Annoying Game Questions You Want Answered

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Starmaker
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Post by Starmaker »

So for example, there is this great low-level adventure where you are supposed to Scooby Do in this hamlet for half the adventure and meet and greet the locals, and then head off a gnoll invasion by storming their cave lair. It has a lots of memorable NPCs, many of which are not involved in the current adventure.
Wedding Bells?
Then there is this other high-level fetch quest that is part of an adventure path, and it takes place in an Abyssal location and the backstory for that spot could easily be the focus for a whole campaign.
If it's from the same era, my guess would be Test of the Smoking Eye.
I also liked their one Vile adventure that was used as a showcase for the Book of Vile Darkness because they took several pages to talk about the pirate town, the relevant NPCs in town, and the various backstorys.
Porphyry House Horror, obvs.
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Post by radthemad4 »

Much obliged

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Count Arioch the 28th
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Post by Count Arioch the 28th »

Let's say someone sets their campaign world in a similar situation to the Tomes' endpoint of an undead plague (i.e., everyone still living is too high level for the undead to take down and as that's their primary mode of reproduction that causes them to lost a war of attrition from that point on). So everyone is coming back, all the resources are still there and split with far, far fewer people than before. Would it make sens to say that the tech level of that world could conceivably be higher very quickly after that? Seeing as how being better at everything correlates with character levels, the rare few scientists and engineers left would be brilliant and have more resources at their disposal.

Would that be plausible for a game world?
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Post by Korwin »

Count Arioch the 28th wrote:Let's say someone sets their campaign world in a similar situation to the Tomes' endpoint of an undead plague (i.e., everyone still living is too high level for the undead to take down and as that's their primary mode of reproduction that causes them to lost a war of attrition from that point on). So everyone is coming back, all the resources are still there and split with far, far fewer people than before. Would it make sens to say that the tech level of that world could conceivably be higher very quickly after that? Seeing as how being better at everything correlates with character levels, the rare few scientists and engineers left would be brilliant and have more resources at their disposal.

Would that be plausible for a game world?
I would have assumed an lower tech Level, with less division of labour (because of less absolute numbers of People), more of the still living people need to do more and cant specialize.
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Post by Eikre »

Well, the idea of a world without an extreme proliferation of extraneous level 1 assholes isn't outside the realm of creditability at all. One of the Tomes might have gone over this, I'm not sure, but I'll say it here anyway: That's what our own world was like, at one point, before agriculture made it possible to support the caloric needs of a large and sedimentary populous. The nomadic hunter-gathers who predated the occupation of all the nicest land by settled societies enjoyed better nutrition and practiced a more diverse range of skills than their successors. They also lacked a lot of the standing facilities to keep the sick and infirm around for very long, or support more than a single infant per mother at a time. You'd take an average member of their societies over the average member of the earliest farmer societies any day of the week. Thing was, though, that there wasn't just one farmer per nomad; there were two hundred farmers per nomad. The original agrarian survival strategy was built on overwhelming numbers. Specialization was merely an emergent technique on top of that.

So, your undead plague will undo the circumstances that make it possible to support a vast and under-extraordinary population. But where the chief limiting factors in the population of a pre-agricultural society were the means of self-sustenance, the chief limiting factors in your post-plague society is going to be the means of self defense. Anyone powerful enough to personally provide for the protection of people other than themselves is going to find their capacities saturated by the up-and-coming generation, so anyone else that can hack it in adulthood is also going to be a skilled survivalist. You're not looking at a society that holds purges, or anything. Children who roll up 10s and 11s for all their stats and end up in shitty character classes will still be raised as cherished sons and daughters, but they're only going to make it to early adolescence, when it becomes necessary for them to pick up a sword and relinquish society's protection for the sake of their younger siblings. Those kids will be killed. Meanwhile, the members of their cohort who survive will continue to gain levels and eventually be the only ones replacing adult casualties and surviving to breeding age.

