[OSSR]Victorian Age Vampire

[Leress]

Confession: I always thought that Velma was more attractive than Daphne.

Preach!

[Chamomile]

I want to play in a campaign where every character in this image, including the wolf, is a player character.

[Prak]

World of Darkness is like an extended Aristocrats! set up.

[Grek]

Wait, does this board have a word filter for "kitchen"?

WTF?

E: Seemingly not. But when what's with

Disclaimer
This section does not advocate the running of deviant, perverse, and bizarrely sexually charged vampire chronicles, it simply tells you the role the Gothic novel played in the Victorian era and how to properly introduce such content into your own chronicle if you're so inclined. If mom, the wife or some other squeamish type happens to lurk by the (This post is most likely SPAM. Please report it, but do not reply.) or creep into the basement while you're telling a story and hears you describing the vile way that that Vorlasch the creepy Nosferatu feeds from the femoral arteries of little orphan girls, don't blame us. Besides, if you're that lax about security, it's your own damned fault.

the section in bold?

[Prak]

Fbmf set up a filter for the occasional spambot posts we get, that frequently include the word kitchen or bathroom. I don't know the exact context for the filter, but I'm aware of it.

[name_here]

It was selling some sort of kitchen product. I forget exactly what.

[hyzmarca]

Also, @hyzmarca, I think most nerds thought Velma was way more attractive than Daphne.

Confession: I always thought that Velma was more attractive than Daphne.

Preach!

It isn't just the nerdiness. Daphne is like a twig. Velma has more meat on her, and more up top though it's often hidden by her sweater. Even in official artwork and actual episodes, she fills out her voluminous turtleneck better than Daphne does her relatively tight dress.

I mean, just look at this. Daphne isn't exactly flat, but Velma is at risk for back pain when she's older.

Also, Velma's smile is altogether too wide in this scene, particularly when combined with Daphne's look of shock.

I want to play in a campaign where every character in this image, including the wolf, is a player character.

That's actually completely doable.

[Prak]

On the subject of Velma, there's also this image from the more recent cartoon with Velma and Daphne in sleepwear which... you would basically expect the other to be the sort to wear.

[Chamomile]

I want to play in a campaign where every character in this image, including the wolf, is a player character.

That's actually completely doable.

To clarify: I don't mean I want to play an actual oWoD game that has all of those characters, because if nothing else it takes a really killer hook to convince me to play WoD at all and somewhere just a notch or two below that threshold is a modern day gothic punk-vibed game in which the player characters are a brooding vampire aristocrat, a scheming advisor, Judge Dredd moonlighting as a bodyguard, an evil secretary, some kind of assassin-looking person, a wolf, and a gimp.

I doubt I could get anyone to actually run such a game even if there's a good system for it and I'm not sure I'd have time for it if someone did, but if you know of a not-WoD system that could handle that game I'd be interested just to hear about it.

[Wiseman]

On the subject of Velma, there's also this image from the more recent cartoon with Velma and Daphne in sleepwear which... you would basically expect the other to be the sort to wear.

Fanart, but still.

[hyzmarca]

Fred is obviously a Ventrue. Shaggy is probably a Toreador. Daphne, I suspect, is a Giovani who went "fuck this family, I'm out" after her Embrace, which explains while she's slumming it with a bunch of deadbeats who live in a van in spite of the fact that she obviously comes from money. Scooby is obviously a form-locked Glass Walker Abomnination, though he could be a Gangel. And Velma would secretly be an Assamite or a Follower of Set, I'm not sure which.

[Chamomile]

Fred is obviously a Ventrue. Shaggy is probably a Toreador. Daphne, I suspect, is a Giovani who went "fuck this family, I'm out after her Embrace, which explains while she's slumming it with a bunch of deadbeats who live in a van in spite of the fact that she obviously comes from money. Scooby is obviously a form-locked Glass Walker Abomnination, though he could be a Gangel. And Velma would secretly be an Assamite or a Follower of Set, I'm not sure which.

I would also play this campaign.

[Prak]

I prefer to think of Velma as a Settite, who provides the others with drugged up fang bangers to feed on.

