shadowrun adventures set during the chaotic United Canadian and American States Election of 2057. From breaking into Bug City, to stopping a psycho toxic shaman on a death mission, to tangling with a secret society on a quest for a magical talisman, the player characters find out what it means when politicians enter the shadows. Super Tuesday is intended for gamemasters and players of all experience levels.
The others seem fine to me. It's not that things are about Tech or Magic, it's just that in Shadowrunn all big things seem to involve aliens. Bug Spirits, AIs, Dragons, Immortal Elves, Free Spirits. For a cyberpunk setting surprisinly few world problems come from metahumanity - it's always "Aliens invade". I can't even count AIs as part of metahumanity, because no one knows how to make them. They are not a product of technology - they are magic.
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Post by Stahlseele »

OK, i had honestly not expected something like that in an adventure about politics . .
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TFwiki wrote:Soon is the name of the region in the time-domain (familiar to all marketing departments, and to the moderators and staff of Fun Publications) which sees release of all BotCon news, club exclusives, and other fan desirables. Soon is when then will become now.

Peculiar properties of spacetime ensure that the perception of the magnitude of Soon is fluid and dependent, not on an individual's time-reference, but on spatial and cultural location. A marketer generally perceives Soon as a finite, known, yet unspeakable time-interval; to a fan, the interval appears greater, and may in fact approach the infinite, becoming Never. Once the interval has passed, however, a certain time-lensing effect seems to occur, and the time-interval becomes vanishingly small. We therefore see the strange result that the same fragment of spacetime may be observed, in quick succession, as Soon, Never, and All Too Quickly.
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Post by Nath »

Longes wrote:Almost all big Shadowrun plotlines were about Magic, or, occasionally, magical matrix entities (AIs, Resonance). What's up with that? Even in Shadowrun mundanes are worthless?
Because writers often get lazy.

Mystery is an easy way to make a story compelling. Especially in a TTRPG, where other methods like character development or the threat of failure are entirely up to what each gaming groups will do. And so is the legwork that may reveal mundane mystery such as who the employer or the target actually is. The "yet-unknown threat" thus came in hand repeatedly as a core plot element

(Note that exotic locations or exotic encounters are another way to make compelling story, which was also sometimes used, though maybe not as often as one would expect.)
Last edited by Nath on Tue May 12, 2015 10:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by virgil »

Because illusion magic grants observers a resistance test, one can presume that spy satellites can't be fooled by Trid-Phantasm. Would the same apply to a spirit's Concealment power?
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Post by Silent Wayfarer »

FrankTrollman wrote:
Silent Wayfarer wrote:Oh lord, can you imagine them casting Movement on themselves to fly at Mach 5 and destroy everything via hypersonic bow shock?
Not only can that be imagined, but it comes pre-nerfed. Movement works by spatial distortion rather than energy increase. A movemented bullet will go farther but it won't hit any harder. Been that way since first edition.

The authors were ahead of you. In 1989.

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Post by Silent Wayfarer »

virgil wrote:Because illusion magic grants observers a resistance test, one can presume that spy satellites can't be fooled by Trid-Phantasm. Would the same apply to a spirit's Concealment power?
Wouldn't inanimate objects just get an object resistance threshold instead? So you'd need 4-6+ successes to beat high tech or milspec cameras but it woukd be doable.
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Post by virgil »

Silent Wayfarer wrote:
virgil wrote:Because illusion magic grants observers a resistance test, one can presume that spy satellites can't be fooled by Trid-Phantasm. Would the same apply to a spirit's Concealment power?
Wouldn't inanimate objects just get an object resistance threshold instead? So you'd need 4-6+ successes to beat high tech or milspec cameras but it woukd be doable.
Technically yes, but beating it means your magic is overcoming it, and your magic isn't overcoming a damn thing if the target is in a mana void (like a satellite).
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Post by Silent Wayfarer »

IIRC Mana Voids only reduce your effective Magic when you are in them, they're not some antimagic zone. So a Force 10 spell is still a Force 10 spell if you could somehow cast one there. Illusions should be fully effective against satellites since the caster is not in spess when it's being cast. Whether it can deceive a satellite is independent of whether the sat is in a mana void because you're not casting it directly on the satellite.
Last edited by Silent Wayfarer on Wed May 13, 2015 3:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Stahlseele »

As far as i remember, spellpower is lessened by the void power.
So if you have a spellpower of less than 11, it simply fizzles outright, if you try to cast it in/into a force 10 void.

