Another method of balancing equipment

[User3]

Three things:

1. Make equipment more breakable. Equipement does not share your saves, and has certain breaking points like:
A. Magic armor is destroyed when weapon damage kills the wearer.
B. Falling damage forces the contents of your backpack to make a shatter check. Roll one save, and apply to the mods for all your stuff to determine what breaks.
C. AoE attacks force item saves on the current priority list on a failed save.
D. Any item can be attacked with an AC that is its own, and not yours.

2. Make signature equipment (requiring a feat) repairable with a craft check and a simple quest requirement, and otherwise follow the current d20 rules for magic items.

3. Make non-signature equipment require an activation roll(Untrained Use Magic Device) or a 2-3 week "attuning time" to use new equipment and limits to the number of items that you can have attuned at one time. Unattuned items should also have a baleful effect when you fail a roll(not just fail by a certain amount).

4. Make items cost gold to make(or lots of craft checks to collect ingrediants), and no XP.

5. Equipment should be obvious when working.

Right now, a character can wear armor made out of vials of alchemist's fire, and fall 100 feet, get Fireballed or travel to the Plane or Fire, and nothing will ever break those vials of AF. People can't even attack those vials.

I think that if equipment was less durable, it would have a smaller chance for abuse in the game. If the sled full of magic gold daggers from the death cult you just axed got melted and destroyed by one enemy Fireball, you are less likely to carry sleds full of the stuff.

Standard equipment should just come and go naturally and organically. If the magic cloak that protects you from fire glows when its working, the Salamander you are fighting should have an option to hit it with a spear and nullify your protection.

[Desdan_Mervolam]

I seem to recall there are rules in the DMG already for items in your inventory breaking when you's smacked by a falling block, lightly toasted by a fireball, or fall off a cliff. I've never used them because using them causes the game to grind to a halt for ten minutes while we go down the line through the character's inventory, checking the condition of all his stuff.

-Desdan

[RandomCasualty]

Breakable equipment kinda sucks IMO, because it's a fighter hoser. Who is more likely to get struck in melee and have his armor damaged? Who is more likely to fail his reflex save agaisnt a lightning bolt and get his shield fried? Who is always taking damage which could potentially be to equipment?

The fighter.

So the wizard is gaining more of a magic item edge and the fighter is falling further behind.

[Username17]

Futzing around with equipment breakage is:

1. Frustrating.
2. Time consuming.
3. Pointless.

Remember AD&D? It had all kinds of crazy rules for your equipment breaking all the time. Did it actually "fix" anything? No, it didn't.

All it meant was that people had squirrel caches of magic swords all the time, and periodically you got really pissed off at the DM because he dropped Green Slime on your favorite hat.

Characters, especially Fighters were totally subservient to their equipment, and that equipment was wildly malleable. Essentially, as a Fighter you didn't even get to advance your character at all.

When equipment goes away, that doesn't solve any problems, it just makes the players have less knowledge and control over what their character is going to be like in a few adventures - essentially it just alienates the player from their character.

That is a step forward if and only if you also intend to force players to make new characters all the time and you want to soften the blow.

-Username17

[User3]

No game that I have ever played in has used any rules for killing equipment (in 3e or any other version of DnD).

In AD&D, the fact the equipment was "DMs choice" meant that you never had any control over what you had and every magic item was carefully hoarded for the future.

In 3e, you spend feats and money and XP and though you have more choice and you could start to built whole characters around your equipment (a terrible idea, but whatever), its still so precious that no one is willing to part with it for any reason or play by any "lose equipment" rules.

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By allowing items to be more flexible and easier to make, and having rules to attune them, you remove the incentive to hoard them or cry when they break. Allowing them to break makes it easier for the DM to moderate the effects of magic item sleds or similiar stupidity.

For signature items(which are your class ability), repairing them shouldn't be more work than curing ability drain or getting a Cure Disease. That way, your favorite magic hat is still good to go next adventure.

