CR Is Borken; I Will Prove

[Kaelik]

I believe he was mentioning Mind Flayers from the expanded psionic Handbook which are ML 9 manifesters at CR 8, meaning they're throwing 5th level spells powers when the party usually only has 4th level ones. And it's psionics so any anti-magic tricks don't work at all, it will ignore half the game's usual disables, and that's before factoring in its racial bits.

While that is problematic in pretty much the same way as the Planetar or a couple other monsters I do want to point out that literally any defense you could even imagine using against SLAs (like the regular Illithid) works just as well against psionics.

[erik]

Mind Flayers are not one of the OP monsters at all

I believe he was mentioning Mind Flayers from the expanded psionic Handbook which are ML 9 manifesters at CR 8, meaning they're throwing 5th level spells powers when the party usually only has 4th level ones. And it's psionics so any anti-magic tricks don't work at all, it will ignore half the game's usual disables, and that's before factoring in its racial bits.

Half of that argument isn't a CR argument, but is instead an argument that one of the optional rules for psionics doesn't work (magic is different).

The various ways you can get a level CR +1 caster on monsters turns out to not be terribly problematic in practice. If anything straight-up PCs aren't as challenging as most monsters. Which I think is a more damning criticism of the CR system, it allows you to get full credit for fighting shit like a level 10 monk. If CR is broken, I think it is broken in that PC levels don't easily translate 1:1, largely from the fault of the levels to begin with.

[maglag]

That's only if you're using magic-psionics transparecy.

In which case the ExpPsi Mind Flayer can use its Dispel Psionics to swiftly debuff the party with a +17 bonus against the player's DC 19. Because lol psionics.

[Kaelik]

That's only if you're using magic-psionics transparecy.

Yes, if you only use the default rule.

Although, for the record, if you don't use the default rule, then Psionic Mindflayers don't even have SR, so they are still glass cannons.

But yes, the Mindflayer can totally spend a standard action AoE dispelling one spell from each person, or strip all the buffs from a single member of the four person party, before promptly being murdered by the actions of the entire four person party.

EDIT: Having looked at the actual powers, Psionic Mindflayers are not even close to a problem, the only 5th level powers they even have are a 1 minute casting time plot ability that mimics what they can already do by Dominating someone, and then Planeshift, something regular Mindflayers already had. At worst they are a 8th level caster with a +1CL bonus, and I really don't think that's a big deal.

[Blicero]

The problem is that no one ever says "If I pull a book out at random, and point to a monster there is an X% chance that it will be too strong and a Y% chance that it will be too weak." They instead always say "But remember the AlamoAboleth/Adamntium Horror"

The statement "the CR of a randomly selected monster in this book is grossly inaccurate" might actually hold true for the MM2. (If I am misremembering the extent of that book's issues, call me out on my shitty recollection.) I don't know if anything else in the deadtree oeuvre of 3.x is as bad though.

[Kaelik]

The problem is that no one ever says "If I pull a book out at random, and point to a monster there is an X% chance that it will be too strong and a Y% chance that it will be too weak." They instead always say "But remember the AlamoAboleth/Adamntium Horror"

The statement "the CR of a randomly selected monster in this book is grossly inaccurate" might actually hold true for the MM2. (If I am misremembering the extent of that book's issues, call me out on my shitty recollection.) I don't know if anything else in the deadtree oeuvre of 3.x is as bad though.

While the MM2 has a lot more of the crazy bullshit, I don't think that would even be true for the MM2. I suspect most people are confirmation biasing away the vast majority of the book (and/or a lot of those monsters people forget are also not that interesting, and the broken ones are at least interesting because of brokenness).

[Blicero]

While the MM2 has a lot more of the crazy bullshit, I don't think that would even be true for the MM2. I suspect most people are confirmation biasing away the vast majority of the book (and/or a lot of those monsters people forget are also not that interesting, and the broken ones are at least interesting because of brokenness).

Yeah, that is probably true. I think MM2 has a lot of severely underpowered monsters (particularly at high CRs), but I am not sure that it has that many super overpowered monsters, other than the mordenkainen's game disjunction robots. And a high frequency of overpowered beasties is probably more damaging to the perceived validity of CR than a high frequency of underpowered critters is.

