Finding a place for Fighters

[RandomCasualty]

1091127147[/unixtime]]Hero stories that I like always have the fighters pulling some crazy crap against bigger and harder to damage foes. Rather than trading blows unitl one guy drops, they trade blows until one guy pulls some crazy crap.

After watching Conan the Destroyer this weekend, I totally realized just how skilled the classis bronzed barbarian was; Vs the boss monster, he fought with his sword and stuff and got his butt kicked, but it wasn't until he grappled the monster that he won the day.

This is a problem pretty much from D&D being a noncinematic battle system. Tried and true methods are going to win the day, as opposed to cool improvised ones. It really doesn't have a hell of a lot to do with the problem with fighters, but rather with the combat system in general. To support cinematicness you basically have to get rid of feats and most forms of specialization.

Maybe its just Hollywood, but I think that monsters have big bonuses(to make them simple to run) and fighters have good tricks like maneuvers and stuff to cancel out the numerically superior foe.

Yeah, generally that's the way things should go, however you're still going to lose agaisnt stuff like the collossal scorpion, because its bonuses are simply too large to beat with trick feats. Basically against a creature like that you've got to just get out of melee altogether and fight it another way.

Take a feat like Elusive Target(Foe? I dunno. the CW feat). It cancels Power Attack. PA is a huge feat and the main power of high strength monsters like giants.

The strength of giants is that they can always hit you. Their damage is already huge, so they don't need power attack that much. What you really want to negate is their strength bonus to attack rolls, not their bonuses to damage.

Monsters need to be simple stat blocks. Make fighters the crazy tricks guys who out-tactics bruisers, along with the wizards who outspell monsters who have fixed spell lists with unlimited castings and rogues who try to outsneak monsters with cammo skin or natural invis.

Bruisers must beat fighters, because everything else can generally beat a bruiser. A wizard easily beats them wtih tactical spell use (since they can't adapt) and a rogue can generally just sneak past them, or do use magic device to do some of the same things the wizard does. This leaves the fighter wtih the class that must take a loss here.

[Username17]

In general, you're not going to win any support for a RPS model in which Rock beats Rock, Scissors beat Scissors, and Paper beats Paper.

As a game system, that's simply impractical, especially since many of the monsters are simply carbon copies of your character.

----

However, this doesn't mean that a Fighter can't be made to beat the Monstrous Spider. I actually think it would be preferable if the Giant Spiders of the world were beaten by the party warrior after it already gave a good smacking to the party Rogue. I think there might even be some literaturical precedent for that sort of thing.

But the Fighter can't be the guy who beats a monster which is basically "A Fighter". There's really no way around the party fighter going about 50/50 with that sort of thing. And if one of the characters is only going 50/50 on a monster, and everyone else is doing worse than that - the monster you are up against is in fact higher CR than you by definition.

---

Essentially K, your proposal seems to be "I want the players to be fighting monsters which are about 2 CR higher than their level" - which is fine, but irrelevent.

---

RC, remember that we can think outside the box here, just because you can't beat a Monstrous Spider or Scorpion by having a "High AC for your Level" or anything stupid like that, doesn't mean that you can't end up beating them as a Warrior. Warriors can be granted any special abilities we want them to have, such that they fill the correct design motivations.

Heck, you could build in to the Ride Skill an ability that lets you jump on top of monsters 2 sizes larger than yourself and stab them repeatedly in the back while they can't do anything about it. You'll still have to fight a Fire Giant on even terms, but the Monstrous Scorpion is going down - in melee. Just because the game doesn't work some particular way, does not mean that it can't.

That's what this thread is here for, after all.

---

Sma, as you've noticed, monsters fit into many more categories than simply "Warrior, Spellcaster, Rogue". There's:

Brutes - different from Warriors, in that they have attacks and numerical bonuses larger than warriors can. And nothing else. These are the Giant Spiders of the world, and they automatically win a pissing contest and automatically lose tic tac toe.

Magic Warriors - not really spellcasters, usually because they only have a trick or two, and no sleaves. These guys punch pretty hard, and have a secondary arsenal of (usually) spell-like abilities instead of having Warrior skills and/or equipment.

Puzzle Monsters - like the Golem, the Spectre, or the Black Pudding. These creatures are invulnerable to large varieties of attack forms, and require specialized techniques to combat. In reference to their limitations, they usually kind of suck, but their limited vulnerabilities make them walk all over many player characters (and completely unplayable as player characters).

Traps - Whether it's the CR 10 vorpal guillotine or the Assassin Vine, these challenges may or may not even be creatures. They can be quite deadly, but usually must rely upon the player characters to fail a search check or be in a hurry before they can even trigger.

And then, of course there's monsters which actually are Warriors (Giants), Spellcasters (Mind Flayers), or Rogues (Dark Ones).