You get Drain as if the spellforce was higher if you cast it from inside the void and the drain is magnified by
a) needing the spell to be strong enough to NOT simply fizzle in the void(so at least 11 if you are in a 10 void)
and
b)by the force of the void (so another 10 on top of that if you are inside a 10 void)

Yes, this means you face drain as if you had cast a force 21 spell just for the effects of a force 1 spell. Have fun with that.

And i think the void/bgc also directly substracts from your actual magic attribute, so you are into overcasting territory no matter what, if you even have a bit of positive left . .

Voids and all other not aspected to you forms of background count ARE pretty much no magic zones. More so if talking about space, where it's a 12 void.
If you are not a great dragon, you are not going to hex anything in there.
Last edited by Stahlseele on Wed May 13, 2015 8:42 am, edited 3 times in total.
Welcome, to IronHell.
Shrapnel wrote:
TFwiki wrote:Soon is the name of the region in the time-domain (familiar to all marketing departments, and to the moderators and staff of Fun Publications) which sees release of all BotCon news, club exclusives, and other fan desirables. Soon is when then will become now.

Peculiar properties of spacetime ensure that the perception of the magnitude of Soon is fluid and dependent, not on an individual's time-reference, but on spatial and cultural location. A marketer generally perceives Soon as a finite, known, yet unspeakable time-interval; to a fan, the interval appears greater, and may in fact approach the infinite, becoming Never. Once the interval has passed, however, a certain time-lensing effect seems to occur, and the time-interval becomes vanishingly small. We therefore see the strange result that the same fragment of spacetime may be observed, in quick succession, as Soon, Never, and All Too Quickly.
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Post by Silent Wayfarer »

But you're not casting the spell in a mana void, or into the mana void, you are on Earth, so BGC is normal and you don't need to overcast or anything. Trid Phantasm creates an illusion on Earth, which a spysat can observe from orbit. So assuming I get 6+ hits on my test, I should be able to fool that spysat, since the illusion is Force 6+ and the spysat's OR threshold is 6.
Last edited by Silent Wayfarer on Wed May 13, 2015 9:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by virgil »

If illusions aren't inhibited on observers in mana voids, then why does counter spelling work?
Last edited by virgil on Wed May 13, 2015 12:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Stahlseele »

Hmm, but he has a point . .
IS indirect stuff like that affected at all by BGC/Void?
Welcome, to IronHell.
Shrapnel wrote:
TFwiki wrote:Soon is the name of the region in the time-domain (familiar to all marketing departments, and to the moderators and staff of Fun Publications) which sees release of all BotCon news, club exclusives, and other fan desirables. Soon is when then will become now.

Peculiar properties of spacetime ensure that the perception of the magnitude of Soon is fluid and dependent, not on an individual's time-reference, but on spatial and cultural location. A marketer generally perceives Soon as a finite, known, yet unspeakable time-interval; to a fan, the interval appears greater, and may in fact approach the infinite, becoming Never. Once the interval has passed, however, a certain time-lensing effect seems to occur, and the time-interval becomes vanishingly small. We therefore see the strange result that the same fragment of spacetime may be observed, in quick succession, as Soon, Never, and All Too Quickly.
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Post by Silent Wayfarer »

virgil wrote:If illusions aren't inhibited on observers in mana voids, then why does counter spelling work?
Does it? Does counterspelling automatically let you dispel an illusion spell effect that never comes anywhere close to you? I can see it resisting a Fireball has you in its blast radius, or a Control Thoughts targeting you (passively, even), and some mana illusions target a person's senses directly.

But the relevant text for physical illusions reads:
Physical illusions are
effective against technological systems, assuming the caster achieves
enough hits to meet the Object Resistance threshold (p. 183). They
are resisted by Intuition + Counterspelling (if any); non-living devices
do not get a resistance test. The spellcaster must generate more hits
than the observer for the illusion to be considered real. If the spell is
not completely resisted, the character is fully affected by the illusion.
I don't even know why you'd allow counterspelling to affect your roll to disbelieve, that sounds like making your entire visual field part of you for magical/counterspelling purposes. But them's the rules and I'm not arguing them.

But for inanimate objects, the only thing that determines whether a satellite is affected by the illusion is the hits the caster gets, which is likely to be pretty good considering he is not physically in the mana void of space when he's casting the spell.