[kzt]

I doubt I could get anyone to actually run such a game even if there's a good system for it and I'm not sure I'd have time for it if someone did, but if you know of a not-WoD system that could handle that game I'd be interested just to hear about it.

You can do that in Hero. I did a jaguar in a superhero game. Technically he was a werejaguar, but other then the one asshole GM who decided it would be fun to make me play my human form (Then got all huffy that my character really had bought the gun skills and weapons that the written background called for...) I just played him as a smart cat - who couldn't talk etc.

[GâtFromKI]

Is that a random dude with a vagina instead of his mouth ? A vagina with teeth inside ?

... I'm don't think you can get that in Corruption of Champion. Maybe some hentai explored that possibility ? Or WW is even more... imaginative than CoC and every hentai author ? That would be quite an accomplishment.

[Username17]

Hell, you don't even have to go to obscure guro hentai to get murderous face vaginas.

That's what the undersides of Alien facehuggers look like. And Alien came out in 1979. More than a decade before White Wolf existed.

Edit: Lovecraft had monstrous face vaginas with teeth on Gugs.

-Username17

[Longes]

Spoiler plz. I like being able to read the forum in public places.

[Prak]

Is that a random dude with a vagina instead of his mouth ? A vagina with teeth inside ?

... I'm don't think you can get that in Corruption of Champion. Maybe some hentai explored that possibility ? Or WW is even more... imaginative than CoC and every hentai author ? That would be quite an accomplishment.

Vagina Dentata is actually a super old folk loric idea, basically founded in the fact that men often know fuck all about vaginas.

[hyzmarca]

To clarify: I don't mean I want to play an actual oWoD game that has all of those characters, because if nothing else it takes a really killer hook to convince me to play WoD at all and somewhere just a notch or two below that threshold is a modern day gothic punk-vibed game in which the player characters are a brooding vampire aristocrat, a scheming advisor, Judge Dredd moonlighting as a bodyguard, an evil secretary, some kind of assassin-looking person, a wolf, and a gimp.

I doubt I could get anyone to actually run such a game even if there's a good system for it and I'm not sure I'd have time for it if someone did, but if you know of a not-WoD system that could handle that game I'd be interested just to hear about it.

I'm going to assume that the person in the full body covering is actually a devout Muslim woman wearing a badly drawn niqab.

The look in those eyes just says "why am I here of all places?" and the way the head is tilted it seems that she's trying not to look at anyone.

The wolf, I expect, would be a gangrel with a pet play fetish.

[Prak]

The person in the full body covering looks like the artist thought sikhs and muslims were the same thing. I prefer to think the gimp actually belongs to the wolf. Which doesn't bar the wolf from being a gangrel with a pet play fetish, but a modelocked werewolf abomination may work better.

[talozin]

Is that a random dude with a vagina instead of his mouth ? A vagina with teeth inside ?

... I'm don't think you can get that in Corruption of Champion. Maybe some hentai explored that possibility ? Or WW is even more... imaginative than CoC and every hentai author ? That would be quite an accomplishment.

When that book was first issued, White Wolf issued it in a plastic wrapper with that part of the back cover blacked out. So yes. Yes, that is exactly what it is.

[Mistborn]

Vagina Dentata is actually a super old folk loric idea, basically founded in the fact that men often know fuck all about vaginas.

[Chamomile]

The person in the full body covering looks like the artist thought sikhs and muslims were the same thing.

Maybe she's a confused westerner trying to convert and doing a rubbish job of it.

[Count Arioch the 28th]

Vagina Dentata is actually a super old folk loric idea, basically founded in the fact that men often know fuck all about vaginas.

Vaginas are terrifying enough already, It's an oozing opening into the abdominal cavity that sprays blood and rancid flesh out of it about 25% of the time. Granted, male parts look weird but as long as you're careful not to slam them in the car door or something they're pretty reliable.

[Ancient History]

Victorian Age Vampire
Chapter Six: Antagonists

It's Lord Vaginaface.