So while there's basically three kinds of basic PC, there's seven basic types of challenges. So the RPS system is not going to be super pretty whatever you do.

-Username17

[RandomCasualty]

1091131062[/unixtime]]
RC, remember that we can think outside the box here, just because you can't beat a Monstrous Spider or Scorpion by having a "High AC for your Level" or anything stupid like that, doesn't mean that you can't end up beating them as a Warrior. Warriors can be granted any special abilities we want them to have, such that they fill the correct design motivations.

Right, but the problem here is that under that system basically everything would beat the monstrous spider, and that means we basically have to take its CR down until it can beat something. For every monster also should generally have a chart of some kind that lists out various PC archetypes for it to beat of the same level. A monster that can't beat anybody of its CR has to be lowered in CR, otherwise it's just an outright pushover.

Now being that the monstrous spider has the non-intelligent and non-flying traits and has insignificant spot/listen scores, this automatically puts the casters and rogue in a dominating position over it. Since we know they can beat the spider, then someone else has to lose to it, and we are only left with the fighter. If everyone can beat the spider, then the spider shouldn't be CR 10 anymore.

It's the same basic premise with creatures like the golem, which is spell resistant and crit immune. This leaves the rogue and wizard at a serious disadvantage, making the fighter the obvious guy to defeat one.

Now creatures that are copies of PC characters are more likely to be draws or near draws with every PC class, but specialist creatures like golems or monstrous spiders, should come close to the RPS balance model because they are so specialized in one direction. The less adaptable you are, the greater chance you're going to either win big or lose big.

[User3]

I'd actually prefer a system where all the characters have a 50/50 chance, and the specialist in that area has the potential for a better chance.

Say, a party vs a archwizard:
If a rogue can hide and Use Disable D. to drop effects and wait for a moment to spatter magic brains on the wall with a sneak attack with a club, then OK.

The warrior should be able to killed summoned monsters and just soak magic damage and bisect the lightly armored wiz with his greatsword.

The mage should be able to cast Dispel Magic to drop effects, as well as out-tactic the tactical spells (like my Wall of Force traps your fire elemental, your Fireball melted my Wall of Ice, my counterspell counters your spell but I have a quickened MM as well).

Some fighter tactics should school the others, and the others should have tactics to beat the fighter. Otherwise, people are going to be like "I'm Paper class. I'm totally not going to fight that Scissors monster 'cuz I'd waste all my resouces even if I'm not killed. Find me a nice Rock monster and I'm good to go."

[Username17]

"I'm Paper class. I'm totally not going to fight that Scissors monster 'cuz I'd waste all my resouces even if I'm not killed. Find me a nice Rock monster and I'm good to go."

That's pretty much a given when you have stuff like Golems, yes.

For the RPS model to hold, among 7 different types of monsters, you'd want each type of monster to beat one kind of character, lose to another, and draw with the rest.

So in that case, there's 7 victories, 7 draws, and 7 losses to hand out to the character groups. And since you want each character to win as often as they lose, you're going to have a situation where one of the classes is significantly more binary than the others.

That is, one character is going to win 3, lose 3, and draw only once (against the type of monster which is itself, basically), and the other two are going to win 2, lose 2, and draw three times.

So one of the classes is going to end up being something of a coin flip - and that's probably going to be the Wizard. The other classes are going to find themselves being about even more often then they find themselves outclassed.

Now being that the monstrous spider has the non-intelligent and non-flying traits and has insignificant spot/listen scores, this automatically puts the casters and rogue in a dominating position over it.

This statement actually puzzles me a bit. How exactly is a Rogue supposed to overcome a Giant Spider, save perhaps by running away? It's not like it can be taken down by a sneak attack, or even a death attack (which an assassin in one game I ran reffered to as her "diplomacy DC").

-Username17

[User3]

My take. Basically, I think fighters should be able to bash on things that are either not as combat oriented, or as strong/stronger but theoretically not as able to use tactics (likebeasts and stuff).

Things that are strong, but either smart or w/ immunities, should be draws.

Things that are unusual, with quirky stuff or useful magic, should be losses.

I think I choose what I wanted to . . .

