Unnamed bonuses break the game(and most named ones too).

[User3]

Unnamed bonuses are designed to break the game. They really are. They are, by design, supposed to stack with as many other unnamed and non-duplicated named bonuses that you can stuff into your pants.

Why did they do that?

If the cleric/archer's massive stacks of bonuses from his buff spells were instead changed to "divine" bonuses, this unintentionally broken combo would not exist (and, of course, the "get a new BAB" spells would have to not mess with BABs and become flat divine pluses to attack rolls).

If fighters were not slaves to the Str + Greater/Weapon Focus + Magic + Magic items stacking trap, we could have different kinds of fighters like:

A The skilled guy: Dread Pirate Roberts
B. The strong guy: Conan
C. The guy who has magic weapons/armor: King Arthur
D. The magicked-up guy: Darth Vader/Luke

Right now, you can't make Conan a viable character. He looses 10 points off his AC for no full plate/shield (not counting an additional potential +10 for stacking magic bonuses), or a Darth Vader guy, or a skill guy.

Stacking bonuses to caster level creates the "Wand of Death knell/herd of cattle" +50 to caster level spell effects, or the Ioun Stones of kicking your ass.

People even want the broken cheese of Polymorph to stack with the broken equipment cheese and their own base stats.

Really, its enough!

Stacking bonuses may have worked using only the core rules, but if you allow all the 3.0 supplements, the 3.5, and the world supplements, a little research can let you go all crazy all the time.

[Username17]

Unnamed bonuses are designed to break the game. They really are. They are, by design, supposed to stack with as many other unnamed and non-duplicated named bonuses that you can stuff into your pants.

Why did they do that?

So that each situational bonus is itself its own unique situation. If you didn't have unnamed bonuses, you'd need a "Flanking Bonus" and a "Opponent Prone Bonus", and a "Higher Ground Bonus" and all that other crap. Or worse, you'd have to assign some other cool sounding name to such things and then you'd periodically have to remember that "Opponent prone" simply produced a larger "Taller" bonus than "Higher Ground" did and they didn't stack.

In short, applying names to many of the currently "unnamed" bonuses would make the game more difficult and periodically make stupid crap happen.

If the cleric/archer's massive stacks of bonuses from his buff spells were instead changed to "divine" bonuses, this unintentionally broken combo would not exist (and, of course, the "get a new BAB" spells would have to not mess with BABs and become flat divine pluses to attack rolls).

Those spells are already named bonuses, and currently the only way to get a "Divine Bonus" to most things is to be a God. As is, it's not even important if you make most of those not stack, because they'd stack anyway. Divine Favor adds to attack rolls, Divine Power adds to Attack Bonus, and Divine Grace adds to Dexterity. They all add to your ranged attacks, but they actually add to separate quantities which happen to be themselves added together when you fire a bow. The fact that currently one is a luck bonus, one is an enhancement bonus, and one is unnamed doesn't even matter - technically they don't even add to the same thing for there to be a question of stacking or not.

If fighters were not slaves to the Str + Greater/Weapon Focus + Magic + Magic items stacking trap, we could have different kinds of fighters like:
...
Right now, you can't make Conan a viable character. He looses 10 points off his AC for no full plate/shield (not counting an additional potential +10 for stacking magic bonuses), or a Darth Vader guy, or a skill guy.

That's such total horse shit that I'm surprised it came out of your mouth. The problem here isn't stacking, or anything so very simple. The reason that being naked sucks is because there are abilties that let you fight without armor, and there are abilities to fight in armor. The abilities to fight in armor are free, and the abilities to fight without armor are not. And the abilties to fight in armor are better besides.

It doesn't make any difference whether you have stacking rules or not - in fact, people who fight without armor actually have an extra slot lying around the house, and thus your complaint should predict that the naked people would inherit the earth. They don't, because the rules happen to grant no meaningful benefits to dudes in loin cloths. That's it, and it's an entirely different problem.

---

The "stacking issue" isn't even an issue. The issue is that bonuses derived from different sources are not even mathematically similar to each other. Wearing armor is better than going skins. Divine Favor is better than other sources of Luck. And so on and so forth.

If bonuses gained from different sources were similar in their magnitude, then there'd be no need to comb through anything to find the best version of each one, because whichever one you got would be similar in magnitude and you could just let it ride. But they aren't. The bonuses are of radically different size when gained from a class feature and a Divine Spell, when gained from a Magic Item and a Feat, etc. etc..

And that's the problem. The reason that your naked guy isn't viable is not because there are armor bonuses to be had that stack with other things - you can get a Wisdom bonus instead if you really want. The reason your naked guy isn't viable is because the armor bonus is cheaper and superior to the wisdom bonus.

The problem is not proliferation of bonus types, it's inequalities within established bonus types.

-Username17

[User3]

So that each situational bonus is itself its own unique situation. If you didn't have unnamed bonuses, you'd need a "Flanking Bonus" and a "Opponent Prone Bonus", and a "Higher Ground Bonus" and all that other crap.

The point is to get rid of the stacking bonuses. Why can't you just have a "circumstance bonus" that doesn't stack with itself for all those combat situations. Really, isn't the prone bonus really just a bigger "higher ground" bonus (since any situation where you'd get the "defender prone" bonus you'd almost always also automatically get the "higher ground" bonus since you are standing over your opponent). Why is flanking different from than being invisible(both situations where the defender loses his Dex mod), and why can you do both?

Stupid stuff happens right now. Do we even have to talk about the flanked barbarian with his eyes closed example?

As is, it's not even important if you make most of those not stack, because they'd stack anyway. Divine Favor adds to attack rolls, Divine Power adds to Attack Bonus, and Divine Grace adds to Dexterity. They all add to your ranged attacks, but they actually add to separate quantities which happen to be themselves added together when you fire a bow.

Right. If there weren't three different stats that provided stacking bonuses to attacking with ranged weapons, you couldn't have three spells that stacked together.

Add in the number of named and unnamed bonuses that add to those three stats, and the number of ways to break the system boggle the mind.

Right now, the design of the game rewards the guy who aquires each and every stacking bonus the game could possiblity grant, unnamed or not, and penalizes the guy who doesn't. Even if all the possible mods were priced the same, the guy who put them all in his pants at the same time would make the guy who didn't cry.

While some people are looking for the "best" or "cheapest/most efficient," its often just as easy to get "every damn one that works," because the system rewards massive inbalances. The cleric archer is the exemplar: a character concept that is superior to any fighting class based on the fact that it can apply bonuses from multiple sources to multiple stats to create an unstoppable Devestator of DnD stacking mods/stats.

[Sma]

But would´nt having no boni stack end up similarily weird ?

Should being strong and large people not be better at pushing things over than some big weakling or a tiny strongman ?
Or the awkward high level Fighter being as good at flicking knives as the equally high level extremely dextrous one ?

While I agree that some of the bonus types are simply going overboard, I don´t think removing stacking completely will solve more problems than it would create. And as long as there are different stacking boni you will get people going pokemon on them.

Sma

[Username17]

Why is flanking different from than being invisible(both situations where the defender loses his Dex mod), and why can you do both?

I don't even know where to begin, but I'll try:

1> Flanking doesn't cause your opponent to lose a dex bonus, it just grants a +2 to-hit.
2> Being invisible (and using 3e, any time your opponent can't see you with a targetting sense), also gives a +2, but also negates their Dex bonus and gives you substantial defensive bonuses.

Flanking is not "they are looking the other way", and it has nothing whatever to do with sight or not. Grimlocks still get flanked, and the ability to fight without being flanked is much higher level than the ability to fight effectively with your eyes closed.