Musical choice is of course: The Enemy

AncientH:

Antagonists in a Vampire game are, by default, largely other vampires, sometimes mortal hunters or some other supernatural breed. You don't normally see vampire PCs descending into trap-filled dungeons, or otherwise struggling against their environment, because vampire survival involves some pretty stark terms: you need blood to survive and you scream and run when faced with sunlight or fire. If a vampire gets washed up on a desert island, they may well be fucked. Vampires do sort of struggle with themselves, in particular the Beast, but this is problematic in any sort of group narrative.

So almost by default, your Vampire campaign - especially your Victorian vampire campaign - is going to happen in something resembling civilization, which narrows down the kind of antagonists you're going to deal with.

FrankT:

A cooperative storytelling game is defined by its adversaries more than its heroes. Most fiction is defined more by the antagonists than the protagonists. We don't care about Batman because he's awesome, or even particularly different from a hundred other characters who wear dark outfits to fight crime in the dark. We remember Batman because he has a memorable cast of villains. He is awesome because his opponents are awesome.


Well, mostly awesome.

For the Gothic story, the villains are as important as they are to any story. Maybe even more so, because you're dealing with emotional themes of fear and grief, which encourages a level of hostility at some point. But Gothic villains aren't just about having shticks, they are about the antagonism itself. Dracula isn't the villain because he's a vampire with cool powers, he's the villain because he NTRs John Harker's wife. Now, you can be sad that we live in a world where “NTR” is a word, but you'll have to take that up with japan.



Gothic enemies aren't mad doctors, disdainful priests, and sensuous vampires; they are aloof father figures, disdainful authority figures, and sensuous romantic rivals. Fucking hell. They aren't antagonists because they are wearing Victorian outfits, they are antagonists because they are structurally opposed to you. They are wearing Victorian outfits because it's the Victorian era and that is what people wear; and you hate and fear them because they actively work towards your destruction (whether metaphorically or actually). So naturally, the first page of the Antagonists chapter has “The Doctor/Scientist” and “The Priest.”

Fuck this book.



The Doctor/Scientist is supposed to be like Abraham Van Helsing or Victor Frankenstein. But while Victor Frankenstein is the antagonist (and narrator!) of The Modern Prometheus, Van Helsing is not the antagonist of Dracula. Dracula is the antagonist of Dracula. If Dracula hadn't run around murdering and sexually conquering the loved ones of the protagonists, Abraham Van Helsing would have never gotten involved. But the bottom line is that Victor Frankenstein isn't the antagonist because he's a man of science, he's the antagonist because he's Adam's father and seeks to destroy him because he has rejected his offspring. It's a story about parental rejection, and the equivalent antagonist in Vampire: the Masquerade is the vampire who turned your character, not some random mad scientist NPC. Over and over again, this book opts for the most superficial possible analysis and presentation.

AncientH:

The generic block stats they give for these guys doesn't help much, either. The doctor/scientist has, for example, the awe-inspiring Linguistics (Latin) 1 and Firearms 1, and a "sliver [sic]-headed walking stick," holy wafers, and a small pistol. He is not a threat. He is not a threat to a ghoul. He is not a threat to a ghouled squirrel. Bunnicula would fuck this guy up like the killer rabbit from Monty Python.


You laugh, but this rabbit is the ghoul of a 4th-generation methusalah that lairs in that cave, guarding her master during the daylight hours, and has Potence 5.

This is pretty indicative of the Vampire mindset: most mortals suck. Most vampires are either crippled or massively overpowered, and all are poorly designed. Part of the problem is that no-one rolls the dice to see if they guys can actually accomplish anything, but another part of the problem is that the powers that the Vampire writers think are powerful and impressive generally...aren't. A vampire with maxed out Potence still takes lethal damage from a bullet to the brain. A Tremere's fireball is generally less effective than a well-placed crossbow bolt (and that's assuming you don't need to roll Rotschreck when you throw said fireball). It's not just that the disciplines are unbalanced, but the writers rarely if every considered that those disciplines existed in a world with more - and sometimes better - options.

FrankT:

True Faith in Vampire is pretty dumb. The idea is that people who have strong and pure belief can keep vampires away with the torch of their faith. So like repelling vampires with crosses in a Hammer horror movie, but in a non-denominational way. That's a reasonable enough way to model repelling Christopher Lee with a cross. It doesn't commit you to any particular theology and passes the smell test on first and second pass.