Obviously they'll still be a post-agrarian society. They'll seek shelter in fortresses to multiply their survival power, just like agrarians settled on farms to multiply their feeding power. And, as the agrarians provided small numbers of specialized fighting men to furnish their protection, the fortress-people will have a small host of domestic magicians who can feed everyone, leaving the greater fraction of manpower to organize a defense against the limitless hoard of the undead. But does that make for a society with skilled scientists or engineers, like ours does? Well, the thing is, technology doesn't really flourish unless you have a vast pool of idle and marginal academic talent loafing around, unoccupied with providing for their own existential needs. You can congratulate your Randian ubermensch for their brilliance as much as you like, but the intellectual establishment at large doesn't get any good forward momentum unless it has lots of marginal teachers who aren't up to the task of providing any meaningful breakthroughs who can cycle lots and lots of new students up to the level where they can take a look at the outstanding inquiries of the day, with the hopes that some small fraction of them might have the talents and affinities to make breakthroughs themselves. Otherwise, you're just at a standstill, with all of your designated academic are set mostly to the task of learning everything that society already knew so that they can, in turn, teach it to the tiny handful of brilliant youths who will be their replacements.

Now, wizardry can certainly advance under those circumstances. You can make a new level 1 wizard via an apprenticeship and then give him every single spell in the hands of the academic establishment by having him crib notes out of his teacher's book. You can put him to work casting Color Spray for a squad of fighters until he levels up and instantly gets to pick two new spells out of fucking nowhere. You can have him, with no prior experimentation, begin labor on new wondrous items and architecture that are complete one-offs, founded on nothing that that particular wizard has ever seen or heard of before except by having a copy of the prerequisite spells. He can do all this because magical science is founded on total horseshit, not an ever-increasingly sophisticated corpus of knowledge and theory that grows only in diligent focus and which carries so much organizational overhead.

So, in this, one of the ideas you offered deserves special rebuttal; you suggested that when "all the resources are still there and split with far, far fewer people than before," its means that "the rare few scientists and engineers left [...] have far more resources at their disposal." And. I mean. I don't want to make to fine of a point giving you shit for this, but it's kind of an act of will, because this notion is baffling. A scientist isn't going to have more resources after a massive depopulation event. A scientist's main resource is the population. There is absolutely jack shit that he can do with fallow croplands or huge stockpiles of unprocessed iron ore; what he needs is a society that, itself, has those things, so that they can keep him and about a thousand of his science-buddies all well fed and well equipped. What could possibly be left, after the wholesale destruction of the bottom 99% of the intelligentsia, that the remaining 1% could want? Less competition for government research grants? There wouldn't be a fucking government.


But the base idea is still very good. There are three directions it goes in, depending on the conceits you accept when you put the world together.

Totally Annihilated Kingdoms. Okay so let's say that a ruinous depopulation event actually does leave behind a bunch of important resources that are directly exploitable without a sprawling societal infrastructure. In this world, nobody's capable of doing any interesting magic without fabricating a lodestone and dropping it on a sacred leyline. But a single leyline can only provide the first spell level to any particular individual, and there are diminishing returns for them on every subsequent leyline. Also, every leyline is geometrically limited to only supporting a certain number of individuals.

In the old days, the greater potential of these leylines was debased by allocation schemes that favored broad domains and appeasement of a conditionally-passive aristocracy. So, when the plague came, there were comparatively few consolidated power bases; those that were are the only ones left. Now, the undead hordes are still out there, suppressing the ambitions of smaller men, but if one of the established powers was cunning and motivated, they could probably run the table... So that just leaves one question: Who wants to be a god?


Renaissance. The plague made monsters out of everyone who wasn't strong enough to resist, and then, when there were enough monsters, there wasn't anyone strong enough to resist. Not except for some places, where the walls were high, the doors were thick, and the population consisted of an unusually high percentage of badasses. Many years later, these few remaining enclaves of civilization are still standing, most of them stronger than ever before. But here's the thing: they're at their limit. The shift to total war is complete. The population is doing everything they can possibly do. What's left to do but fail?