Your pipe dream about just having one modifier that you actually use and throwing all other things on the scrap heap is completely retarded. It would eliminate all tactics and leave us with "War" - you'd just search through books until you found the biggest modifier available and then doing absolutely anything else would be a waste of time.

Basically you'd just have the Armor vs. Skins problem all over again - some modifier would be bigger, and therefore better than the other available modifiers for that slot only there'd only be one fvcking slot. So when the Cleric Archer had the biggest Luck Bonus, that would just be the biggest total bonus and everone else would wander the lands emasculated like their limp cocks.

Except they wouldn't even do that much because they wouldn't even exist. Essentially you'd be offering people the ability to play as Aces, Kings, Queens or Jacks. Once reduced to such simple terms, why the fvck would anyone ever choose to play a Jack?

The crux of your argument is that once you blind your opponent there shouldn't be any advantage to you in having your friends team up on them to stab them from multiple angles and maybe yell to confuse them a bit. That's the dumbest argument I have ever heard from anyone, ever. It makes no sense from a "realism" standpoint (since that's how you take maximum advantage of sensory deprivation in an enemy). It makes no sense from a game play stanpoint (since it encourages boring tactics, essentially removing position from consideration in most insances). And it makes no sense from a game design standpoint (since it encourages a monoculture of characters the likes of which haven't been around since Tunnels and Trolls, the game with only one meaningful stat).

This is like the WotC Boards argument that for Elves to "feel like Elves" (a statement which is inherently meaningless), they needed to be fundamentally superior in all ways to other playable races. That was a dumber argument, but this is really damn close.

You've made this argument before, and you've never gotten any takers because it's stupid.

Stupid stuff happens right now. Do we even have to talk about the flanked barbarian with his eyes closed example?

The Barbarian With His Eyes Closed doesn't happen because of the rules, it happens because Skip Williams made a house rule of exactly the bullshit you are spouting. The only reason the BWEC crap ever happens is when you try to rationalize Flanking and Invisibility as some sort of named "impeded defense bonus" rather than just leaving them as unnamed bonuses.

As printed, there is no Barbarian With Eyes Closed problem. At all. Invisibility and Flanking are different, unnamed bonuses, and they stack, so the Barbarian gains nothing at all from closing his damn eyes. When we institute condensation of unnamed bonuses - exactly like the ones you are talking about - then we instantly get Barbarian With Eyes Closed stupidity.

As Skip's Ill-fated rant about Flanking and Invisibility aptly demonstrate.

-Username17

[RandomCasualty]

Ironically, all the problems you're pointing out here have nothing to do with unnamed bonuses, and getting rid of them wouldn't solve anything.

Fighter types: The reason you can't have a non-strength fighter is because there aren't enough strength replacement feats. Basically you need some kind of feat that lets you give up your strength bonus to hit and damage and gain som kind of precision based damage bonus, probably that wouldn't work on creatures not vulnerable to criticals. That'd make a dex fighter somewhat viable.

As for King Arthur, I think it's stupid to have someone's entire fighting capability be defined by their sword, and that seems to be exactly what you want to do. It makes little sense that the skill of the guy weilding it doesn't factor in at all. And consequently "the guy who has magic weapons/armor" applies to everyone in D&D at high levels. Having it penalize you because you spent your feats on weapon focus is pretty stupid.

The cleric archer and the flanking thing were handled quite well by Frank, so I won't even bother getting into those.

And the way to solve it isn't making nothing stack. Making nothing stack would pretty much invalidate everything at high levels.

The real fix is to simply cut down on the number of bonueses, and only have things like feats and circumstances grant unnamed bonuses. As for spells, they can only grant one type of bonus to each stat. Magic items would also grant that same thing, and other typed bonuses would be PrC abilities, or other miscellaneous special stuff.

But basically as long as you say magic items and spells grant only one kind of bonus you don't have a problem with people trying to "catch em all" because there just aren't that many to catch, and you don't have the ability to create items with nonstandard bonuses, at all. If the only bonuses you have to choose from for AC are a ring of protection, a set of bracers or a suit of magic armor, then it's going to cut things down considerably.

[Sma]

1091714561[/unixtime]]
But basically as long as you say magic items and spells grant only one kind of bonus you don't have a problem with people trying to "catch em all" because there just aren't that many to catch, and you don't have the ability to create items with nonstandard bonuses, at all. If the only bonuses you have to choose from for AC are a ring of protection, a set of bracers or a suit of magic armor, then it's going to cut things down considerably.

Catching them all was badly phrased, I agree. You´d end up with everyone clambering after the best item which would much easier to identify due to less different boni.
I´ll try to be more clear the next time.

Sma

[User3]

The tactics argument is ass. People already do everything they can to get the biggest bonus(or give the enemy the most penalties). They are not going to stop trying to get the biggest bonus whether it stacks or not. They will, however, be limited to just how stupid they can get. Really, most of the tactical bonuses (and penalties) exist so that people can feel justified that they spent time and money on a mat and minis. Flanking is completely arbitrary (since the game supposedly doesn't use facings) and it doesn't represent "ganging up" on anyone since you have to form a magic line on the battlemat to make it work.

Really, rather than have dozens of named bonuses and hundreds of unnamed ones, why can we just have BAB (which can't be replaced) and your largest bonus from magic, Strength/Dex, or Focus, and add in a single non-stacking tactical bonus.

AC could be an armor/natural bonus(nonstacking) plus your largest "dodge/magic" bonus. Bonuses/penalties to AC are irrelevant if attackers get tactical bonuses/penalties to hit guys.

[RandomCasualty]

1091723147[/unixtime]]
Really, rather than have dozens of named bonuses and hundreds of unnamed ones, why can we just have BAB (which can't be replaced) and your largest bonus from magic, Strength/Dex, or Focus, and add in a single non-stacking tactical bonus.

AC could be an armor/natural bonus(nonstacking) plus your largest "dodge/magic" bonus. Bonuses/penalties to AC are irrelevant if attackers get tactical bonuses/penalties to hit guys.

I fail to see any purpose in this. For one, you're totally dextrous characters on AC, because they have no natural armor or armor, you're making weapon focus totally suck, as well as magic items. I mean why bother with a magic sword if your 22 strength already gives you the best bonus you can get until epic?

All your system does is create purely singleminded characters. You pick one stat and you whore it, much like a spellcasting character does everything he can to his spellcasting stat. Not only that, you're totally hosing fighters because they don't get their strength bonus and weapon focus at the same time.

So people now just make barbarians that try to max out strength anyway possible and anyone who doesn't do just that, like a sword master or a balanced character, gets hosed completely. People have to be totally extreme in whatever they do, or they get hosed.

The fact is that if you negate primary bonus stacking, then people just move onto stacking secondary bonuses. Ok, so my strength and my magic weapon don't stack, I'll just put all my money into a magic item that increases my strength.

the problem isn't that bonuses stack, it's that there are too many bonus types. If someone wants to pay gold to improve their AC they should have one basic option and can choose how powerful they want it. And that way there is no mixing an matching. You don't have people weighing a ring of protection +2 versus an amulet of natural armor +1 and a ring +1, because they simply dont have that choice anymore, but they do have enough meaningful choices that they can define reasonably character archetypes that aren't crazy extremes like The hulk, Sir weapon focus, and Mr.magic sword.

[Username17]

the problem isn't that bonuses stack, it's that there are too many bonus types.

Even that's not a problem. The problem is that bonuses aren't the same size from similar expenditures. The fact that it costs 25,000 gp for a +5 shield enhancement bonus and 50,000 gp for a +5 deflection bonus is basically the heart and soul of the entire problem with bonus accumulation.