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Here is my proposed mechanic for falling damage and equipment:
1. Roll once.
2. Look at the save mods for your items(pre-written on your sheet).
3. Items that would survive the DC of that fall do so, and the others break.

Here is a simple example:
Alanda the Elven Fighter fails a save and falls 100 ft into a pit trap. He failed a save, so his loose equipment(backpacks, things in pouches, non-held weapons or non-worn armor, etc) is affected. He rolls a d20. He gets a 6. The DC for this fall is 15. Any items with less than a +9 Fort Save break. The whole thing takes 30 seconds, if you wrote down the saves of your equipment beforehand (and if you didn't you get as much respect from me as the guy who looses his character sheet every session and needs to rewrite it from scratch).

Of course, the little chart for item breaking has to be redone to make some items have bigger saves, but thats not too hard.

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As for the "fighters get hosed by this mechanic," I don't really see that. Wizards don't get much out of equipment, so the fact that their equipment breaks less is not really an issue.

Since replacing equipment is much easier, I'd think that fighters would actually have better equipment overall.

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Making the DC for UMD based on the CL of the item seems like a better idea, keeping low-level rogues from getting hosed all the time and high level rogues from winning all the time.

[Username17]

its still so precious that no one is willing to part with it for any reason or play by any "lose equipment" rules.

So your solution is to attempt to balance things by introducing optional rules that you admit people won't want to use?



-Username17

[Desdan_Mervolam]

1091133589[/unixtime]]Here is my proposed mechanic for falling damage and equipment:

Okay, so now not only do we need to decide what the save bonus for each piece of equipment against a variety of scenarios, but with the way it's set up the odds lean strongly to either losing most or all of your equipment, or losing little to none of your equipments since I really really doubt that there will be that much difference between the bonus.

As for the "fighters get hosed by this mechanic," I don't really see that. Wizards don't get much out of equipment, so the fact that their equipment breaks less is not really an issue.

Since replacing equipment is much easier, I'd think that fighters would actually have better equipment overall.

Well... errr... ummm... What?

What does the equipment dependancy of wizards have to do with the equipment dependancy of fighters? Seriously, that statement makes no sense.

-Desdan

[User3]

Frank,
If people can replace equipment in an easier manner that neither requires a huge quest or screwing their character in a permanent way, I think they would want to play with an easier "lose equipment rules." People don't do it now because the XP required for magic item creation never comes back,a dn you spend the rest of your days behind the rest of the party.

If you can just spend cash to make or buy items, losing one is not a big issue.

Dm,
We don't have to decide any item saves. They have already been precalced for us in the system. Its as simple as writing three numbers next to an item when you write it on your sheet. Do you have trouble wrting down the damage of a weapon or the armor bonus of a shield when you put that on your sheet?


As for the other issue, yes, most fighters are more dependant on equipment. Thats bad. Weaker equipment forces fighters to diversify their feats and class abilties. Spending four feats to get a +2 attack/+4 damage with greatswords is crap if your +2 sword might get destroyed in the first combat of the adventure and you are forced to use a longsword for the rest of the adventure.

Fighters can be perfectly viable without monster-sized bonuses from equipment. It takes a little more planning and foresight, but it can be done.

[Oberoni]

I'm confused, I thought that the general consensus 'round here is that Fighters are sub-optimal as is.

Soooooooooooooo...why exactly are we nerfing them again?

[Username17]

Look, people don't like to play with equipment damage rules in Shadowrun, where you can just get the items back by marking off a relatively small amount of money from your character sheet.

They don't like to play with equipment damage rules in Call of Cthulhu, where it's just a matter of erasing the item from your character sheet, announcing that you are going to go get another one, and writing it back in.

They don't even like to play with equipment damage rules in Champions, where it's just a matter of remembering that you don't have the item until the next scene in which you mysteriously have it again with no explanation at all.

