Mutant: Year Zero was a Swedish RPG translated to good effect. Kult is getting a new edition which is looking good. Its only logical that other Swedish games be released in the west.
Will this one be based/inspired by Apocalypse World too ? It seems to be the new fad on the Viking lands.
Ulisses Spiele tries to launch Das Schwarze Auge in the US
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So we are talking about a very traditional German rpg in existance since the mid-80's.
So you chime in with a post stating that it is a Swedish game and you speculate about it being influenced by Apocalypse World.
I do not know what to say.
So you chime in with a post stating that it is a Swedish game and you speculate about it being influenced by Apocalypse World.
I do not know what to say.
Last edited by Daniel on Wed Aug 05, 2015 9:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
Ah, gotcha, it's been a while since I read it.Daniel wrote:No what Frank reviewed is a Czech game that may have been influenced lightly by DSA.
The scary thing about DSA is, that you can always confidently (over a timespan of 30 years!) state about the designers, that they should have known better.
They were never isolated from the American rpg scene. They always worked for an at least respectably sized company in the rpg industry. There was always plenty of feedback from the fan community. There were always some serious professionals in related field (artists, computer game designers, traditional game designers) available for feedback.
And still...
The game has been doing pretty well for 3 decades, but except for the very early days, that is not on the strength of the rules set
Edit: Daniel, just don't engage Silva.
Last edited by Prak on Wed Aug 05, 2015 9:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.
Winnah wrote:No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.
FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.
You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
silva wrote:Mutant: Year Zero was a Swedish RPG translated to good effect. Kult is getting a new edition which is looking good. Its only logical that other Swedish games be released in the west.
Will this one be based/inspired by Apocalypse World too ? It seems to be the new fad on the Viking lands.
I played a campaign with some friends about five or six years ago. I am not sure which edition it was, but the one thing I clearly remember was the group:Daniel wrote:I have played DSA of and on since 1984. Usually of, 'cause OMG.So I know it has massive issues.
But you are the second guy on this short thread to claim that casters are very powerful. Comparable to, or even more powerful than D&D casters.
Clearly I have missed something big, because I've never noticed that.
So.What makes them so powerful?
- Wizard (Full-Caster God)
- Hexe/Witch (Full-Caster God)
- 3 non-wizards including me (Lowly, lowly serfs).
Ok, my char was a harlequin or something, I had one special ability / spell-like similar to Tasha's Hideous Laughter, just a joke-based disable. One spell, which was the only thing worthwhile my character had on his character sheet. (The chars were made by the DM).
Well, three of the group were constantly near-death, while the two casters were flying around, solving everything by themselves, ganking monsters, even getting more mana because of weather changes or so, and the main problems in the adventure were that the 3 of us were holding the two casters back....
I am not sure how much of this was DSA and how much of it was house-ruled, but the group was playing DSA for years and I think I was the only newbie.
I played many D&D rounds in various editions but I've never experienced such a divide as in that campaign. Anecdotal, yeah, but it was my only exposure to real german DSA.
Last edited by malak on Wed Aug 05, 2015 11:43 am, edited 2 times in total.
Malak
What you played is DSA 4th edition.
And you either played a jester style entertainer with a little bit of magic, or a Schelm, with a (for them) embarrassing magic shortage. A Schelm in DSA is a person kidnapped by Kobolds as a young child and than raised by them. A thing with Schelme is that they can all wiggle their ears and touch the tip of their nose with their tongue.
What you often see in DSA 4 characters is that they have a very limited bag of tricks. So a well build full caster can reliably do (very rough estimate here) 5 spells and not much else. A non-caster can reliably do (same rough estimate here) 5 skills and not much else. If you are a well build non-caster adventurer, one of those skills will be efficiently killing with a weapon.
So yeah, if the casters in a party have spells that are applicable to all problems encountered in the campaign and the non-casters only have skills like advanced pastry making... You get the idea.
Normally, the casters have the advantage of being flashier and the disadvantage of running out of juice, while the non-casters, can use their skills all day.
What you played is DSA 4th edition.
And you either played a jester style entertainer with a little bit of magic, or a Schelm, with a (for them) embarrassing magic shortage. A Schelm in DSA is a person kidnapped by Kobolds as a young child and than raised by them. A thing with Schelme is that they can all wiggle their ears and touch the tip of their nose with their tongue.