K's pathetic ramblings aside, removing or even restricting the stacking of bonuses is simply not the way to go - as the Barbarian with Eyes Closed aptly demonstrates. No, everything should stack. If you get another +1 bonus, it should always mean that you have another +1, it should never mean that you get nothing because you have a similarly named bonus from something else.

Having two people invest the same in something and have one of them walk away with +1 and another walk away with +0 is the definition of imbalance. As long as the rate of bonus collection is roughly equivalent between characters with similar investment, then that's all we need. Getting hung up about what bonuses are called, or trying to get people to turn their character into some kind of retarded mono-dimensional charicature is missing the point entirely.

-Username17

[RandomCasualty]

1091727779[/unixtime]]
Even that's not a problem. The problem is that bonuses aren't the same size from similar expenditures. The fact that it costs 25,000 gp for a +5 shield enhancement bonus and 50,000 gp for a +5 deflection bonus is basically the heart and soul of the entire problem with bonus accumulation.

Well, that doesn't actually mean so much as the ring of protection +2 versus two +1 items. It'd be okay to have a more expensive bonus that counts toward incorporeal touch attacks, because you're at least paying for something.

K's pathetic ramblings aside, removing or even restricting the stacking of bonuses is simply not the way to go - as the Barbarian with Eyes Closed aptly demonstrates. No, everything should stack. If you get another +1 bonus, it should always mean that you have another +1, it should never mean that you get nothing because you have a similarly named bonus from something else.

That's not the way to go either, because then you run into the guy running around with 20 slotless items of protection +1 for 4,000 apeice, and the linear cost of +1 to AC is only 4,000 GP. So somebody with 400,000 gp to burn at epic could get a +100 to AC, and that'd get really insane.

Basically the whole point is that getting a +2 bonus is more expensive than a +1 or two +1s, and it has to work that way because gold gain is geometric, not linear. So item costs can't be linear otherwise the bonuses run away into crazy land, and that isn't what you want either.

The idea should be to preserve the geometric item cost scale by having all items work on the same bonus instead of allowing people to get around the geometric scale by using different bonuses. Because item costs are fine up until the point some guy wants to make 6 items of varying +1 bonuses instead of a +6 item.

[User3]

Getting hung up about what bonuses are called, or trying to get people to turn their character into some kind of retarded mono-dimensional charicature is missing the point entirely.

Ummm, that's what we have now.

Really, every fighter has as big as Strength and/or Dex as he can get, the biggest nagic weapon he can get, as many focus feats as he can get, and only a few style choices(charger, two- handed power attacker, archer) make any difference at all.

Honestly, if you walked into a game with a 10th level Dread Pirate Roberts fighter character with a 14 Strength and Dex 20 and Weapon Finesse with a nonmagical rapier, people would throw you out of the game because as a fighter you'd suck like a $2 'ho'.

Fighters are stat-whores. Across the board, they look the same, concentrate on the same feats and stats, get the same classes, and even the "special" PrC abilities do nearly identical things (and classes like the Duelist are fatally flawed because they don't).

If nothing stacked, you could have a fighter with a "dark magic" bonus to hit and have him compete evenly with the strength guy and the "skill/focus" guy and magic weapon guy and the "rage bonus" guy and "holyness in my pants" paladin guy and the "secret of the woods: ranger guy.

Right now, none of those concepts are workable under the system.

[RandomCasualty]

Ummm, that's what we have now.

No, that's not what we have now. Right now, people are encouraged to get lots of different stuff for their characters and they can specifically specialize in something too. Under your system there is no reason for a barbarian to ever get a magic weapon, or ever pick up weapon focus or anything, all he cares about is singleminded strength pumping, and that's it. He puts every point he gets toward strength, he puts every dollar he gets toward getting belts of strength, and his ultimate goal is to acquire Thor's everfull bottle of steroids.

That's the kinds of characters your system encourages.

1091740661[/unixtime]]
Honestly, if you walked into a game with a 10th level Dread Pirate Roberts fighter character with a 14 Strength and Dex 20 and Weapon Finesse with a nonmagical rapier, people would throw you out of the game because as a fighter you'd suck like a $2 'ho'.

And he wouldn't suck in your system equally bad? He would have no basic armor bonus and he would only be getting his small dodge bonus and that's it. And just because the attack bonuses of everyone else won't be as large, Conan is still going to be outdamaging him heavily. This guy would suck just as bad, if not worse.

[User3]

weapon, or ever pick up weapon focus or anything, all he cares about is singleminded strength pumping, and that's it. He puts every point he gets toward strength, he puts every dollar he gets toward getting belts of strength, and his ultimate goal is to acquire Thor's everfull bottle of steroids.

Thor's Everfull Bottle of Steroids(tm) wouldn't stack with the belt of strength, and multiple belts wouldn't stack with each other or the bottle.

You see, you are addicted to stacking.

The game would be better off if a Conan-type guy just got a level dependant bonus to Str., and all this "and if I take two levels of this class and one level of that one, and take these three crap feats to get into this class meant for clerics, I can have a +2323 to hit and rule the world!!! Ha, ha, ha!"

He can get a magic sword. Except for the +X to hit/damage property, the other 50 possible enchantments on a magic sword can be quite useful to him.

And he wouldn't suck in your system equally bad? He would have no basic armor bonus and he would only be getting his small dodge bonus and that's it. And just because the attack bonuses of everyone else won't be as large, Conan is still going to be outdamaging him heavily. This guy would suck just as bad, if not worse.

The example is for a 3.X game to show how there is no variety in fighter concepts in the current system. If my system were inplemented, the Dex fighter would be gaining more Dex per level and so by level 10 have enough Dex to basically have level approprate armor.

The concept works because the Dex fighter would be good at hitting with with ranged and select melee weapons(and he can power attack), while the Conan guy would only have the ability to hit and do a lot of damage only in melee.

The AC would also be scaled so that some kinds of fighters gained a level dependant AC for good Dex, while others gained it for "dark mojo" or "magic armor proficiency" or any other damned thing.

Dex armor is cancelled by surprise or immobility, magic armor by sundering or armor piercing feats, and "dark mojo" is cancelled by "holy crap" like clerical turn attempts, prayers by the faithful, Circle of Protection vs Evil, holy water or ground, paladin excrement, etc.

For the character that suddenly wants to turn their magic armor fairy princess into a naked on a horse princess, you could have a feat to expand your magic armor bonus into a "stark raving naked" bonus that only works when you are unclothed. Then you'd have your level appropriate AC bonus when wearing magic armor or when not wearing clothes and only holding a weapon. Your "stark raving naked" bonus could be cancelled by concealing 50% of the character's skin.

[Username17]

Thor's Everfull Bottle of Steroids(tm) wouldn't stack with the belt of strength, and multiple belts wouldn't stack with each other or the bottle.

Unless the Belt gave a bonus to your enhancement bonus to strength... There is an infinite number of levels of iterations of bonuses applicable whether stacking exists or not. You have a shield bonus, you have an enhancement bonus to the shield bonus - in essence you ahve two bonuses applying to AC, but you still only have one bonus to AC - te Shield Bonus. The other bonus doesn't change your AC at all, and is thus not hindered by the removal of stacking.

Your idiotic "Aces and Deuces" set-up doesn't even stop people from collecting a bunch of obscure bonuses, which is the whole point of you wanting to make sure that there is no reason to be strong and skilled and aided by magic at the same time.

The game would be better off if a Conan-type guy just got a level dependant bonus to Str., and all this "and if I take two levels of this class and one level of that one...