This is the situation: If these strongholds don't fall to the siege, then they will most certainly fail in their isolation. The survivor societies have stable supplies and populations, but they are experiencing attrition in the form of lost skills. In this setting, nobody is permitted to take the first level in a class except when they have received training from someone who already has a level in that class, and nobody is allowed to cast a spell which their teachers did not personally know. And in that environment, it's easy for the survivor societies to detect when a skill is lost irrevocably. They know that there are were people from before the plague that were educated in marital schools unknown. They know that when the chief successor of a magical tradition dies without attaining the mastery of his predecessor, that those spells which were within his potential become lost forever. And that's a problem because it's really difficult to take skilled manpower off the line long enough to do the research from scratch.

So here's the plan: They gotta hook up with the other enclaves. They know there are other survivors out there; every once in a blue moon, circumstances and luck permit a runner to slip past the enemy and share news with distant establishments. And it's easy to see that their strengths could be one's own strength, if only there was a way to combine arms. So that's gotta happen. Somebody's gotta dare to break the impasse, to swing their gates and issue an offensive action. They've gotta open up one of the old roads and secure a line with another enclave. And they need to maintain their momentum and do it again. They need to build a triangle, patrol its exterior, and sweep its heartland for the ruins of civilization and bring back something that nobody even knew they were missing. And they've got to have to conviction to keep it up, as well as the prudence not to overextend. So... Who's gonna do it?


Points of Light.
So let's say you're an uninspired twat and want to pretend to have achievements without actually moving the status quo. Your players, being self-obsessed and interested only in devising further angst for their characters' backstories, are amenable to this state of affairs. So you're going to come up with a name for an ancient empire (or possibly more, if you'd like to give a couple of your core races their own in a failing attempt to make them interesting) and pretty much nothing else, because they're all dead now. It was the hubris of man. Not the kind that contributes to a complex series of failings which results in the slow decline in influence, though, because you are, in all likelyhood, a sociological moron. Nah, it was just some magical cataclysm that blew 'em all away and left a bunch of sedentary boss monsters in their basements. A thousand years later, your PCs kill the boss monster and find a +2 sword. Then they go back to a little town that was simple enough for you to conceptualize during that study hall when Jill was absent and you needed something to daydream about that wasn't a contrived opportunity to fuck her. In that town, they will hear about another basement with a different boss and go kill him, too. And at some point Jill might be absent again, so they'll get to go to a different town and do the same kinda shit over there. It's all good.
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Post by virgil »

Eikre wrote:Totally Annihilated Kingdoms. Okay so let's say that a ruinous depopulation event actually does leave behind a bunch of important resources that are directly exploitable without a sprawling societal infrastructure.
I'm pretty certain the conceits of the setting were not presuming some strange leyline stuff, but the remnants of zero-maintenance magic items and super tech (so...magic items with blinky lights). A cache of Murlynd's spoons (or clear ioun stones, or rings of sustenance), lyres of building, decanters of endless water, & golems (or the tech equivalent) may only sustain a finite number of people; but the conceit is that gathering them together is relatively simple and far outstrip the remaining population's needs. Similar principle applies to surviving spell books/blueprints, as the implied apocalypse isn't something that messes with material goods.

Of course, I may be totally misinterpreting Count's idea, as there are assumptions that will drastically change things. If the magic/tech is closer to real life, then specialized infrastructure and manpower is paramount for having better than salvage culture.
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Post by RadiantPhoenix »

My interpretation was also, "this seemed like a regular D&D world... but everything changed when the Nefashu attacked."
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Post by OgreBattle »

Are there any transcripts or records of what the early D&D tournaments were like? Such as the makeup of parties that succeeded/failed in various tournament modules and what they did to win/lose.
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Post by RedstoneOrc »

Why the fuck was snow flake wardance ever considered a good feat for bards? It stops you from making any god damn attacks save one, you can't cast, and you got to keep moving to keep it working which you might not want to do.