People don't like playing with equipment damage rules because it is a fvcking pain in the ass. The fact that it is no more or less balanced inherently than no equipment damage is entirely besides the point. Keeping track of equipment damage is like keeping track of character hunger levels. It might seem like a way to introduce more realism, but mostly it's just a way to piss people off with no tangible beenfit at all.

-Username17

[User3]

While its off topic, I was also bouncing around ideas for making some monster abilities work like equipment. Stabbing a beholders anti-magic eye used to be the way to start beating it, and that was fun.

You see, most monsters are given abilities that are basically level dependant stuff, and then they get some stuff to represent the magic items they don't have. By combining equipment damage rules with "some monster abilities as equipement," fighters get a huge advantage to tactics that they can do in battle.

But I still don't think that equipment damage rules need to be totally pervasive. Just by making it a little easier to affect stuff, people are forced to make characters that rely on their own abilities.

[The_Hanged_Man]

The most common "monster" in the game are humanoids w/ equipment.

I see little practical difference between:

An orc with a +3 longsword;
An Orc w/ a longsword, and +3 to hit and damage;
An Orc that does 1d8 slashing damage, w/ +3 to hit and damage.

In 99.99999% of combats, those are all exactly the same thing. So, what does it matter if monster abilities are equipment instead of inherent abilities?

I also think of the poor hydra. What a stinking pain in the ass to figure out which head is being attacked by who and how many hp they have/

A good theoretical concept, but too cumbersome IMO.

[User3]

I see hydra's as being the monsters you fight with Whirlwind Attack or AoE spells. Basically, its 8+ monsters who just happen to share one square(s).

As for the orc example, the orc with the magic longsword can be disarmed, and forced to fight with grapples or unarmed combat. Having the ability to force a monster to go from 1d8+3 damage (7.5 damge average) at a +3 to hit to 1d3 damage (2 damage average) with no pluses and AoOs from making attacks is pretty big ability for a fighter, and cinematic as all hell.

It means little for a combat with a 1 HD orc, but with a 10th level blackguard/fighter half-orc with (Greater)Weapon Focus/specialization, you just cancelled out not just the +3 to hit/damage from the sword, but also the +2/4 from feats. Its a major hit on that monster, and a perfectly viable tactic for a fighter.

[The_Hanged_Man]

Right, like you use disarm that much. That's my point.

I can count on one hand the number of times somebody's sundered or disarmed something - and it was always a weird magic thing, not a run-of-the-mill item. It's a lame mechanic, it takes too long to do, people don't think it's much fun - and this would reward it.

Not a way to go, IMO.

[User3]

Right-o.

This would make it fun and more common. Adding new tactics to fighters is the only way to make them fun. Massive bonuses, once you get past the "gee, my cock is sooo large," are not fun to play.

At least not for me.

[Oberoni]

There's a flaw in that line of reasoning: when those new tactics are used against the fighter (i. e. having their cool magic sword smashed too easily), the fun gets flushed down the crapper.

Don't get me wrong, I totally support new tactics for fighters--but this isn't one of them.

[Draco_Argentum]

1091205545[/unixtime]]
An Orc w/ a longsword, and +3 to hit and damage;

Din, ding, ding, ding, ding.

Thats how you reduce reliance on equipment. If magice swords did cool stuff instead of straight bonuses you'd use a sword for the cool factor, not becuase +1 to hit and damage is better than pretty much any other power you can get on a sword. Goodbye chuck-away factor. Goodbye you got MDJed. Goodbye you got imprisoned and now suck super hard.

[RandomCasualty]

Reliance on equipment is a problem only because class abilities don't cover enough and magic equipment is too common.

Treat magic swords like lesser artifacts and just build those attack/damage bonuses into the combat classes basic ability list. You can have lesser magic swords which don't have bonuses at all, but just allow you to strike incorporeals and other "magic" stuff.

Breaking weaposn isn't going to solve anything. As Frank said, it's just going to annoy people.