So you're saying that the game would be better if we weren't allowed to have character developement and just had a number which represented how awesome our character was?

Why even have a game system at that point? Seriously, we could all just state that our characters were "totally awesome" and play Munchausen. Since nothing you do matters, and your entire character is defined by a giant number - it would save time to dispense with the numbers altogether since they aren't ever different or meaningful.

The example is for a 3.X game to show how there is no variety in fighter concepts in the current system.

Even you admitted that there were Two-handers, Mounted Knights, and Archers - add to that Reach Fighters and Shield Fighters and you have five viable and different styles of combat available. Your system has only one, because there is absolutely no difference between any of the combat styles at all. So you would take our (admittedly insufficient) variety and divide it by five.

How is that supposed to be a step in the right direction?

-Username17

[User3]

Frank, your addiction to stacking has muddled your ability to recall...

why can we just have BAB (which can't be replaced) and your largest bonus from magic, Strength/Dex, or Focus, and add in a single non-stacking tactical bonus.

AC could be an armor/natural bonus(nonstacking) plus your largest "dodge/magic" bonus. Bonuses/penalties to AC are irrelevant if attackers get tactical bonuses/penalties to hit guys.

Under this system, the difference between fighters becomes not the stats, but the bonuses from tactics and the crap that happens when you use any maneuvers you get off of feats, skills, or creativity. You are dead wrong when you say "Aces and Dueces."

Dead and stupidly wrong.

Thousands of character concepts become possible when the player isn't worried about stacking his sandcastle stats into a pile and hoping they don't fall down. You can have fighters that don't use shields be and not be down 7 points of AC and or melee fighters that don't need to be stronger than Fire Giants just to stay remotely competitive.

You can have fighters that can fight at all without their extra special, "spent all my gold" sword and armor.

Basically, its using abilities that makes this game fun, not smashing your enemies with big numbers. Focusing character concepts on "and now get a +2 from this, and +1 from that, and I pull this +2 out of my @ss" makes a boring character to play against or with.

Monsters are big stat blocks to make them simple to run and remember. PCs need to be more complex to be worth the time.

[Username17]

Under this system, the difference between fighters becomes not the stats, but the bonuses from tactics and the crap that happens when you use any maneuvers you get off of feats, skills, or creativity. You are dead wrong when you say "Aces and Dueces."

What fvcking tactics? You've already said that hiding from an enemy won't stack with double-teaming an enemy, so what possible incentive is there to use tactics? Just as you only have one bonus, you also only have one tactic - the thing that happens to give you the biggest bonus.

So you claim it's "one bonus" - but really it's three bonuses: Level + Your Coolness + Your Personal Technique Modifier.

Woo. Remind me again: what's the fvcking point here?

The problem is that some set-ups are not viable because they give bonuses which are numerically inferior to other set-ups requiring similar character investment. In what way is this even addressed by reducing the number of bonuses your set-up can benefit from at one time? You haven't even begun to address how your "system" is helpful in any way.

Thousands of character concepts become possible when the player isn't worried about stacking his sandcastle stats into a pile and hoping they don't fall down.

No they don't. Thousands of character concepts don't mean shit because they don't do anything. You have a number which represents how cool you are, and unless you've addressed the actual problem of bonuses being different sizes you've basically invalidated one and all character concepts which grant a bonus which is not "the biggest one". And if you have addressed that problem, all characters are identical.

So either all characters have the same number because there is a "best set-up" (which will be so easy to spot that everyone will be able to do it, because you can't even play D&D if you can't compare two numbers and figure out which is bigger) - or all set-ups are identical and thus all characters are the same regardless.

Seriously, you might as well just tell stories at that point, because one way or the other you haven't actually allowed for any difference at all between characters after the final shakedown.

---

There is no reason you should have to be a "dextrous fighter" or an "armored fighter". You should be able to play a "dextrous armored fighter" and have that mean something. And what it should mean is that some of your AC comes from being fast and some comes from being armored.

If you want balance, then you shouldn't get rid of multiple sources of benefit, you should get rid of scaling costs and bonus limits. If you really want people to be on an equal footing, it should cost the same amount of effort to get a new +1 Luck Bonus as it does to upgrade your current +1 Insight Bonus to +2. That necesitates the removal of gold as the source of magic items, but I think that's a given anyway.

People who want to be "Mr. Lucky" where all 23 points of AC come from a huge net Luck Bonus shouldn't need to invest any more or less than people who have a mixture of Luck, Insight, and Deflection bonuses which all together happen to total to 23.

You shouldn't punish hybrid character concepts, and you shouldn't punish focused character concepts. That means that there shouldn't be limits to how high any kind of bonus can get, and there shouldn't be cost incentives to diversify into new bonus types.

But it also means that you shouldn't go around trying to limit the number of different things people can benefit from. Your idea is retarded, end of fvcking story.

-Username17

[Draco_Argentum]

1091755061[/unixtime]]You can have fighters that don't use shields be and not be down 7 points of AC and or melee fighters that don't need to be stronger than Fire Giants just to stay remotely competitive.

If you can get the same AC as shield guy while useing your two handed beatstick why would anyone use a shield?

[User3]

What fvcking tactics? You've already said that hiding from an enemy won't stack with double-teaming an enemy, so what possible incentive is there to use tactics?

Tactics, mmm lets see....
--Disarms
--Sunders
--Trips
--Bull Rushes
--forcing the enemy to loose its Dex bonuses
--crazy stuff like cutting chandleirs or pushing over wardrobes onto people
--Feat tactics like:

Arterial Strike BAB +4, Sneak Attack +1d6 Sneak Attack deals -1d6 damage and bleeds for 1 damage/round until healed.

Deadly Precision Dex 15, BAB +5, Sneak Attack +1d6 You can reroll any initial results of 1 on your sneak attack extra damage dice.

Foe Specialist BAB +4, Sneak Attack +1d6 You deal +1d6 damage on sneak attacks vs. selected enemy type.

Hamstring BAB +4, Sneak Attack +2d6 Sneak Attack deals -2d6 damage and reduces opponent's base speed by half.

Scramble Dex 15, Small size or smaller, Improved Evasion ability Reflex save (DC 10 + damage dealt) avoids a potentially fatal blow - 1/day.

Staggering Strike BAB +6, Sneak Attack +3d6 Sneak Attack staggers opponent for X rounds and does -(3xX)d6 damage. Armor Proficiency (Light) - Wear Light armor without attack penalties.

Blind-Fight - You reroll misses due to concealment, you receive only half the normal penalty to speed when blind, and invisible melee attackers gain no attack bonus against you.

- Blindsight, 5 ft. Radius Wis 19, BAB +4, Blind-Fight Darkness and invisibility are irrelevent within 5 ft. radius.

Chariot Combat Handle Animal 1 rank Handle Animal check negates hit to steed if it is higher than the attack result - 1/round.

- Chariot Archery Chariot Combat, Handle Animal 1 rank Penalty to ranged attacks when chariot is moving is halved.

- Chariot Trample Chariot Combat, Handle Animal 1 rank Opponents cannot avoid your chariot Overrun attempts and steed gets free hoof attack and chariot deals +2d6 damage if Overrun succeeds. Handle Animal check is required to avoid overturning the chariot.

- Chariot Sideswipe Chariot Combat, Handle Animal 1 rank Move before and after an attack during a chariot charge and Handle Animal check (DC 20) allows free sideswipe attack by chariot.

- - Chariot Charge Chariot Combat, Chariot Sideswipe, Handle Animal 1 rank Melee weapons deal double damage and lances deal triple damage during a chariot charge.