Damn forum nerds not knowing good things from bad.
I have currently hit the ignore feature 5 times on accident, and only once on purpose. This has got to be some kind of record.
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Post by erik »

RedstoneOrc wrote:Why the fuck was snow flake wardance ever considered a good feat for bards? It stops you from making any god damn attacks save one, you can't cast, and you got to keep moving to keep it working which you might not want to do.

Damn forum nerds not knowing good things from bad.
i think because you are not describing it. It gives cha bonus to hit as a free action. You don't get just 1 attack. You are not required to take a move.

It is still a melee boosting feat so yeah you are better off casting spells but it isn't the shit you described.
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Post by RedstoneOrc »

New fucking question why the fuck did I think you needed to move 10ft to keep wardance activated?
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Post by erik »

Maybe thinking of the Dervish which sometimes gets associated with it in builds and requires you to keep 5' stepping to continue. But Dervish does at least facilitate full attacks while moving.
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Post by Aryxbez »

On the idea of the Undeadapocalypse, I had a campaign idea for that, and I think it was somewhat like the "Renaissance" as Eikre may've suggested? (seems to hate "Points of Light" in his garbled message). That the undead won, and the remaining "bastions" civilizations left put up the "Hallowed/consecrated" barriers to keep out the zombies and do guerrilla style tactics. In addition to that, they likely know of other remaining Bastions (thanks to Scrying, and Sending spells), doing trade with those bastions, while possibly dealing with their politics. Speaking of, its the assumption of the bastions see themselves as Living "Time capsules" needed to eventually restart civilization to semblance of what it once was. Various bastions with royalty wanting Royal artifacts to legitimize their claim and rule the given bastion, and/or the other ones as well.

At the time, types of objectives or stuff could be done with it (obvious stuff I know):
1) Courier Runs: Delivering supplies to various Bastions, sending messages, and even requesting reinforcements (if one bastion is depleting). As well as scavenging various others for supplies to bring back to the Bastion.

2) Creating checkpoints/s so can go further out on Supply Runs, as well as have extended stays in enemy territory without too many buttstabbings.

3.) CHOP BEFORE DROP: Go out and fight Undead Guerilla-style warfare, and/or clear out a location that Undead have particular control of. This likely isn't as interesting, as even with a finite number of undead, so damn many it wouldn't really be too fun to do on its own.

4.) Dealing with Inter-Bastion Politics I think can be quite interesting. Helping to ensure a given bastion doesn't stagnate and fall because of the whims of humanoids, or possibly even better it. Such as helping take on "Judge/jury/executioner" type role to problematic members of the population (albeit pending their capabilities, don't wanna kill em off if they're too useful).

5.) Occasionally facing non-undead opponents. Whether its the rare super bandits that have managed to survive, Insane cthulian wizards, or somehow immune to becoming Undead. Bonus if can recruit, but that outside perspective creates more possible politics.

6.) Expanding the Bastion's territory to accommodate growing population, or fusing of a prior Bastion that had fallen or was abandoned. Likely also so to recapture some area that holds something vital (like railline make communication easier, Artifact, or terrain advantage).

7.) Finally, if the story arc is nearing its end, and need something to make it more tense. Could have it where other continents were hit by the apocalypse and somehow having found out, seeking to pilfur the land filled with untouched riches, or even provide reinforcements. Of course, may want to stop this, them having underestimated the threat here, and could only serve to add to the bodycount, repeating the apocalypse once more.
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Post by RelentlessImp »

Starmaker wrote:Porphyry House Horror, obvs.
Having read this piece of shit for my Savage Tide review, fuck Porphyry House Horror.
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Post by Prak »

Can you make a post about Porphyry? I really want to know more now.
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Post by Starmaker »