What you often see in DSA 4 characters is that they have a very limited bag of tricks. So a well build full caster can reliably do (very rough estimate here) 5 spells and not much else. A non-caster can reliably do (same rough estimate here) 5 skills and not much else. If you are a well build non-caster adventurer, one of those skills will be efficiently killing with a weapon.
So yeah, if the casters in a party have spells that are applicable to all problems encountered in the campaign and the non-casters only have skills like advanced pastry making... You get the idea.
Normally, the casters have the advantage of being flashier and the disadvantage of running out of juice, while the non-casters, can use their skills all day.
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AcidBlades
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Mutant Year Zero means "roll d6 and d6 as tens and ones" and writes "roll d66". This game made me choke an adorable little kitten.silva wrote:Mutant: Year Zero was a Swedish RPG translated to good effect. Kult is getting a new edition which is looking good. Its only logical that other Swedish games be released in the west.
Will this one be based/inspired by Apocalypse World too ? It seems to be the new fad on the Viking lands.
Magic in DSA is not really less powerful than in DnD. While the warrior has to fight one dude at a time when he's level 20, the wizard can cast horriphobus and send a whole pack of monsters running from the beginning. But the real reason why casters are better than you in DSA, is what malak brought up: you ride a fuckin' horse or have to wait for dm-pitty to get a griffon, and they ride their flying carpets or brooms. Also, skills or talents blow; just like in DnD. Really, for the levels that matter there's no difference between DnD and DSA regarding this issue.
The only difference is that in DSA there are even more ways for the dm to fuck you over because they use spell points and these points are not recovered over one night. So a grognardy DM (and DSA-dms are all grognardy as fuck) will beat you up while you're recovering your precious juice just because he's angry that you totally dominated the last fights by casting invisibility or fly.
One of its strong points is that DSA lore has a lot to offer, but as has been mentioned too, purchasable adventures are railroady as fuck and frequently encourage the dm to fuck the pcs over (just like the rulebooks).
The only difference is that in DSA there are even more ways for the dm to fuck you over because they use spell points and these points are not recovered over one night. So a grognardy DM (and DSA-dms are all grognardy as fuck) will beat you up while you're recovering your precious juice just because he's angry that you totally dominated the last fights by casting invisibility or fly.
One of its strong points is that DSA lore has a lot to offer, but as has been mentioned too, purchasable adventures are railroady as fuck and frequently encourage the dm to fuck the pcs over (just like the rulebooks).
Last edited by zugschef on Thu Aug 06, 2015 8:07 am, edited 2 times in total.
while it is true that dsa magic can be very powerful, i cannot agree that it is in any way similar to d&d in powerlevel.zugschef wrote:Magic in DSA is not really less powerful than in DnD. While the warrior has to fight one dude at a time when he's level 20, the wizard can cast horiphobus and send a whole pack of monsters running from the beginning. But the real reason why casters are better than you in DSA, is what malak brought up: you ride a fuckin' horse or have to wait for dm-pitty to get a griffon, and they ride their flying carpets or brooms. Also, skills or talents blow; just like in DnD. Really, for the levels that matter there's no difference between DnD and DSA regarding this issue.
The only difference is that in DSA there are even more ways for the dm to fuck you over because they use spell points and these points are not recovered over one night. So a grognardy DM (and DSA-dms are all grognardy as fuck) will beat you up while you're recovering your precious juice just because he's angry that you totally dominated the last fights by casting invisibility or fly.
One of its strong points is that DSA lore has a lot to offer, but as has been mentioned too, purchasable adventures are railroady as fuck and frequently encourage the dm to fuck the pcs over (just like the rulebooks).
lets take your horriphobus, for example. (which incidentally also illustrates why dsa is a horrible system
)casting on more than one target increases the difficulty, cause it's a modification of the basic spell. if you cast it on more than one target, you add up the number of targets and then add the highest magic resistance of the group. this will result in a significant modifier, unless we are talking about very weak opponents.
the spell takes 3 actions to complete, so you cannot get it off in one round unless you modify it again. so you get the choice of being vulnerable for a turn (most dsa wizards are quite fragile and spells can be interrupted) or you add another modification, which makes the modifier even worse.
to get the result of "sends them running" you'd have to pass the spellcheck and retain 10 skillpoints. if you retain less than 7 the spell would simply be a semi-decent debuff. only a true master of the spell would be expected to pull that off and as has been mentioned before, the way xp works in dsa you will only be to master very few spells.
and even if you do pull off such a feat, your magic points would take quite a hit. if cast on 3 or 4 targets, a horriphobus would take about a third of most wizards magic points. recoverig them takes a lot of time in dsa and magic potions are absurdly expensive.
flying carpets are very rare and only witches (a seperate spellcasting class) use brooms. witches need to touch the ground to cast spells normally, so when you are airborne you most likely won't cast anything useful.
magic in dsa can be strong and some spells can definitely be considered "op", but the power level of wizards not even close to d&d levels.