Charming the Arrow Fey Use your Cha bonus instead of Dex for ranged attacks.

Close-Quarters Fighting BAB +3 An attack of opportunity is allowed when an opponent attempts to grapple you. Dealing damage prevents the enemy from starting a grapple or applies as a bonus to the ensuing grapple check if the opponent has the Improved Grapple feat or Improved Grab ability.

- Overhead Thrust Close-Quarters Fighting, Power Attack, BAB +6 You can use a slashing or piercing weapon to make an attack of opportunity vs. an opponent who attempts to overrun, trample, power dive, crush, or use a similar attack against you if you are not flat-footed or grappled. It deals triple damage and you have a +4 attack bonus for each size category larger than Medium that the opponent is.

- Chink in the Armor Combat Expertise Standard action to study opponent allows you to ignore half his AC bonus from armor during your next attack.

- Deft Strike Int 13, Combat Expertise, Spot 10 ranks, sneak attack +1d6 Standard action Spot check allows you to ignore target's armor and natural armor bonuses to AC on next attack (DC = target's AC).

- Improved Disarm Int 13, Combat Expertise +4 bonus on opposed attack rolls to disarm opponents, you do not provoke an attack of opportunity during disarm attempts, and no free disarm attempt for opponent if yours fails.

- - Snatch Weapon Improved Disarm Allows you to catch disarmed weapons if you have a free hand and caught weapons can be used for 1 free off-hand attack.

- Improved Feint Int 13, Combat Expertise You can make a Bluff check to feint in combat as a standard action.

- Improved Trip Int 13, Combat Expertise +4 bonus on Str checks to trip opponents, you do not provoke an attack of opportunity during unarmed trip attempts, and gain free attack vs. opponent when trip attempt succeeds.

- - Defensive Throw Dex 13, Improved Trip, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Improved Unarmed Strike Allows free trip attempt vs. target of your Dodge feat as an attack of opportunity - only usable when opponent attacks you and misses.

- - Great Throw Dex 13, Improved Trip, Dodge, Improved Unarmed Strike, Combat Reflexes Unarmed trip attacks deal damage equal to an unarmed strike, tripped opponent lands in space of your choice that you threaten, and your free attack from Improved Trip is cancelled.

- - Knock-Down Str 15, BAB +2, Improved Trip Melee attacks that deal 10 or more damage allow a free trip attempt.

- - Pebble Underfoot Int 13, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip +4 bonus on trip attempts vs. opponents at least 2 sizes larger and no free trip attempt for opponent if yours fails.

- Karmic Strike Dex 13, Combat Expertise, Dodge -4 penalty on AC allows an attack of opportunity vs. any melee opponent who hits you.

- Sense Weakness Int 13, Combat Expertise, Weapon Focus You can ignore up to 5 points of damage reduction or hardness with weapons for which you have the Weapon Focus feat.

- Vicious Wound Combat Expertise, Wounding ability Wounding attacks bleed for +1 damage/round.

Combat Reflexes - Gain 1 extra attack of opportunity per point of Dex bonus and you can make them while flat-footed.

- Expert Tactician Dex 13, BAB +2, Combat Reflexes Gain 1 extra attack vs. melee opponent denied Dex bonus to AC.

- Hold the Line BAB +2, Combat Reflexes Allows an attack of opportunity vs. charging opponents who enter a square you threaten.

Cornered Rat Favored race, BAB +1 +2 bonus on attacks during the round after you make a Diplomacy check or an enemy makes an Intimidate check against you. Opponent is caught flat-footed (DC 10 Sense Motive check negates).

Daunting Presence Cha 13, BAB +1 Standard action causes opponents within 30 ft. who see you and have an Int score to become shaken for 10 minutes - Will save (DC 10 + Cha modifier +1/2 character levels) negates.

- Cumbrous Dodge Dodge, Tumble 4 ranks Allows +2 dodge bonus to AC, but causes fatigue after encounter.

- - Elusive Target BAB +6, Dodge, Mobility Allows the use of the negate power attack, diverting defense, and cause overreach tactical maneuvers.

- - Low Blow BAB +4, Dodge, Mobility Full-round action allows 1 attack vs. opponent larger than you, you provoke an attack of opportunity, and then opponent is flat-footed for the attack.

- - - Improved Low Blow BAB +4, Dodge, Mobility, Low Blow Low Blow attacks do not provoke an attack of opportunity.

- - Sidestep Dex 15, Dodge, Mobility, Tumble 8 ranks You can make a free 5-ft. step after an attack of opportunity - 1/round.

- - Spring Attack Dex 13, BAB +4, Dodge, Mobility Move before and after a melee attack and attacked opponent gains no attack of opportunity.

- - - Grasshopper Strike Dex 13; BAB +4; Dodge; Mobility; Spring Attack; Jump or Tumble 5 ranks Gain ability to take 10 on Jump and Tumble checks during combat.

- Dragon Hunter Bravery Wis 13, Dragon Hunter You and allies within 30 ft. are treated as if you have +4 HD and gain a +4 morale bonus on Will saves vs. the frightful presence ability of dragons.

- Dragon Hunter Defense Wis 13, Dragon Hunter You gain the evasion ability vs. dragon breath weapons and a +(1/2 character levels) bonus on saves vs. the supernatural and spell-like abilities of dragons.

- - Dragondoom Int 13, Dragonfoe, Dragonbane, BAB +10 The critical damage multipliers of your weapons become ((2 x original multiplier) -1) vs. dragons.

Eyes in the Back of Your Head Wis 19, BAB +3 Attackers gain no +2 flanking bonus against you as long as you retain your Dex bonus to AC.

Flyby Attack Fly speed Move before and after a standard action during flight.

- Adroit Flyby Attack Fly speed 90, Flyby Attack, Hover or Wingover Move before and after an attack action during flight and no attack of opportunity is provoked for flying through the target's threatened area.

- Great Flyby Attack Fly speed, Flyby Attack Attack up to (Dex bonus) targets during a flyby attack.

- Improved Flyby Attack Fly speed, Flyby Attack, Dodge, Mobility Provoke no attack of opportunity for flying through target's threatened area if your standard action is an attack.

Formation Expert BAB +6 Allows the use of the lock shields, step into the breach, and wall of polearms tactical maneuvers.

Frightful Presence Cha 13, Intimidate 9 ranks Opponents within 30 ft. with fewer levels than you become shaken for (1d6 + Cha modifier) rounds when you attack or charge (DC = 10 + 1/2 character level + Cha modifier).

Giantbane Medium or smaller size, BAB +6, Tumble 5 ranks Allows the use of the duck underneath, death from below, and climb aboard tactical maneuvers.

Goad Cha 13, BAB +1 Move action causes selected opponent that threatens you to make all of its melee attacks against you on its next turn - Will save (DC 10 + Cha modifier + 1/2 character levels) negates.

Headlong Rush Orc or half-orc, BAB +4 Charge attack provokes an attack of opportunity from defender and deals double damage - does not combine with Power Lunge feat.

Improved Critical BAB +8, Weapon Proficiency Double the critical threat range of selected weapon.

- Death Blow BAB +2, Improved Initiative Coup de grace attack is a standard action.

Improved Unarmed Strike - You do not provoke an attack of opportunity during unarmed attacks and dealing lethal damage causes no attack penalty.

- Circle Kick Dex 15, BAB +3, Improved Unarmed Strike Allows free attack vs. new opponent when 1st unarmed melee attack hits during a full attack action.