RelentlessImp wrote:
Starmaker wrote:Porphyry House Horror, obvs.
Having read this piece of shit for my Savage Tide review, fuck Porphyry House Horror.
Hey, no need to take it out on me, I only identified the adventures.
For that matter, Test of the Smoking Eye is nothing to write home about: "Yay, you can rule a level of the Abyss, but the effects are up to the MC and don't matter until after the campaign ends, anyway". But the town in Wedding Bells is really neat.
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Post by Count Arioch the 28th »

Poryphory house was hilarious. It tried so hard to be edgy that it went past grimderp to fucking hilarious. For example, the decision that since polymorphed animals didn't have the charisma to be prostitutes that they decided to polymorph random giant regenerating shit-eating monsters to be prostitutes... Someone was either a genius or retarded...
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Post by Prak »

Tha... fuck? "Animals don't work as polymorph prostitutes! Quick! Get some 15 HD CR 12 Aberrations!" Fuck, the 9 HD CR 4 Humanoid Alaghi is in the same book, and has the same Int score, and is actually humanoid and nearly unquestionably actually have sex. Ditto chosen ones and tyrantfog zombies--okay, the zombies probably don't have sex, but they have 6 Int, they should probably have some dim memories of it. Gulguthydras are A Wizard Did It hybrids of hydras and otyughs... they don't breed naturally. I get that they picked something high CR because it's a level 10 adventure, but... fuck, Bestow Curse is a 4th level Wizard spell. Scrolls of it cost 700gp. 10 of them are an acceptable 10th level encounter treasure, and one turns a human woman into an Int 6 pliable evil sex slave. That's way more "high grade evil" than "polymorph gulguthydras into sex slaves"
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You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
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Post by Count Arioch the 28th »

Someone could write a hilarious review of that adventure and not make any actual jokes, they can just say things that happen in it...
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Post by Eikre »

virgil wrote:]I'm pretty certain the conceits of the setting were not presuming some strange leyline stuff
No, I know what the conceit was, but being that my point was that his conceit didn't match with the emergent values he expected to derive, I offered two settings: One where the basic conceit was, in my opinion, foiled out more coherently (that being the Renaissance scenario), and one where I came up with a new conceit as an example of how he might set the stage for the game that I think he might have actually wanted to run.

RadiantPhoenix wrote:My interpretation was also, "this seemed like a regular D&D world... but everything changed when the Nefashu attacked."
Yeah, and I agree that's perfectly reasonable, it's just that you're talking about an extinction event on the turnip economy, and he's surmising that the new condition of their market will register a change in the wish economy. This is a discussion that lives in the Dungeonomicon's first principals.

Here's the situation. f the people pushing the upper limits of magitechnology already have clear ion stones and +5 spiked chains just for showing up, then no number of surplus rings of sustenance or +1 swords are going to register to them as an increase of resources. The only reason they might have a substantial personal concern for inferior items is if they are actually participating in a single economy where the base resources of account are fungible and can be consolidated into pools of power that more wealthy characters would actually care about. In which case, you're looking at one of two possibilities:

A: Consolidation is efficient; ten people with n units of power are incapable of defending themselves from a single person with 10n units of power. Monopolizing forces eventually consolidate all of the fungible resources in the hands of the wealthy, leaving only non-fungible, negligibly significant resources. The economy is now separated.

B: Consolidation is inefficient; ten people with n wealth can jointly defeat a single person with 10n wealth. The economy remains unified and in a broad state of equilibrium, because when the mob feels sufficiently threatened by a consolidated antagonist, they can form a coalition and stage an effective defense. A consolidated, economy-splitting force is impossible to accumulate unless it can be done without incurring a defensive reaction from the mob. Which would be possible if, for example, the mob was somehow all killed at once.