And the relevant text for mana voids and casting is:
Voids have background count ratings ranging from –7 to
–12. The first effect of a void is that it renders most magicians
unable to use magic, due to the absence of available mana; re-
duce the character’s Magic by the background count rating, as
described under Background Count and Magic, p. 118.
If a character exposes himself to the astral plane (either
by astrally perceiving or projecting) while in a void, he risks
having his astral form torn apart as it dissipates into the surrounding
emptiness—as would air in a vacuum. Each Combat
Turn the character is astrally active, he suffers Physical damage
with a Damage Value equal to the absolute value of the
void’s rating (so a –8 Rating void deals a DV of 8). Dual-natured
or astrally-perceiving characters resist this damage with
their Body attribute, while pure astral forms (such as projecting
characters) resist with their Willpower attribute. If the
character has any form of astral armor (such as the Mystic
Armor critter power), it applies to this test. Characters experiencing
this damage often suffer disorientation and terrible
hallucinations, and the gamemaster may chose to apply
Negative mental qualities to any character who has suffered
astral exposure to a void.
At no point does it mention anything about the spells themselves being affected by the mana void, just that the voids themselves make it nearly impossible to cast spells of any potency, since they apply the double whammy of -BGC to Magic and then +BGC to DV. So, if you could target a satellite from earth*, you should be able to cast a spell on it as per normal. If you are standing in space and have a Magic rating of like, 28 and enough drain dice (lel centering) to tank around 20 DV of Drain, you should be able to cast a powerful enough spell to affect a a satellite. But by itself, just passing through a void doesn't seem to have an effect on the spell.

*Note that this is pretty much impossible since AFAIK, there's no way to get a magician's senses capable of perceiving and observing a satellite that is several hundred or thousand km straight up, even if you use cyberware.
Last edited by Silent Wayfarer on Wed May 13, 2015 5:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Stahlseele »

You can watch the MOON using only your eyes. And even see Mars and Venus.
You can see the ISS streaking by at a clear night using a telescope.
There is no reason to not be able to do this.
The only HARD part about it would be to know when to look where, if it is not a geo stationary orbit that it stationary relative to your position . .
If the Sattelite is stationary relative to your position, you just need to find it and look at it through a strong enough OPTICAL telescope of some sort.
Last edited by Stahlseele on Wed May 13, 2015 5:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Welcome, to IronHell.
Shrapnel wrote:
TFwiki wrote:Soon is the name of the region in the time-domain (familiar to all marketing departments, and to the moderators and staff of Fun Publications) which sees release of all BotCon news, club exclusives, and other fan desirables. Soon is when then will become now.

Peculiar properties of spacetime ensure that the perception of the magnitude of Soon is fluid and dependent, not on an individual's time-reference, but on spatial and cultural location. A marketer generally perceives Soon as a finite, known, yet unspeakable time-interval; to a fan, the interval appears greater, and may in fact approach the infinite, becoming Never. Once the interval has passed, however, a certain time-lensing effect seems to occur, and the time-interval becomes vanishingly small. We therefore see the strange result that the same fragment of spacetime may be observed, in quick succession, as Soon, Never, and All Too Quickly.
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Post by virgil »

Silent Wayfarer wrote:But for inanimate objects, the only thing that determines whether a satellite is affected by the illusion is the hits the caster gets, which is likely to be pretty good considering he is not physically in the mana void of space when he's casting the spell.
The reason why processed items are more difficult to affect with magic is because their astral presence is weaker. Mana voids are by definition weaker astral presences.
At no point does it mention anything about the spells themselves being affected by the mana void
That's because the relevant information is in the rules for Background Counts.
Street Magic, p118 wrote:Pre-existing wards, mana barriers, active foci, sustained spells, and quickened/anchored spells are similarly affected. Reduce their Force by the absolute value of the background count. If the Force is reduced to zero or less, wards and mana barriers will collapse, foci will deactivate, and spells will fizzle.
Now, that doesn't explain what happens if you pull out your optical telescope to look at an astronaut and cast Stunbolt; but it feels like a failure of research on my part rather than the rules failing to cover this scenario.
Last edited by virgil on Wed May 13, 2015 6:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Username17 »

Physical Illusions are pretty weird. They don't actually target you in any way. They create visible constructs or make things invisible or whatever. And then you attempt to see through them. The fact that counterspelling works on physical illusions is a bit weird, because the illusions don't go to mess you up, you go to mess the illusion up with your mind.

Mana illusions actually do things to the observer, so logically hiding in a mana void should offer protection. But physical illusions don't do anything to the observer, so a mana void around the observer shouldn't do shit.

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Post by Silent Wayfarer »

FrankTrollman wrote:Physical Illusions are pretty weird. They don't actually target you in any way. They create visible constructs or make things invisible or whatever. And then you attempt to see through them. The fact that counterspelling works on physical illusions is a bit weird, because the illusions don't go to mess you up, you go to mess the illusion up with your mind.

Mana illusions actually do things to the observer, so logically hiding in a mana void should offer protection. But physical illusions don't do anything to the observer, so a mana void around the observer shouldn't do shit.