[Username17]

Thats how you reduce reliance on equipment. If magice swords did cool stuff instead of straight bonuses you'd use a sword for the cool factor, not becuase +1 to hit and damage is better than pretty much any other power you can get on a sword. Goodbye chuck-away factor. Goodbye you got MDJed. Goodbye you got imprisoned and now suck super hard.

There's a major flaw in this reasoning. If you have special abilties that allow you to strike multiple enemies, or jump super high, or whatever, and your equipment provides the bonuses you need to compete - when a MDJ hits you are screwed.

But you know what? If you have special abilities that give you big phat bonuses and your equipment lets you strike multiple enemies and jump super high, or whatever - then when a MDJ hits you are screwed.

It's not really important what part of the character comes from the equipment and what part comes from the character - as long as MDJ wipes out part of your character you're still going to be left playing some kind of broken shell of a character when the MDJ hits. Whatever part of your character is defined by equipment, that MDJ is still going to leave you in a position where you'd be better off retiring and pulling in a new character who comes with equipment.

---

The only way you are ever going to be in a situation where you wouldn't be better off starting a new character at the end of any adventure you got hit with a MDJ is if your equipment automatically regenerates between adventures or does not exist at all. Since we can't really run fantasy where you can't pick up a magic sword from time to time, the only possible solution is the first.

Magic equipment must reassert itself between adventures or it's just a special kind of XP that is losable in such a manner as to totally fvck you. Saying "Don't worry, we'll just give out so much you won't even miss it" is not a solution. You're still better off in the immediate sense (and the long run, for that matter) to just restart a new character.

I seem to recall laying down my case for this sort of thing a while ago here:

http://frost.bbboy.net/thegamingden-vie ... br][br]And the more I see other people's attempts to work at these problems, the more sure I am that I was right.

-Username17

[User3]

If equipment is easier to get and easier to destroy, then it doesn't matter if you get hit with a MD or your sword is sundered. Its just as bad as if you got hit wth vile damage or a spell that needed a Break Enchantment. Tying the viablity of your character to equipement is terrible.

The reliance on equipment is a major flaw in DnD, especially in 3e. No ever says "Conan just lost his two handed sword, he's helpless" or "Frodo doesn't have Sting or his mithril chain, he's migh as well go home." We are not playing Diablo where the story is so thin that the only interesting thing about the game is the new do-dad you just pulled out of an orc's ass.

Heroes might be "the best swordsman in the land," and have a magic sword. but they are supposed to be almost as good with a normal sword, not "I'm down +5 to hit an damage, and I'm not flaming, so I can't even be in this battle. Wake me up for the RP part of the adventure."

[Username17]

Sure, fine. To a point. If you make equipment so replaceable that it actually makes no difference whether you lost or gained a magic sword or three during the last adventure - then there's no longer an incentive to restart your character.

But that actually has no bearing, at all, on how hard it is to destroy that equipment during an adventure. If your equipment "resets" between adventures, then it can be arbitrarily easy or difficult to destroy your equipment and it makes no difference and the MDJ problem is solved.

Otherwise you are totally talking out of your ass. If you aren't willing to go all the way, you aren't helping anythig by this route. If losing your magical dagger at level 2 means that you have one less magical dagger in your possession at level 15, then increasing the rate of dagger acquisition has not helped a god damned thing.

It's just increased the amount of paperwork everyone has to wade through.

-Username17

[GhostWhoTalks]

You guys have seen the d20 modern wealth system right?

I mean it doesn't really do jack to compare material wealth in the form of items that significantly enhance character effectiveness.

And it doesn't do much for preventing characters from seeking out valuable items to accrue vast piles of cash to spend on other better or more desirable items.

But it does do one good thing which could help the whole "complex accounting" issue in both a standard D&D wealth accruing system and in the reseting between story archs system.

It uses a more abstract means of dealing with what amounts to available cash.

Not to say THAT exact wealth system is the best way of doing it but if you want to cut down on book keeping for magic items and such... Something a little abstract like it might be wise.