So in my leylines scenario, I posit situation B, with several specifications: First, the actual utility of the fungible resource is that it gives you character levels, making it pretty much the most direct possible application of wealth as an instrument of power. Second, the fungible resource is geographically distributed and cannot be moved from its point of origin, which constitutes one of the inefficiencies of power accumulation; a single agent can't ordinarily defend more than once resource cache at once, which means that collaboration is necessary to support a larger claim. And since every additional lodestone also delivers diminishing returns, it'll be increasingly more tempting to choose a broader distribution of power, even in commonwealths where the populous is otherwise trusting of their champions/de facto feudal leaders to use their abilities for the good of all. The fact that a leyline supports multiple individuals without detracting from the others is also a equalizing force because it supports aristocracies and republics where not even a maximal consolidation of power is truly unified. And it means that your adventuring party can just have a campaign without a single reason to voluntarily marginalize themselves and invest in just one champion.


Aryxbez wrote:(seems to hate "Points of Light" in his garbled message).
Yeah uh I dunno what happened back there. I was just gonna take the piss with some 4Eisms and then it looks like I kinda lost my cool for a second.

I mean, if there was a point, it was that running a static campaign with an anemic setting is something you can do right after a two-sentence hook and isn't really a game style that would require any Gaming Den musing or Tome-grade firepower.
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Post by Prak »

What do people think of Paizo's crit deck and the like? I use Roll20 instead of a physical battle mat for my game and I'm poking around at the cards and tables stuff, was thinking about putting that in.
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Winnah wrote:No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.
FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.

You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
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Post by hyzmarca »

Count Arioch the 28th wrote:Poryphory house was hilarious. It tried so hard to be edgy that it went past grimderp to fucking hilarious. For example, the decision that since polymorphed animals didn't have the charisma to be prostitutes that they decided to polymorph random giant regenerating shit-eating monsters to be prostitutes... Someone was either a genius or retarded...
Tyrannosauruses had 10 Charisma. That's not awesome, but it's more than enough for a $20 lay. They're in the SRD. If I were going to make polymorph sex slaves for my brothel, they would be my go to.
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Post by LeadPal »

Prak wrote:What do people think of Paizo's crit deck and the like? I use Roll20 instead of a physical battle mat for my game and I'm poking around at the cards and tables stuff, was thinking about putting that in.
Roll20's card feature is cool, but not cool enough to find excuses to add card mechanics just for it. I shouldn't have to tell you that crit houserules are always terrible.

The table feature is more useful, since you can use it to create multi-sided tokens. I wish I had known about it when I had a shapechanging PC.
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Post by icyshadowlord »

Why does GURPS seem to have such a bad reputation online? Any time I've played it, either with people over the internet or in person, it's run smoothly and been a good time.
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Post by Stinktopus »

icyshadowlord wrote:Why does GURPS seem to have such a bad reputation online? Any time I've played it, either with people over the internet or in person, it's run smoothly and been a good time.
From a game design perspective, a lot of people dismiss "toolbox" systems like GURPS and HERO because they require GM cooperation in the character building portion. Denners generally seem to hail the ideal of "use this system to make a level X character and it comes out balanced with someone else's level X character." Now, I think that's a lofty goal, but I'm a bit more open to GURPS's "any two 250 point characters are liable to be radically different, so consult with GM and/or party to make compatible PC's."

GURPS needs one or, preferably, more people at the table with a good system understanding to run smoothly. The same could probably be said of many games *cough* D&D 3.5 *cough*. If you do have people with a good grasp of the rules, you can really start to have your character do just about anything you can realistically think of, and have it pan out in the game.

"Ignoring my own safety, I swing wildly at his neck in the hopes of decapitating him!" is something that is totally built into the rules, and yields results you would expect. But it turns into a mess of looking up tables and charts and attack rules unless someone is on the ball (see D&D 3.5 grappling).

GURPS also suffers from the combination of being really lethal and being hard to make new characters. That's one of the reasons I tend to like it for one-shots/short campaigns, where I'll happily run D&D for years at a time.
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