- Clever Wrestling Improved Unarmed Strike, size Small or Medium Bonus of +(2/size category larger than Medium that your opponent is) on grapple checks to escape a grapple or pin.

- - Cunning Sidestep Improved Unarmed Strike, Clever Wrestling, size Small or Medium Bonus from Clever Wrestling also applies on checks to avoid being bull rushed, tripped, knocked down, or pushed.

- Deflect Arrows Dex 13, Improved Unarmed Strike Ranged weapon that would normally hit you can be deflected 1/round if you have a free hand, are not flat-
footed, and are aware of the attack.

- - Grappling Block Int 13, Improved Unarmed Strike, Deflect Arrows, Combat Expertise, Improved Disarm, Combat Reflexes Successful disarm attempt negates 1 hit against you - 1/round.

- - Snatch Arrows Dex 15, Improved Unarmed Strike, Deflect Arrows Deflected thrown weapons can be thrown back at the attacker and deflected ammunition can be refired on your turn if you are wielding the appropriate weapon.

- Eagle Claw Attack Wis 13, Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Sunder You deal +(Wis bonus) damage on unarmed strikes vs. objects.

- Feign Weakness BAB +2, Improved Unarmed Strike Bluff check causes opponent to make an attack of opportunity vs. you, but you attack 1st and opponent is flat-footed. Tiny and Small weapons cause -2 or -4 penalty to Bluff check and disguised weapons cause none.

- Fists of Iron BAB +2, Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed attack deals +1d4 damage - (3 + Wis modifier)/day.

- Flying Kick Str 13, Improved Unarmed Strike, Power Attack, Jump 4 ranks Unarmed attacks during a charge deal +1d12 damage.

- Hammer Fist Dwarf, Str 13, Improved Unarmed Strike Two-handed unarmed attacks deal (1.5 x Str bonus) damage.

- Improved Grapple Dex 13, Improved Unarmed Strike +4 bonus on grapple checks and touch attack to start a grapple provokes no attack of opportunity.

- - Earth's Embrace Str 15, Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple or Improved Grab ability You deal +1d12 damage to pinned opponents each round the pin is maintained, but other opponents gain a +4 bonus on attacks against you.

- Martial Throw Dex 17, Improved Unarmed Strike Successful unarmed strike vs. opponent of your size or smaller allows a grapple check (you use Dex instead of Str) to switch places with your opponent without provoking attacks of opportunity - 1/round.

- Roundabout Kick Str 15, Improved Unarmed Strike, Power Attack Successful critical unarmed strike allows free attack against the same opponent with the same attack bonus.

- Stunning Fist Dex 13, Wis 13, BAB +8, Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed attack can Stun opponent for 1 round - Fort save DC (10 + 1/2 levels + Wis modifier) negates - 1/4 levels/day.

- - Extra Stunning Attacks BAB +2, Stunning Fist You can make 3 additional Stunning Fist attacks/day.

- - Fists of Iron BAB +2, Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist Use a stunning attempt to gain +1d6 damage on an unarmed attack.

- - Freezing the Lifeblood Wis 17, BAB +10, Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist Use a stunning attempt to paralyze a humanoid opponent for 1d4+1 rounds instead of dealing damage - Fort save (DC = 10 + 1/2 character levels + Wis modifier) negates.

- - Pain Touch Wis 15, BAB +2, Stunning Fist Victims of your Stunning Fist attacks are also Nauseated for 1 round after being stunned.

- - Rapid Stunning BAB +6, Stunning Fist, Combat Reflexes You can make 1 additional stunning attack/round.

- - Weakening Touch Wis 17, BAB +2, Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist Use a stunning attempt to give target a -6 penalty on Str for 1 minute instead of dealing damage - does not work vs. creatures immune to stunning.

- Thunderclap Str 30, Improved Unarmed Strike, Power Attack Full-round action deafens creatures in a (5 x HD) ft. cone and possibly knocks them prone.

Kiai Shout Cha 13, BAB +1 Standard action causes opponents within 30 ft. who hear you and have less HD than you to become shaken for 1d6 rounds - Will save (DC = 10 + 1/2 character levels + Cha modifier) negates - usable 3 times/day.

- Greater Kiai Shout Cha 13, BAB +9, Kiai Shout Opponents who fail their saves against your Kiai Shout are panicked for 2d6 rounds.

Mage Slayer BAB +3, Spellcraft 2 ranks Gain +1 bonus on Will saves and opponents who cast defensively still provoke an attack of opportunity from you.

Mounted Combat Ride 1 rank Ride check negates a hit to mount if it is higher than the attack result - 1/round.

- - Improved Mounted Archery Mounted Combat, Mounted Archery, Ride 1 rank Penalty to ranged attacks when mount is taking a double move is reduced to 0, penalty when mount is running is reduced to -2, and you can attack at any point during your mount's move.

- Ride-By Attack Mounted Combat, Ride 1 rank Move before and after an attack during a mounted charge and attacked opponent gains no attack of opportunity.

- - Spirited Charge Mounted Combat, Ride-By Attack, Ride 1 rank Melee weapons deal double damage and lances deal triple damage during a mounted charge.

- - - Cavalry Charger BAB +6, Mounted Combat, Spirited Charge, Trample Allows the use of the unhorse, leaping charge, and fell trample tactical maneuvers.

- Trample Mounted Combat, Ride 1 rank Opponents cannot avoid your mounted overrun attempts and mount receives a free hoof attack if overrun succeeds.

- Tremendous Charge Mounted Combat, Ride 1 rank You can use your mount's Str bonus on damage instead of your own when using a heavy lance during a mounted charge.

Phalanx Fighting BAB +1, Shield Proficiency +1 bonus to AC when wielding a light weapon and a heavy shield and additional +2 to AC and +1 on Reflex saves if ally within 5 ft. also has this feat.

- Far Shot Point Blank Shot Range increment of projectile weapons increases by 1/2 and range increment of thrown weapons is doubled.

- - Improved Precise Shot Dex 19, BAB +11, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot Ranged attacks ignore partial cover and concealment and always attack the intended opponent in a grapple.

- - Ranged Disarm Dex 15, BAB +5, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot Allows ranged disarm attempts vs. targets within 30 ft. with selected weapon.

- - - Deflect Ranged Attacks Dex 13, BAB +5, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Ranged Disarm Ready action allows attempted deflection of 1 ranged attack and target's AC is 23 (daggers), 25 (arrows), or 28 (crossbow bolts).

- - Ranged Pin Dex 15, BAB +5, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot Allows ranged grapple checks to pin target's clothing to adjacent surface and opponent can break free with a Str or Escape Artist check (DC 15).

- - Ranged Sunder Str 13, BAB +5, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot Ranged sunder attempts with slashing and bludgeoning weapons deal normal (instead of half) damage and piercing weapons can be used for ranged sunder attempts that deal half damage.

- Rapid Shot Dex 13, Point Blank Shot -2 penalty on all ranged attacks allows 1 extra ranged attack at highest BAB.

- - Manyshot Dex 17, BAB +6, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot Allows a standard action to fire 1 arrow/5 points of BAB (round up, max = 4) as a single attack with a -2 penalty/arrow.

- - - Greater Manyshot Dex 17, BAB +6, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Manyshot Arrows fired using Manyshot feat can each target a different enemy, each use a seperate attack roll, and can each be a critical hit.

Power Attack Str 13 -1 penalty to BAB gains +1 to damage for 1 round (max = BAB). Feat cannot be used with a light weapons and damage bonus doubles when wielding a weapon with 2 hands.

- Cleave Str 13, Power Attack Free attack vs. new melee opponent within reach when 1st opponent drops - 1/round.