Any system where you reduced the scale and costs from the current "well thats 10571 gp, and thats 6504 gp, how would you like to pay? gp, pp, cp, ep, gems, art items, trade it, a combination?" to a system I dunno, where a +1 item cost 1 cash unit/wealth dc check increase and a +2 item cost 2 units/dc (or whatever rate of increase your system is using).

Its just a vague suggestion but you know, smaller numbers means easier faster maths, no reason to work on some insane scale in the thousands with minor variations of annoying small amounts tacked onto the ends and such.

[RandomCasualty]

1091323883[/unixtime]]
But that actually has no bearing, at all, on how hard it is to destroy that equipment during an adventure. If your equipment "resets" between adventures, then it can be arbitrarily easy or difficult to destroy your equipment and it makes no difference and the MDJ problem is solved.

MDJ just shouldn't exist at all. It isn't a fun spell to get cast on you, and PCs are destroying potential loot so rarely use it. Further it's basically a pure fighter hoser, and one that screws you for the rest of your life. Even if you implement your fix, that means it just screws you for the rest of the adventure, and that still blows.

In my opinion, the problem is reliance upon equipment in general.

We should shift the majority of the burden off equipment in general and move to a much more equipment lite version of the game. The bonuses can be mostly the same, it's just that the class bonuses are granting them now. Magic items are generally some pretty rare stuff you get ahold of that mostly do noncombat stuff, or give you minor bonuses on top of your existing ones, but a fighter is better than average with a magic sword and does not need one to compete. Destruction of magic items should never happen, except when its cinematically appropriate. Maybe somebody snaps excalibur using some special attack or something, but this is a plot device, not something anybody can do. This setup does a few things.

-Makes NPC warrior types competetive, as opposed to underequipped cannon fodder. For once you may be able to create a powerful warlord NPC without granting him ten times the usual amount of treasure.

-Removes the problem of low magical items versus high magical items and which class benefits most. Basically the DM can choose whatever wealth level he wants and it'll work, because each class has a basic package which is alone competetive with creatures of their CR.

-Fixes the problem of accounting balance sheets of equipment where PCs are constantly worried about the cost of each item, and lets them spend their treasure frivalously, because you can't buy magical items. And less math is generally a good thing.

-Because equipment is handed out by the DM almost exclusively, players are more worried about definining their character as opposed to defining his gear.

[Draco_Argentum]

1091292358[/unixtime]]
It's not really important what part of the character comes from the equipment and what part comes from the character - as long as MDJ wipes out part of your character you're still going to be left playing some kind of broken shell of a character when the MDJ hits. Whatever part of your character is defined by equipment, that MDJ is still going to leave you in a position where you'd be better off retiring and pulling in a new character who comes with equipment.

For the record I think MDJ is a bad idea for a spell. However, cool stuff dosen't need to be straight combat bonuses. Sting glows when orcs are near, its neat but makes little difference powerwise.

[Username17]

MDJ just shouldn't exist at all.

Why not? Granted it can't exist in a setup where you have a running tally of total wealth ever accumulated down to the last copper piece, and that form of XP is represented by destructable items.... but there's no particular reason why things have to work that way.

Instead you could just have equipment be based on some kind of equipment level system, and reset between adventures. Then you could hit people with MDJ and watch all their stuff go poof and then they'd be OK again next adventure.

Having your characters forced to fight naked in some manner from time to time is fun. Having your character stripped naked forever is not. If equipment resets, then MDJ is kind of like a Silence that works against Fighters, and it's fine. If equipment does not reset then it's permanently destroying PC XP regardless of whether it's being used by the PCs or the NPCs.

So yeah, MDJ shouldn't exist within the context of the current equipment system - but the current equipment system is a bad lot all around. It has numbers which are just too big and it breaks when exposed to players willing to take time off from adventuring to farm. There's no reason MDJ can't be an entertaining and acceptable spell within the context of an equipment system which is easier to deal with and more balanced.

-Username17