[Kaelik]

While the MM2 has a lot more of the crazy bullshit, I don't think that would even be true for the MM2. I suspect most people are confirmation biasing away the vast majority of the book (and/or a lot of those monsters people forget are also not that interesting, and the broken ones are at least interesting because of brokenness).

Yeah, that is probably true. I think MM2 has a lot of severely underpowered monsters (particularly at high CRs), but I am not sure that it has that many super overpowered monsters, other than the mordenkainen's game disjunction robots. And a high frequency of overpowered beasties is probably more damaging to the perceived validity of CR than a high frequency of underpowered critters is.

Honestly, I can't possibly care about the CR of 15 or higher monsters, since that's the world of Polymorph Any Object and Trap the Soul and Greater Planar Binding (Pit Fiends). I can sort of care about 11-14 because even though Planar Binding could break the game, you can also just not let people do that. (Like Tome Houserules), and they game sort of functions.

[JonSetanta]

The statement "the CR of a randomly selected monster in this book is grossly inaccurate" might actually hold true for the MM2. (If I am misremembering the extent of that book's issues, call me out on my shitty recollection.) I don't know if anything else in the deadtree oeuvre of 3.x is as bad though.

It's that case for a lot more books than that, but yes you are correct.

And how do you pronounce "oeuvre"?

[TiaC]

Actually, flipping through my MM2, most things are badly CRed one way or another. Discounting monsters of CR 13+, my random flips to a few different points hit the Abiel, Darktentacles, Fihyr, Grimalken and Swamplight Lynx. I would argue that all of those are either under or over-CRed. Monsters of Faerun is similarly bad, but both of these books share the distinction of not being 3.5. CR had some stumbles at first, but after these first few books, it got its act together.

[Username17]

And how do you pronounce "oeuvre"?

"Erv-ruh"

-Username17

[JonSetanta]

Thanks Frank

[Kaelik]

Actually, flipping through my MM2, most things are badly CRed one way or another. Discounting monsters of CR 13+, my random flips to a few different points hit the Abiel, Darktentacles, Fihyr, Grimalken and Swamplight Lynx. I would argue that all of those are either under or over-CRed. Monsters of Faerun is similarly bad, but both of these books share the distinction of not being 3.5. CR had some stumbles at first, but after these first few books, it got its act together.

Taking a break from my comprehensive by CR categorization of the entire MM 2 to make this point, I will address your specific monsters out of turn:

Abiel: This is actually three monsters, and 2 of them are perfectly fine for their CR, the other one is batshit fucking crazy of course, with 16th level Druid casting at CR 12, and no appreciable loss compared to a Druid 12 to explain it.

Darkententacles: Seems fine, it's a melee brute with no movespeed that can cast Hold Monster a few times. You walk away from it and laugh unless you fail the save, and then you get the shitted on while paralyzed. That's really not that uncommon, and certainly not OP, at CR 7.

Fihyr: There's a CR 15 version that is kind of pathetic, on the principle that level 15 parties start the day with Heroe's Feast and then move on to casting See Invis when things happen around them. The CR 3 version has 18 HP, a shit bite attack, and a Fear Aura with a low DC. That's fine for a CR 3. I guess you think it's underpowered? The DC is pretty low, but it repeats on every attack. Comparison point is Yeth Hound and Cockatrice, lower range Lower DC but repeatable fear effect, more fragile. And it's offense is off the charts compared to the Mephits of the same CR (who usually have fast healing, at least one other defensive spell, and flying).

Grimalken: Without specifically figuring out what 3.0 Polymorph even did, this one seems mostly fine. It can sit around as a bat and have blindsense, it can swim off as a crocodile, it can burrow as a wolverine, or it can pounce as a leopard, or fight as a blackbear. It has less HP than all of those except the leopard (and the bat) and they are all CR 2 (except the bat). I mean sure, it is objectively better than the Leopard because any time the Leopard doesn't want to be a Leopard it can spend an action to just not be a Leopard, but it's never more dangerous than CR 2, and I have a hard time believing it will get to do anything more impressive than just being a CR 2 animal that has almost as much HP, since shifting takes a standard action an is just inviting the pain train.