- - Great Cleave Str 13, BAB +4, Power Attack, Cleave No limit to number of Cleave attempts/round.

- Impoved Bull Rush Str 13, Power Attack +4 bonus on opposed Str check to push opponent during a bull rush and you do not provoke an attack of opportunity from the defender.

- - Pushback Str 17, Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush Melee attacks also act as bull rushes, you do not provoke an attack of opportunity, and you push the opponent back 5 ft. maximum - 1/round.

- - Shock Trooper BAB +6, Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush Allows the use of the directed bull rush, domino rush, and heedless charge tactical maneuvers.

- - Three Mountains Str 13, Power Attack, Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Weapon Focus (heavy mace, morningstar, or greatclub) Opponents hit by your heavy mace, morningstar, or greatclub twice in the same round are nauseated for 1 round - Fort save (DC = 10 + 1/2 character levels + Str modifier) negates.

- Improved Sunder Str 13, Power Attack +4 bonus on attacks vs. held and carried items and you do not provoke an attack of opportunity during sunder attempts.

- - Combat Brute BAB +6, Power Attack, Improved Sunder Allows the use of the advancing blows, sundering cleave, and momentum swing tactical maneuvers.

- - Greater Sunder BAB +2, Improved Sunder Successful sunder attempts vs. weapons deal double damage.

- Power Lunge BAB +3, Power Attack Charge provokes an attack of opportunity from defender and deals (2 x Str bonus) on damage.

Power Climb Str 15, Fly speed (average) When gaining altitude while flying in a straight line, you can still move your full speed instead of only 1/2 speed.

Power Dive Str 15, Fly speed (average) Standard action while flying allows unavoidable overrun attack against target smaller than you. If the target is knocked prone, you can make a slam attack with a +4 bonus. If you miss and are knocked prone, you take the slam damage.

Powerful Charge Medium size or larger, BAB +1 Melee attacks during an unmounted charge deal extra damage (Medium: +1d8, Large: +2d6, Huge: +3d6, Gargantuan: +4d6, Colossal: +6d6) - 1/round.

- Greater Powerful Charge Medium size or larger, BAB +4, Powerful Charge The extra damage for Powerful Charge increases by 1 category (Colossal becomes +8d6).

Prone Attack Dex 15, BAB +2, Lightning Reflexes Prone attacks suffer no penalty, a successful prone attack allows a free action to regain your feet, and melee opponents gain no attack bonus when you are prone.

Pyro - Flames ignited by you deal +1 damage/damage die and +5 bonus on Reflex save DC to extinguish flames.

Quick Draw BAB +1 You can draw a weapon as a free action and a hidden weapon as a move action.

- Flick of the Wrist Dex 17, Quick Draw, Sleight of Hand 5 ranks Opponent is flat-footed vs. your melee attack with a light weapon drawn this round - 1/round and only once vs. each enemy in each encounter.

- Hurling Charge BAB +6, Quick Draw Gain an extra ranged attack vs. charged opponent using a thrown weapon you are holding at the start of the round.

Quicker Than the Eye Dex 19 Allows Bluff check under direct observation to misdirect opponents. Success allows 1 free standard action vs. misdirected opponents and they lose their Dex bonus to AC.

Rapid Reload BAB +2, Weapon Proficiency Light or hand crossbows can be reloaded as a free action or heavy crossbows can be reloaded with a move action. Feat only applies to selected type of crossbow and you still provoke an attack of opportunity.

Raptor School Wis 13, BAB +6, Jump 5 ranks Allows the use of the eagle's swoop, falcon's feathers, and hawk's eye tactical maneuvers.

- - Shield Charge BAB +3, Improved Shield Bash Shield attacks during a charge allow a free trip attempt if they hit, it does not provoke an attack of opportunity, and opponent does not get a chance to trip you if it fails.

- - - Shield Slam BAB +6, Improved Shield Bash, Shield Charge Full-round action or charge action allows 1 attack with your shield that deals normal damage and causes opponent to become dazed for 1 round if hit - Fort save (DC = 10 + 1/2 character levels + Str modifier) negates. Does not work vs. creatures immune to criticals.

Stand Still Str 13 Instead of dealing damage on an attack of opportunity provoked by an opponent moving out of a square you threaten, you can force it to succeed at a Reflex save (DC = 10 + damage roll) or remain in the threatened square.

Throw Anything Dex 15, BAB +2, Weapon Proficiency All melee weapons you are proficient with can be thrown with a range increment of 10 ft.

Two-Weapon Fighting Dex 15 Penalty for fighting with 2 weapons is reduced by 2 and the off-hand penalty is removed.

- Anvil of Thunder Str 13, Power Attack, Improved Sunder, Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (warhammer or light hammer), Weapon Focus (battleaxe, handaxe, or dwarven waraxe) Opponents hit by both your hammer and axe in the same round are dazed 1 round - Fort save (DC = 10 + 1/2 character levels + Str modifier) negates.

- Bear Fang Str 15, Power Attack, Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (dagger), Weapon Focus (battleaxe, handaxe, or dwarven waraxe) You can drop your axe to grapple an opponent that you hit with both your dagger and axe this round. You also gain an extra attack with the dagger.

- Hammer's Edge Str 15, Improved Bull Rush, Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (bastard sword, longsword, or scimitar), Weapon Focus (warhammer or light hammer) Opponents hit by both your hammer and sword in the same round are knocked prone - Fort save (DC = 10 + 1/2 character levels + Str modifier) negates.

- High Sword Low Axe Improved Trip, Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (bastard sword, longsword, scimitar, or short sword), Weapon Focus (battleaxe, handaxe, or dwarven waraxe) You can make a trip attempt as a free action vs. an opponent that you hit with both your sword and axe this round.

- Improved Two-Weapon Fighting Dex 17, BAB +6, Two-Weapon Fighting Allows a second off-hand attack at a -5 penalty.

- - Crescent Moon Improved Disarm, Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (dagger), Weapon Focus (bastard sword, longsword, scimitar, or short sword) You can make a disarm attempt as a free action vs. an opponent that you hit with both your dagger and sword this round.

- - Double Hit Combat Reflexes, Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting You can attack with both weapons (incurring the normal penalties) during an attack of opportunity.

- - Greater Two-Weapon Fighting Dex 19, BAB +11, Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting Allows a third off-hand attack at a -10 penalty.

- Lightning Mace Combat Reflexes, Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (light mace) Whenever you roll a critical threat with a light mace while wielding a light mace in each hand, you gain an additional attack at the same attack bonus.

- Net and Trident Dex 15, Two-Weapon Fighting, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (net), Weapon Focus (trident) Full-round action with your net and trident allows 1 throw of the net. A hit with the net and successful opposed Str check allows a 5-ft. step towards opponent followed by a full attack with the trident.

- Pin Shield BAB +4, Two-Weapon Fighting When fighting with 2 weapons vs. an opponent that is within 1 size category of yours, you can give up all off-hand attacks to negate its shield bonus to AC.

- Quick Staff Combat Expertise, Dodge, Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (quarterstaff) Your dodge bonus for using Combat Expertise while wielding a quarterstaff increases by 2.

- Spinning Halberd Combat Reflexes, Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (halberd) You gain a +1 dodge bonus to AC and an extra attack at a -5 penalty during full attacks while wielding a halberd. The extra attack deals 1d6 +1/2 your Str modifier bludgeoning damage.

Weapon Finesse BAB +1 Use Dex bonus instead of Str bonus on melee attacks with certain weapons, but the armor check penalty from a shield applies on these attacks.