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There are some freestanding mana illusions like the M version of Trid Phantasm, but things like Orgasm/Orgy or Confusion do specifically target people and go out to mess with them. So maybe the Counterspelling lingo was meant for those?
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Post by Username17 »

Silent Wayfarer wrote:
FrankTrollman wrote:Physical Illusions are pretty weird. They don't actually target you in any way. They create visible constructs or make things invisible or whatever. And then you attempt to see through them. The fact that counterspelling works on physical illusions is a bit weird, because the illusions don't go to mess you up, you go to mess the illusion up with your mind.

Mana illusions actually do things to the observer, so logically hiding in a mana void should offer protection. But physical illusions don't do anything to the observer, so a mana void around the observer shouldn't do shit.

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There are some freestanding mana illusions like the M version of Trid Phantasm, but things like Orgasm/Orgy or Confusion do specifically target people and go out to mess with them. So maybe the Counterspelling lingo was meant for those?
Even freestanding mana illusions actually fuck with the minds of onlookers. Mana illusions are really fucking weird. Mana invisibility doesn't make the target invisible, it makes everyone who sees the target edit out that information in their mind. Mana Invisibility is Vampire the Masquerade Obfuscation.

The question of whether you should be able to protect yourself from a Mana Illusion by standing in a Mana Void is a pretty good one. But it doesn't specifically matter for the spysat example, because the spysat is an inanimate object and already immune to Mana Illusions.

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Post by virgil »

FrankTrollman wrote:Physical Illusions are pretty weird. They don't actually target you in any way. They create visible constructs or make things invisible or whatever. And then you attempt to see through them. The fact that counterspelling works on physical illusions is a bit weird, because the illusions don't go to mess you up, you go to mess the illusion up with your mind.
It's the fact that counterspelling and object resistance, both essentially astral properties, that help the observer see through illusions that makes me confused though. That gives the impression of the physical illusion mildly targetting everything in its light cone, sort of like a *very* wide area fireball; only instead of fire, it's sensory information.

EDIT: When a mage casts Mob Mind on someone, which takes a Complex action, it normally takes a Simple Action to give a command. Are the victims able to act freely until it's the mage's next Initiative Pass to give them an order contradicting their regular behavior; or are victims instantly brainless zombies until a command is given?

PS: Can Endowment grant a subject the Skill power that Task Spirits have?
Last edited by virgil on Fri May 29, 2015 8:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Username17 »

People are totally free to think and do whatever they want until the caster of Mob Mind can take another simple action. The spell fucking ends combat, but since it's a two initiative pass combo that costs a shit tonne of drain, people don't use it much.

Skill is not a spirit power. You get the skill instead of a power. So it can't be endowed to people.

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Post by Ancient History »

Yeah, what do you think this is, Shadowrun 2nd edition?
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Post by Silent Wayfarer »

A few questions:

1) Can Killing Strike make Elemental Strike's Sound damage Physical, so I can blow people up with a cheesy WATAAAAAAH sound effect?

3) Does Sound Element work with Smashing Blow so I could theoretically do a 2x DV no Armor attack on a wall and bust through it in one punch?

3) Frank mentioned the killing of some Super Shedim-possessed cleric as the top tier of murder in SR; but he mentioned that it was only because Juan Juan Azcapotzalco was dead. I know he's the boss of Aztech but why is he such a fighting badass?
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Post by Longes »

Silent Wayfarer wrote:3) Does Sound Element work with Smashing Blow so I could theoretically do a 2x DV no Armor attack on a wall and bust through it in one punch?
No, objects don't take Stun damage.
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Post by Silent Wayfarer »

Longes wrote:
Silent Wayfarer wrote:3) Does Sound Element work with Smashing Blow so I could theoretically do a 2x DV no Armor attack on a wall and bust through it in one punch?
No, objects don't take Stun damage.
Then what if I used Hardliner gloves to make it P damage? Or Killing Hands? Or took a -4d penalty to do P damage with an S weapon? Can any of these make Sound element able to break a wall down?
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Post by Longes »

Silent Wayfarer wrote:
Longes wrote:
Silent Wayfarer wrote:3) Does Sound Element work with Smashing Blow so I could theoretically do a 2x DV no Armor attack on a wall and bust through it in one punch?
No, objects don't take Stun damage.
Then what if I used Hardliner gloves to make it P damage? Or Killing Hands? Or took a -4d penalty to do P damage with an S weapon? Can any of these make Sound element able to break a wall down?
Personal opinion - no. First you take your hand damage, then apply Killing Hands, then apply Elemental Fist, which overrides everything else. But you can use any of the good P elements, like Light, to do damage against only half of wall's armor.
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