I mean, assuming you want to model this scene at all.

The problem comes in with who gets it. In order to rock the True Faith, you need to have a high humanity rating. So you have to be reasonably sinless. Which probably sounds reasonable to people who are of a generally religious bent. But what that means is that the people who have True Faith are innocents, not people who go out and fight vampires by choice. Even choosing to go fight anything means your Humanity is too low to qualify for True Faith. But White Wolf authors were consistently incapable of wrapping their minds around that, and kept wanting to give True Faith (and the high humanity values it required) to “Witch Hunters” and other people who took the fight to the vampires. Which made for a somewhat interesting tactical encounter, but made no sense in world. To maintain a Humanity of 8 or more, you'd need to avoid accidental injury to others. Which obviously you couldn't maintain if you hunted fucking anything. Witches or otherwise.


These assholes should not have True Faith according to the definitions provided by this setting. But for no damn reason, they do. Also this movie is terrible, not unlike this book.

What this represents is a fundamental failure of vision. True Faith havers were originally envisioned as beatific, and fundamentally passive characters. But then later on they decided they wanted to use the mechanics for exorcist monks even though it didn't fit at all.

AncientH:

The Arcanum is an occult society of mortals that study the supernatural, ripped off completely from the Talamasca created by Anne Rice for her Vampire Chronicles. I think they actually work well for a Vampire campaign, because they're the type of people that would be actively seeking to discover if vampires exist and so the Elders might worry that they would blow the Masquerade, but you don't want to kill them all because that would just excite greater interest. They're the type of people that would dig up two portraits of the same vampire 600 years apart and ferret out their current identity, so they can be personal antagonists in addition to existential ones.

"Agents of the Queen" are a group of Victorian spies and thugs employed by Dr. William Gull in the pursuit of defending the Queen, the Royal Family, and England ("In that order") from the supernatural. Fair enow. You might recognize Gull as the major antagonist of Alan Moore's From Hell, as the possible identity of Jack the Ripper.


There are worse sources to draw from.

I actually kind of like the idea, though I sort of wish there were some more substantial goals for Gull & co., like securing an artifact that would ban all vampires from Britain or something.


In the Marvel Universe, after Van Helsing was ambushed and killed by Dracula, in accordance with his last wishes his skull was enchanted to extend the "Vampires cannot enter your house uninvited" to cover all of Britain. It's a nifty concept.

FrankT:

One thing that is sadly typical of White Wolf games in general is the absolutely unbelievable amount of stat inflation among NPCs. As a starting character, you don't get a lot of dots to assign places. And you'd think that would mean that having just a few dots means that you're competent at a task. And this is... not really born out when you look at NPC stats. In book after book they present like random beat cops and electricians and shit who have a whole fuck tonne more dots than you do. I think the authors had been trundling along with their same characters since 1992, and a decade later they had maximized everything and routinely lorded it over NPCs who “only” rolled 8-10 dice at a task. And they just sort of forgot that the actual characters that real people in the real world have in a new game aren't anything like that and it's emasculating and insulting to have your vampire specialist character get shown up in his field of specialty by Unnamed NPC #7. This book is kinda off the hook as far as that goes. The Apprentice Wizard has 29 dots of stats and 12 dots of discipline equivalents. You get 24 and 3 respectively. He's a fucking Apprentice and is probably as good with his fourth best spell as you are with your One Big Trick.

Usually but not always younger mages, apprentices are individuals who, through whatever channels or rituals appeal to them, have but recently embarked upon their eldritch journey. An apprentice is a warlock who has learned but a handful of spells from a musty and ancient tome, a shaman who knows how to speak to the weakest spirits only or a worker of will who has just come into his unasked-for power.

This asshole has as much magic mojo as your entire coterie combined. And it only goes up from there. The “Driven Shade” has Dominate 5. The Fae Trickster has 24 dots of Disciplines, and has four dots in as many disciplines as you have dots to allocate to all of your disciplines together. To find an enemy that you're unambiguously better than, you need to go all the way down to the “vengeful relative.”