Swamplight Lnyx: It's a CR 7 pouncer. There are alot of those around that CR, and they all look pretty comparable to this one. The Criosphinx can fly, but doesn't have improved grab or blur. The Lammasu has a lot less HP and does less damage, but also casts Cleric spells well enough to bring it back in line, and is CR 8, The Dire Tiger has a good chunk more HP, does more damage, but doesn't have blur, is slower, is dumb as a box of rocks and is CR 8, The Hellcat has less HP, does less damage, but is probably going to invisible (at least initially), and has Fire Resistance 10, SR 19, and DR 5/good. There is nothing that warrants classifying this as over or under CRed relative to all the other CR 7-8 pouncers.

So based on the 7 monsters you named as being a problem, I count 1. I found more than that going alphabetically, because I stumbled upon a second monster that casts as a 14th level Sorcerer at CR 10.

[Leress]

Wasn't there a monster that could drop a Blasphemy that would instant-kill most parties for its CR?

[Kaelik]

Wasn't there a monster that could drop a Blasphemy that would instant-kill most parties for its CR?

I'm sure there are several, Obviously anything you do with monsters of CR greater than the level of the party is going to make that worse. (I have an Eight Person Gestalt Party, so I think that means I can spend a boss monster 7 levels higher than them.)

There are probably some naturals somewhere (if there are any in the MM2 I'll certainly be mentioning them) but the most common method I've seen of doing it is some variation of high HD low CR monster + Half Fiend. So like, a Half Fiend Elder Air Elemental is CR 14, and casts Blasphemy as an SLA once per day at CL 24.

But that's more a problem with a template that grants a spell that scales entirely off HD, and mostly ignores the fact that monsters can have too many HD for CR in combination.

[Neurosis]

I bow out of this thread, btw due to recent events (firing, stupid spontaneous self mutilation).

[Slade]

What are these 12 overpowered monsters?

There are the dragons, mind-flayers, that damn crab, and ... ?

As for the CR system, the only bizarre thing about it is the "non-associated levels" method for advancing monsters. An ogre is CR 3. But an ogre cleric 4 is "CR 5", which is kind of wonky, because we're talking about a 8HD dude that will enter combat with Str 30. See also: Nymph sorceresses.

MM2 has the automata capable of casting mordenkainen's game disjunction.

But he is a unique dude. It'd be like worrying about fighting Vecna. How often do you expect to fight Vecna?

[Kaelik]

What are these 12 overpowered monsters?

There are the dragons, mind-flayers, that damn crab, and ... ?

As for the CR system, the only bizarre thing about it is the "non-associated levels" method for advancing monsters. An ogre is CR 3. But an ogre cleric 4 is "CR 5", which is kind of wonky, because we're talking about a 8HD dude that will enter combat with Str 30. See also: Nymph sorceresses.

MM2 has the automata capable of casting mordenkainen's game disjunction.

But he is a unique dude. It'd be like worrying about fighting Vecna. How often do you expect to fight Vecna?

If you are level 20whatever you should be worried about Vecna, if you are level 9, you should be worried about CR 9 monsters. That was my post. Being a single one doesn't make you lower CR, it makes you the same goddam CR you would be if there were lots of you.

[TiaC]

Actually, flipping through my MM2, most things are badly CRed one way or another. Discounting monsters of CR 13+, my random flips to a few different points hit the Abiel, Darktentacles, Fihyr, Grimalken and Swamplight Lynx. I would argue that all of those are either under or over-CRed. Monsters of Faerun is similarly bad, but both of these books share the distinction of not being 3.5. CR had some stumbles at first, but after these first few books, it got its act together.

Taking a break from my comprehensive by CR categorization of the entire MM 2 to make this point, I will address your specific monsters out of turn:

Abiel: This is actually three monsters, and 2 of them are perfectly fine for their CR, the other one is batshit fucking crazy of course, with 16th level Druid casting at CR 12, and no appreciable loss compared to a Druid 12 to explain it.

Darkententacles: Seems fine, it's a melee brute with no movespeed that can cast Hold Monster a few times. You walk away from it and laugh unless you fail the save, and then you get the shitted on while paralyzed. That's really not that uncommon, and certainly not OP, at CR 7.