Zen Archery Wis 13, BAB +1 Use your Wis bonus instead of Dex for ranged attacks.

[Username17]

None of that addresses the fact that:

1> Causing people to have to pick their best tactic rather than using everything which happens to apply at any given time leads to monotony.

2> Forcing people to get mutliclass spellcaster penalties if they want to be lucky and fast is retarded and solves nothing.

You just wasted a lot of space, but said nothing that helps your cause at all.

-Username17

[RandomCasualty]

You still have the biggest problem which is that your characters are all one dimensional, because that's what happens when stuff doesn't stack.

You're either pure strength, pure weapon focus or whatever.

Now the problem is that there's no incentive to ever care about anything else. If you're offered a magic sword and you're a strength character, you might as well just turn it down. It can be the greatest sword in the world but it's really not much use to you unless its better than your strength bonuses. On the other hand, if you're a "skill" character, you might as well just have 8 strength because it really doesn't mean much.

Your character is going to be entirely one dimensional, focusing on one thing, and that's it.

Not to mention that giants are going to be unstoppable under your system, because they're a hidden stackable bonus to strength. If a human barbarian is as good as a human paladin or human fighter, who wouldn't want to be a hill giant barbarian and have way more strength than the human?

[User3]

1. Going through a shopping list of "does this apply, or may be that, or how about this" is more boring than just picking the best tactic that applies to a situation.

2. I don't understand what you are talking about. Why would someone take multiclass spellcaster penalties from being lucky and fast?

Overall:
I almost agree with you that for the bonuses to work as written they should be priced(class abilities or items) in a linear fashion so that two items of +1 luck to AC is roughly the same as a +2 insight to AC. Its the only way to make the bonuses even remotely balanced against each other.

However, some forms of bonuses are dead easy to bypass(Dodge mods to AC, for example), and others have no method in game to touch (luck bonuses). That should count for something in terms of what you are paying (feats, class abilities, spells cast, items, or tactical opportunity cost) to get that kind of bonus.

----------

Also, unless you remove stacking, you cannot prevent the "I cast a bunch of low level spells and make myself into superduper invincible guy who kicks the ass of monsters CRed way past my level." As long as the spell system exists, thats always going to be an issue. Almost as bad is the issue where a level 10 character picks up nine classes and has one stat so big that nothing at his level can touch him.

I could see where circumstance stacking could be allowed, but the fact that cleric archer cheese exists at all is a good indication that magic bonus stacking is a problem. Since none of the individual spell or abilities is problematic when used alone, it must be that they stack together that is the problem.

I mean, the level system exists to be a rough estimate of power level, within certain variances. If two characters can be doing the same role and one is dramatically better in the exact same situations because of one set of rules (rules for stacking), then isn't it time to rethink that set of rules?

[User3]

RC,

Those are valid points, but I see a few counter arguments:

1. You should be able to have halfling or pixie fighters that can have a Strength of 8 and still kick as much ass as a fighter of their level. The "halfling fighter with storm giant strength" is both a weird and dumb thing to force onto every halfling fighter in the game. We could drop the (somewhat feeble but vaild) ideas that small class weapons do less damage if we had a place for skillful fighters being able to hurt people as well as strong fighters.

2. Giants, under this system, will have to conform to just the same rules as any other Strength fighter. So go ahead and play one. At their ECL, they should have about as much strength and HD as a Strength fighter of the same level, and roughly equivilant number and power of special abilities of a Strength fighter.

3. Named bonuses should have counters, and times when they don't apply. Conan might really like magic daggers simply because his Strength bonus doesn't apply to ranged combat. Maybe we could rule that Strength might not help against incorporeal creatures, for example.

The "best magic sword ever" would apply to a situation where you couldn't use your main stat.

Skill bonuses may not apply if the user is under a mind-affecting effect, or is sickened/nauseated/afraid(fear effect).

Dark mojo bonuses to hit may not work when your signature costume isn't in the best condition or you are fighting a good guy.

4. Sure, some concepts are a little narrow. Conan fights with a greatsword and no armor, and he grapples, and that seems to work for him.

For people that want broader concepts, there is no reason why you can't have a feat or class feature that lets you stack two particular class features together so that you can be the strong and fast fighter, and in situations where you can't use strength you at least have a fast score from your fast levels, and visa versa.

The game breaks right at the point when the 40+ named bonuses and nigh infinite unnamed bonuses can stack together. Easy stacking is easy game breaking.

[RandomCasualty]

2. I don't understand what you are talking about. Why would someone take multiclass spellcaster penalties from being lucky and fast?

Because you can only derive a bonus from one of those, so any bonus you're putting to speed is a bonus that isn't going to luck and vice versa and beacuse the two don't stack, it's much like being a multiclass caster, you've got a bunch of weak shit and no specialty.

1091830475[/unixtime]]
Also, unless you remove stacking, you cannot prevent the "I cast a bunch of low level spells and make myself into superduper invincible guy who kicks the ass of monsters CRed way past my level." As long as the spell system exists, thats always going to be an issue. Almost as bad is the issue where a level 10 character picks up nine classes and has one stat so big that nothing at his level can touch him.

That's actually fairly easy to deal with, you just have a [buff] tag on spells, and you have a rule that you can only have one spell with the [buff] tag active at once. Casting another one on yourself instantly gets rid of the last one. Problem solved with minimal changes.

Also you could simply give teleport spells a longer casting time and disallow persistent spell, that way the cleric has to waste rounds actually buffing himself. That works too.

I almost agree with you that for the bonuses to work as written they should be priced(class abilities or items) in a linear fashion so that two items of +1 luck to AC is roughly the same as a +2 insight to AC. Its the only way to make the bonuses even remotely balanced against each other.

For this to work, characters must also advance in a linear fashion, and that just doesn't work for gold peice costs, because you don't get a linear amount of gold, it rises exponentially. Linear amounts also run the risk of overcustomization and overspecialization, because they let you get a proportionally huge bonus by putting every gold coin you have to one thing, and we don't want one dimensional characters like that. There has to be some kind of diminishing returns system set up to prevent people from overspecializing. So if you want a +200 to hide skill you pay out the ass, otherwise we will see all sorts of ridiculous inflations to one specific stat, and that's bad for the game in general.

The easiest way to prevent people from taking tons of magic item bonuses is to just make the number of bonuses small and non-expandable. Just say magic items can't grant luck bonuses for instance. They just grant one type of bonus to each variable and they don't stack, that way you keep the geometric progression on cost and you fix the other problems.

[User3]

The [buff] tag idea is interesting at first glance, but here are the flaws:

A. Level 1 casters of Bless spells can cancel the effects of pimp buffs like Tenser's Transformation or Polymorph.

B. Some spells buff your equipment(like Greater Magic weapon), so you stack there.

C. Some spells will last a long time and give enemies stackable penalties(like Symbols), which is the same as giving all your guys stackable buffs.

D. Some spells effect everyone in an area (like Bless). Are your clerics going to not cast Bless because it interferes with the mage's Shield spell?

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Getting rid of persistant spells only means that the mage in the party casts a Mass Invisibility or Fog Cloud when ambushed and the party waits three or four turns and eats popcorn so that the cleric cast all his prep spells and then can outfight the fighter. For offenses where the cleric knows that he's going to attack, he'll have the time to cast his spells in order to rock the encounter.

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If the different bonuses were priced the same and were allowed to stack, there would have to be a balancing effect like level. Maybe at level 1 you can have up to a +5 to AC from stacking bonuses, and it goes up by 1 per level.

Otherwise, there is no reason to not overspecialize, since feats like Power Attack reward a really big attack bonus.