W. L. D.
[ ] [ ] [x] Dragon
[ ] [ ] [x] Collossal Animated Object
[ ] [ ] [x] Bebilith
[ ] [x] [ ] Couatl
[ ] [x] [ ] Formian Mymarch
[ ] [ ] [x] Fire Giant
[ ] [x] [ ] Clay Golem
[ ] [ ] [x] Hydra
[ ] [ ] [x] Gargantuan Spider
[x] [ ] [ ] Guardian Naga
[x] [ ] [ ] Rakshasa
[ ] [x] [ ] Salamander Noble
[ ] [x] [ ] Gray Slaad
[ ] [ ] [ ] Avolakia
[ ] [x] [ ] Brass Golem
[ ] [x] [ ] Bronze Serpent
[x] [ ] [ ] Dire Elephant
[ ] [ ] [ ] Greenvise
[ ] [ ] [ ] Leech Walker
[x] [ ] [ ] Legendary Shark
[x] [ ] [ ] Legendary Tiger
[ ] [ ] [ ] Marraenoloth
[ ] [x] [ ] Mooncalf
[x] [ ] [ ] Razor Boar
[ ] [x] [ ] Runic Guardian
[ ] [x] [ ] Spell Weaver
[ ] [x] [ ] Yagnoloth.
[ ] [ ] [x] Abyssal Ghoul
[ ] [x] [ ] Darkweaver
[x] [ ] [ ] Kelpie
[ ] [x] [ ] Maelephant
[ ] [x] [ ] Shedu
[ ] [ ] [x] Sporebat
[ ] [x] [ ] Scarab Swarm
[ ] [ ] [ ] Rager Varragoin
[ ] [ ] [x] 10th level Warrior
[ ] [x] [ ] 10th level Spellcaster
[x] [ ] [ ] 10th level Rogue

[User3]

RPS seems to me to be bad model. Rather than have one star per combat, an ensemble cast approach means that everyone has fun during a combat rather than have two thirds of a miserable party. I feel like a cheater when I "win" and encounter alone, and I'm sure the party thinks the same.

The last time I fought an Animated Object I was a rogue. While I couldn't get past its DR, my party and I kept the monster prone with Trip attacks and blinded while the Barb Power Attacked past the monster's DR. We were useful during the combat and we all felt like stars.

[RandomCasualty]

1091134991[/unixtime]]I'd actually prefer a system where all the characters have a 50/50 chance, and the specialist in that area has the potential for a better chance.

The problem is that 50/50 just isnt' possible with a lot of monsters. A wizard is always going to have an advantage over a non-intelligent bruiser with only melee attacks. And there's nothing you can do about it, beacuse it isn't a matter of probabilities and number crunching, its a pure immunity. Flying or invisbiility can make him literally unstoppable against such a creature and short of really redefining what wizards can do, we can't do a hell of a lot aboiut that.

This statement actually puzzles me a bit. How exactly is a Rogue supposed to overcome a Giant Spider, save perhaps by running away? It's not like it can be taken down by a sneak attack, or even a death attack (which an assassin in one game I ran reffered to as her "diplomacy DC").

Well the obvious is sniping from behind a rock. A non intelligent creature is going to have some difficulty figuring out what's going on. Or even just a wand of improved invisibility (something every rogue should carry around) and sneak attack. If it's vulnerable to sneak attack, and can't adapt to battlefield conditions, then a rogue is going to have a clear advantage. Granted not as much as a wizard, but he's certainly not disadvantaged. Also, he does have the option of simply sneaking past it too. Giant spiders are typically obstacle enemies and not objective enemies, so you rarely even have to kill them.

[Username17]

1091144992[/unixtime]]RPS seems to me to be bad model. Rather than have one star per combat, an ensemble cast approach means that everyone has fun during a combat rather than have two thirds of a miserable party. I feel like a cheater when I "win" and encounter alone, and I'm sure the party thinks the same.

The last time I fought an Animated Object I was a rogue. While I couldn't get past its DR, my party and I kept the monster prone with Trip attacks and blinded while the Barb Power Attacked past the monster's DR. We were useful during the combat and we all felt like stars.

Actually, that animated object encounter fit perfectly into the RPS model. Remember, the Barbarian probably could have beaten that thing alone, but with everyone else busily aiding him, it became extremely one-sided.

That's what the RPS model is supposed to look like - in the battles where one character is dominant and the other characters are at a disadvantage, the other characters aid the dominant character. Essentially the "star role" goes round and round, and the rest of the party are "supporting cast" - they don't sit out the encounter altogether.

[ ] [x] [ ] Brass Golem

That's going to be extremely difficult to implement. A Brass Golem has unlimited Spell Resistance, hefty DR and Immunity to Sneak Attacks. As is, there is little that a Spell Caster or Rogue can do to one.

That being said, the Rogue probably loses or draws this fight (depending upon what sort of abilities we end up giving the Rogue), and the Wizard probably loses this fight (since whatever he does it's almost certainly going to be magic-related, and the Golem is functionally immune to most of it). If the 10th level Fighter also loses, then the Golem is by definition too low of a CR, and needs to be evaluated at a higher CR (like 12) and so on until some PC type starts kicking its ass - which is never going to be the Wizard because of the whole Magic Immunity thing.

Remember, Golems really aren't that good in melee, they just happen to be immune to all other forms of attack. As such, they should be evaluated as "magic immune weak combatants" and not as "quirky monsters with weird powers" like you seem to be doing.

-Username17

[The_Hanged_Man]

Good point. Brass Golems are just weird, so I put them in the category of bad fighter opponents. They probably are more mage-killer sorts of things.