Greetings. Long time reader, first time poster here. 
As I played DSA for roughly 20 years (starting in 1985), maybe I can give some pointers about the evolution of the system.
DSA (1984)
Basics:
5 Base Stats and some more fixed stats by class (hitpoints, offense&defense, spellpoints if caster), Skills only in Advanced rules, simple magic system, no destinction between class and race (fighters were human, dwarves were... well, dwarves)
Notable:
- Elves had 6 spells, Wizards used those + an additional 7
- Wizards were able to buy permant spell points via gold (most abused rule ever AFAIR)
- Clerics only in advanced rules
- A very limited class advancement system in advances rules: the base class "adventurer" was able to become a jack-of-all-trades, druid, fighter or priest
DSA Professional (1986)
Basics:
- Rules for characters of Level 15 and above. Including a new world to conquer (literally!)
- New magic subsystem that replaced the current with runes that technically allowed for thousands of spells through clever combination
- Combat rules were expanded with body zones
Notable:
- The rules were combined with a voyage into a hollow world (later retconned to a new dimension)
- Two boxed sets were published, before this series was cancelled due to lack in sales.
- None of these rules made it into DSA 2, though the fluff was mentioned in some later sources.
DSA 2 (1988)
Basics:
5 new bad stats (e.g. curiosity, greed, superstition), that were mandatory. Skills were now a part of the base rules. Spells become skills, your combat profiency with different kinds of weapons, too
Notable:
- Crappy stats and low skill values made sure you almost blew every important skill roll, especially because you needed 3 d20 roll-unders.
- Many new classes, though most only differed by the starting values of their skills in terms of crunch: Fighter, Mercenery, Thorwaler (the viking of DSA), Dwarf were all fighing classes
- As now every spell was also a skill (though only learnable by casting classes), it was now possible (in theory) to learn spells from other classes. However, in most cases they started with very low (means: negative) values and fluffwise you had to find a teacher. Still it made for interesting possibilities in the late game, if one started training these spells early in his career.
- Source books broadened the choice for dwarves and elves by adding new classes only for them (like the dwarven rogue/gigolo).
DSA 3 (1992)
Basics:
2 new good and 2 new bad stats. And you still had to roll them during character creation.
Notable:
If I remember correctly it was this edition clerical miracles (their spells) were stripped of almost all rules and were left to DM fiat. Meaning the cleric simply prayed for something and the DM decided if this was in conjunction with the deitys portfolio/domain and how much karma it would cost.
DSA 4 (2001)
Basics:
- Now everything was bought with Generation points from the beginning: choice of race (including different locations/cultures), profession, stats
- Introduction of feats and (dis-)advantages (the bad stats were now disadvantages, that could be taken to increase the pool of genereation points)
Notable:
Massive specialisation was possible by stacking boni. It was eben possible to start with the skill modifiers of two professions (at least in the non-casting bracket), to start with two-digit values in some skills
In 2006 DSA 4.1 was released but I don't know much about this version.
This is by no means complete and may have some errors due to being so long ago that those versions were published.
As I played DSA for roughly 20 years (starting in 1985), maybe I can give some pointers about the evolution of the system.
DSA (1984)
Basics:
5 Base Stats and some more fixed stats by class (hitpoints, offense&defense, spellpoints if caster), Skills only in Advanced rules, simple magic system, no destinction between class and race (fighters were human, dwarves were... well, dwarves)
Notable:
- Elves had 6 spells, Wizards used those + an additional 7
- Wizards were able to buy permant spell points via gold (most abused rule ever AFAIR)
- Clerics only in advanced rules
- A very limited class advancement system in advances rules: the base class "adventurer" was able to become a jack-of-all-trades, druid, fighter or priest
DSA Professional (1986)
Basics:
- Rules for characters of Level 15 and above. Including a new world to conquer (literally!)