Fihyr: There's a CR 15 version that is kind of pathetic, on the principle that level 15 parties start the day with Heroe's Feast and then move on to casting See Invis when things happen around them. The CR 3 version has 18 HP, a shit bite attack, and a Fear Aura with a low DC. That's fine for a CR 3. I guess you think it's underpowered? The DC is pretty low, but it repeats on every attack. Comparison point is Yeth Hound and Cockatrice, lower range Lower DC but repeatable fear effect, more fragile. And it's offense is off the charts compared to the Mephits of the same CR (who usually have fast healing, at least one other defensive spell, and flying).

Grimalken: Without specifically figuring out what 3.0 Polymorph even did, this one seems mostly fine. It can sit around as a bat and have blindsense, it can swim off as a crocodile, it can burrow as a wolverine, or it can pounce as a leopard, or fight as a blackbear. It has less HP than all of those except the leopard (and the bat) and they are all CR 2 (except the bat). I mean sure, it is objectively better than the Leopard because any time the Leopard doesn't want to be a Leopard it can spend an action to just not be a Leopard, but it's never more dangerous than CR 2, and I have a hard time believing it will get to do anything more impressive than just being a CR 2 animal that has almost as much HP, since shifting takes a standard action an is just inviting the pain train.

Swamplight Lnyx: It's a CR 7 pouncer. There are alot of those around that CR, and they all look pretty comparable to this one. The Criosphinx can fly, but doesn't have improved grab or blur. The Lammasu has a lot less HP and does less damage, but also casts Cleric spells well enough to bring it back in line, and is CR 8, The Dire Tiger has a good chunk more HP, does more damage, but doesn't have blur, is slower, is dumb as a box of rocks and is CR 8, The Hellcat has less HP, does less damage, but is probably going to invisible (at least initially), and has Fire Resistance 10, SR 19, and DR 5/good. There is nothing that warrants classifying this as over or under CRed relative to all the other CR 7-8 pouncers.

So based on the 7 monsters you named as being a problem, I count 1. I found more than that going alphabetically, because I stumbled upon a second monster that casts as a 14th level Sorcerer at CR 10.

I disagree on some of these. The Abeil Drone is rather pathetic. CR 2, but 4 hp and 11 AC. Yes, it can cast sleep on the whole party, but it has a DC of 9. A second level Cleric passes that on a 2.

The Darktentacles isn't as bad as I though, but it's really well set up to be a closet troll that can grapple the entire party and then Wall of Force to keep others away. I guess it's pretty close to a hydra actually.

The Fihyr is scary, but it really has no way to actually kill you. (except that the fear doesn't have a duration, so maybe you'll starve?) A fight with it is just a comedy of errors as it misses or does 1 damage and everyone runs about in a panic.

For the Grimalken, when I saw it, I wanted a sense of what it could turn into, so I checked that book. In the MM2, the medium or smaller animals include the Legendary Eagle, Ape, and Wolf. So, looking at those, the ability to turn into them with stat replacement is crazy.

Hm, not quite sure what my issue was with the Lynx. I guess it has not-great AC or damage?

So, I continue to stand by the position that MM2 is significantly worse-CRed than the 3.5 MMs.

(Also, how about those Elemental Weirds? CR 12, immobile, but cast as 18th level sorcerers with all the good divination spells at will?!)

[Kaelik]

I disagree on some of these. The Abeil Drone is rather pathetic. CR 2, but 4 hp and 11 AC. Yes, it can cast sleep on the whole party, but it has a DC of 9. A second level Cleric passes that on a 2.

The Darktentacles isn't as bad as I though, but it's really well set up to be a closet troll that can grapple the entire party and then Wall of Force to keep others away. I guess it's pretty close to a hydra actually.

The Fihyr is scary, but it really has no way to actually kill you. (except that the fear doesn't have a duration, so maybe you'll starve?) A fight with it is just a comedy of errors as it misses or does 1 damage and everyone runs about in a panic.

For the Grimalken, when I saw it, I wanted a sense of what it could turn into, so I checked that book. In the MM2, the medium or smaller animals include the Legendary Eagle, Ape, and Wolf. So, looking at those, the ability to turn into them with stat replacement is crazy.