This bereaved old woman is about the limit of what your characters can handle.

AncientH:

It is also worth mentioning that in keeping with standard White Wolf fashion, instead of using the other World of Darkness books and stats for werewolves, mages, changelings, and wraiths, they use Vampire-style Disciplines and blood pools to represent their abilities...at least, whenever the writers don't get fucking creative and bust out new bullshit mechanics to mimic abilities that someone else already wrote up.

The nominal logic behind this is that you don't have to buy the other White Wolf books to include werewolves in your Vampire campaign. Any sprawling product line runs into the problem that at some point the amount of books you need to invest in to work out what an NPC's stats mean is too much - it's why in D&D canned adventures they (generally) avoid prestige classes and feats from obscure supplements. You default down to the main rulebook because that's what everybody has.

On the other hand, that means that the NPCs presented in vampire books don't really represent the abilities of Mages in Mage: the Ascension or Werewolves in Werewolf: the Apocalypse. Which means it actually gets harder to run crossover games and just makes a lot of confusion. But nobody cares.

FrankT:

The latter half of the chapter loses interest in giving stats to enemies at all. We get a few immature thoughts on secret societies and how you might come into conflict with the Stone Cutters or the Bad Moonz. I'm not really sure how that's supposed to work. I don't think the authors know how it's supposed to work. They suggest that the Masons might take over a city from vampire control, but there's not a real discussion of how that happen or what it would mean.



I get how you do this in INWO or something, the Fraternal Orders use their action to attempt to control a group that the Vampires control and action cards get played and stuff happens. Fine. But how that's supposed to work in the game is something I don't know. Are they going to go through all the pillars of power, getting all the people who are addicted to vampire blood fired? How? Why? If important people joined the Masons, how would that impact the extent to which they had been brain scrambled by vampiric domination or
hooked on V?

The way Masonic influence spreads is pretty much completely different from the way Vampire influence spreads, and I don't understand how they are supposed to meaningfully interact with each other, much less come into conflict in a way you cared about. The Masons get all the important people in town to sit around drinking beer together. Then, because powerful people cannot meet for diversion without the conversation ending in a conspiracy against the public, powerful conspiracies are made. Vampires expand their influences by personally suborning individuals through the direct domination of their mind or the powerful compulsion of blood bonding. Vampires do not care if people are getting into meeting halls, wearing funny hats, and discussing price floors for cheese. It simply doesn't fucking matter.


Can't we all just agree to party together in a room and drink blood?

AncientH:

If a vampire finds their political machinations conflicting with freemasons, they go Dominate and/or blood bond the head freemason. No worries, problem solved. So freemasons as an opponent only works if you give them sufficient influence, resources, and knowledge that you as a vampire cannot walk up to the leader, twist their head off, and drink. They could make this interesting by having the Freemasons be an offshoot of the Cainite Heresy with a sorcerous equivalent of the Viniculum to break/prevent blood bonds and maybe the higher-ups in the order are actually free ghouls - that makes things interesting! But Vampire never quite gets that far in its thinking, because frankly it just never thinks these things through.

FrankT:

Basically I look at this chapter as failing in every practical way it is possible for such things to fail. I don't feel that the authors understood the purpose of an antagonist in a Gothic story or in a table top roleplaying game of personal horror. Also I don't think they understood what the numbers on their character sheets meant or what enemies could be doing in the world that the player characters might care about.

AncientH:

I'm just going to go on the record that whoever wrote the section on the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn fucked up the research very badly indeed.



At least when Mike Mignola does a Victorian-age cult, he gives them some fragment of the Truth, some interesting resources, motivation, goals, and personalities. Vampire...devolves to very vague archetypes. For fuck's sake, the final two "antagonists" are "The Serial Killer" and "The Evil Twin." Now, Jack the Ripper is overused but fair game, but "The Evil Twin?" Seriously? Even the Gothic novels generally didn't go in for those. That's some soap opera level shit right there.



Fuck this book.

FrankT:

Next up: Afterwords. Theirs and Ours.