- New magic subsystem that replaced the current with runes that technically allowed for thousands of spells through clever combination
- Combat rules were expanded with body zones
Notable:
- The rules were combined with a voyage into a hollow world (later retconned to a new dimension)
- Two boxed sets were published, before this series was cancelled due to lack in sales.
- None of these rules made it into DSA 2, though the fluff was mentioned in some later sources.
DSA 2 (1988)
Basics:
5 new bad stats (e.g. curiosity, greed, superstition), that were mandatory. Skills were now a part of the base rules. Spells become skills, your combat profiency with different kinds of weapons, too
Notable:
- Crappy stats and low skill values made sure you almost blew every important skill roll, especially because you needed 3 d20 roll-unders.
- Many new classes, though most only differed by the starting values of their skills in terms of crunch: Fighter, Mercenery, Thorwaler (the viking of DSA), Dwarf were all fighing classes
- As now every spell was also a skill (though only learnable by casting classes), it was now possible (in theory) to learn spells from other classes. However, in most cases they started with very low (means: negative) values and fluffwise you had to find a teacher. Still it made for interesting possibilities in the late game, if one started training these spells early in his career.
- Source books broadened the choice for dwarves and elves by adding new classes only for them (like the dwarven rogue/gigolo).
DSA 3 (1992)
Basics:
2 new good and 2 new bad stats. And you still had to roll them during character creation.
Notable:
If I remember correctly it was this edition clerical miracles (their spells) were stripped of almost all rules and were left to DM fiat. Meaning the cleric simply prayed for something and the DM decided if this was in conjunction with the deitys portfolio/domain and how much karma it would cost.
DSA 4 (2001)
Basics:
- Now everything was bought with Generation points from the beginning: choice of race (including different locations/cultures), profession, stats
- Introduction of feats and (dis-)advantages (the bad stats were now disadvantages, that could be taken to increase the pool of genereation points)
Notable:
Massive specialisation was possible by stacking boni. It was eben possible to start with the skill modifiers of two professions (at least in the non-casting bracket), to start with two-digit values in some skills
In 2006 DSA 4.1 was released but I don't know much about this version.
This is by no means complete and may have some errors due to being so long ago that those versions were published.
Last edited by eldarion on Thu Aug 06, 2015 9:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
I've played DSA only once, probably an old edition.
Played the "introduction scenario".
We spent some time buying equipment for our starting characters only to learn that the scenario started with us having been robbed and having nothing left. We were left freezing to death in a cold country and had to look for a place to stay. There was a nearby house that seemed to have somebody inside. When we asked in, he told us 'okay but I need you to sign this stuff with your blood". I said no and went knocking at each and every door of the town, but nobody ever answered.
I then tried to get someone else's blood on the contract (not sure if I took an animal or asked a fellow PC who was okay with signing with his blood) but the guy found out and asked me to do it.
So I did it, and we got a place to stay and, surprise, we now had to do a fucking quest for the guy. There was something about a jewel, we had to see the queen and I think that she was about to send us on a fetch quest in order to solve the problem when half of the party went insane by the whole absurdity and railroading of the plot and just kept making puns on the jewel name and explaining to everyone just how absurd the whole situation was.
We didn't play ever again.
Played the "introduction scenario".
We spent some time buying equipment for our starting characters only to learn that the scenario started with us having been robbed and having nothing left. We were left freezing to death in a cold country and had to look for a place to stay. There was a nearby house that seemed to have somebody inside. When we asked in, he told us 'okay but I need you to sign this stuff with your blood". I said no and went knocking at each and every door of the town, but nobody ever answered.
I then tried to get someone else's blood on the contract (not sure if I took an animal or asked a fellow PC who was okay with signing with his blood) but the guy found out and asked me to do it.
So I did it, and we got a place to stay and, surprise, we now had to do a fucking quest for the guy. There was something about a jewel, we had to see the queen and I think that she was about to send us on a fetch quest in order to solve the problem when half of the party went insane by the whole absurdity and railroading of the plot and just kept making puns on the jewel name and explaining to everyone just how absurd the whole situation was.
We didn't play ever again.
Last edited by Blade on Thu Aug 06, 2015 9:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
Blade
That would be this 1st edition module.
http://www.wiki-aventurica.de/wiki/Unter_dem_Nordlicht
A classic example of something that might have worked as a novel, but never as a rpg adventure.
That would be this 1st edition module.
http://www.wiki-aventurica.de/wiki/Unter_dem_Nordlicht
A classic example of something that might have worked as a novel, but never as a rpg adventure.
Last edited by Daniel on Thu Aug 06, 2015 10:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
All the adventure modules published for DSA, with pictures of the front covers.
http://www.wiki-aventurica.de/wiki/Aben ... BCbersicht
If the contents lived up to the covers, DSA would be the greatest fantasy rpg ever.
http://www.wiki-aventurica.de/wiki/Aben ... BCbersicht
If the contents lived up to the covers, DSA would be the greatest fantasy rpg ever.
Last edited by Daniel on Thu Aug 06, 2015 10:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
As you can read in the posts below yours, this game is unlikely to be the Pathfinder killer you long for.AcidBlades wrote:I really hope this is game is good. We probably need a Pathfinder killer and move the fuck on from DnD. As good as 3.5 was in it's elegance and splendor.
Oh wells.
And this is sad, because if DSA had consistently played to it's strengths over the past 3 decades, it would have:
Simple beginner friendly rules.
A setting deep enough for "Empire of the Petal Throne" fans, but understandable for the rest of us.
A game you can play with both 10 year old girls.
http://www.wiki-aventurica.de/wiki/Inseln_im_Nebel
And adults.
http://www.wiki-aventurica.de/wiki/Namenlose_Nacht
Last edited by Daniel on Thu Aug 06, 2015 11:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
to be honest, the only strength of dsa is the setting and the incredibly detailed lore. but you need to be into such detail AND you need to enjoy this particular setting for that to count as a "strength" of dsa.Daniel wrote:As you can read in the posts below yours, this game is unlikely to be the Pathfinder killer you long for.AcidBlades wrote:I really hope this is game is good. We probably need a Pathfinder killer and move the fuck on from DnD. As good as 3.5 was in it's elegance and splendor.
Oh wells.
And this is sad, because if DSA had consistently played to it's strengths over the past 3 decades, it would have:
Simple beginner friendly rules.
A setting deep enough for "Empire of the Petal Throne" fans, but understandable for the rest of us.
A game you can play with both 10 year old girls.
http://www.wiki-aventurica.de/wiki/Inseln_im_Nebel
And adults.
http://www.wiki-aventurica.de/wiki/Namenlose_Nacht
noone plays dsa becasue they prefer the system over any other. the system is terrible! and that's me speaking as someone who has 2 dsa-campaigns active, with another one planned.
the new edition is an attempt at beginner-friendly rules and we'll see how that works out for them. i'm sceptical. they were not daring enough to write a completely new system from scratch and not skilled enough to fix the known flaws. i think the system will be bloated beyond anything a newbie could want pretty quickly again.
really? they managed to fuck it up right from the start? i thought making the whole system easier to get into was the whole point of the new edition. ah well, not that surprising, considering how they handled the beta.Daniel wrote:Shlominus
I read the quickstart. Those rules look neither beginner friendly, nor good.
Shlominus
I think they made minor improvements to the beta test and left it at that. And when I say minor improvements, I mean stuff that looks elegant in isolation, but is to complex to use on the spur of the moment in a run of the mill game.
Unless they simplified the skill rules by having each skill in a category use the same 3 attributes. But that is probably just a simplification for the quickstart.
I think they made minor improvements to the beta test and left it at that. And when I say minor improvements, I mean stuff that looks elegant in isolation, but is to complex to use on the spur of the moment in a run of the mill game.
Unless they simplified the skill rules by having each skill in a category use the same 3 attributes. But that is probably just a simplification for the quickstart.
Last edited by Daniel on Thu Aug 06, 2015 7:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
This what the German edition looks like.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5NjOnxS_98
I'll give them this, it's very pretty.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5NjOnxS_98
I'll give them this, it's very pretty.
So its like Shadowrun.Shlominus wrote:no one plays dsa becasue they prefer the system over any other. the system is terrible! and that's me speaking as someone who has 2 dsa-campaigns active, with another one planned. Wink
The traditional playstyle is, above all else, the style of playing all games the same way, supported by the ambiguity and lack of procedure in the traditional game text. - Eero Tuovinen
And the first part of promises to become an extensive review of DSA 5 in German by somebody who is apparently a connaiseur.
https://rpgnosis.wordpress.com/2015/08/ ... undregeln/
https://rpgnosis.wordpress.com/2015/08/ ... undregeln/
Apparently in may 2016 they are actually going through with this.
https://www.facebook.com/thedarkeyegame/
https://www.facebook.com/thedarkeyegame/