1) I agree that the Fihyr fight isn't exactly likely to kill you, but if you all run off, that's a challenging encounter "beating" you, admittedly in a way that doesn't TPK, which is itself a good thing. Depending on many things you might come back and fight, or not or whatever, but the point is that it's not out of place at CR 2.

2) The DC on sleep is quite low, sure, but so what? If the fight involves the Cleric and maybe the Wizard awake and dealing with it/waking up the other party members that is a good thing (and truthfully, it's one of those hive monsters where no one cares how you do against a single one at level 1, because it's supposed to be chaff against your level 5 party or whatever that runs into a war band).

3) I did not look at the MM 2 monsters at all, I just looked at the 3.5 MM ones it could turn into, because that's the standard for me? I haven't gotten to all the animals in the MM 2, and maybe they will all turn out to be ass flavored ass or maybe rockorz, I will certainly update my opinion if it comes up.

So, I continue to stand by the position that MM2 is significantly worse-CRed than the 3.5 MMs.

Okay, and I agree with that claim. Hell, if I didn't think the MM 2 was worse than then the 3.5 MM I or some relatively diverse set of 3.5 monsters, I would use those as the floor of this challenge instead, because of course I would.

But can you see how that is literally nothing like what you actually said to whit: "Actually, flipping through my MM2, most things are badly CRed one way or another." A statement which to mean if not outright states, at least implies that more than 50% of the MM 2 is off by more than one CR.

And do you not see how this is precisely the problem I must war against, because by conflating the fact that the MM 2 is slightly worse balanced than the 3.5 MM I with the claim that more than 50% of the MM 2 is off by more than one CR, you are justifying the Sigma's and Neurosis's of the world who keep saying really dumb things because there are a few badly CRed monsters.

(Also, how about those Elemental Weirds? CR 12, immobile, but cast as 18th level sorcerers with all the good divination spells at will?!)

While I haven't gotten to them yet in my book, from what I recall, they either lose all their abilities if they leave their pool, or are never allowed to leave their pool. So while you probably don't want to start a feud with one, because he will Wish you next to him and then murder you, a creature that is able to free action Contact Other Plane and/or Divination is probably the least likely to not know that you definitely won't pick a fight with it if it just let's you know it's a Weird and can cast Gate, and so you will never be stupid enough to fight, and it will always be smart enough to know you won't fight, and then you can approach it's fountain and bargain for some divinations like the good plot monster. Which isn't to say that I won't be classifying them as "Over" for the purposes of my evaluation, but like... it's not supposed to fight the PCs ever? Probably?

That excuse doesn't fly for the Abeil Queen or the Bone Naga though, both of whom cast as PC classes of much higher than their CR, while also have a bunch of good HD, good stats, and some extra free immunities and abilities on top, and can move around, and are supposed to fight the PCs.

[deaddmwalking]

I'd like to point out that the fact we can discuss which monsters are over- or under-CR is itself a proof that CR works.

Without regard to a creature's hit dice we are able to derive an 'intangible' that summarizes how difficult a monster is in an encounter relative to EVERY SINGLE OTHER MONSTER.

Imagine even trying ot have this discussion using a 2nd Edition Green Dragon (Age 9) with an XP value of 13,000 versus a Fire Giant/Witch doctor 4th worth 12,000 XP.

If CR didn't work, we wouldn't be able to identify when a creature has been assigned CR incorrectly.

The specific formulas to calculate CR in a vacuum are likely to fail because some things synergize particularly well (or conversely, very poorly) but the system can also be used to identify those outliers and adjust them accordingly.

[Kaelik]

I'd like to point out that the fact we can discuss which monsters are over- or under-CR is itself a proof that CR works.

Without regard to a creature's hit dice we are able to derive an 'intangible' that summarizes how difficult a monster is in an encounter relative to EVERY SINGLE OTHER MONSTER.

Imagine even trying ot have this discussion using a 2nd Edition Green Dragon (Age 9) with an XP value of 13,000 versus a Fire Giant/Witch doctor 4th worth 12,000 XP.

If CR didn't work, we wouldn't be able to identify when a creature has been assigned CR incorrectly.

The specific formulas to calculate CR in a vacuum are likely to fail because some things synergize particularly well (or conversely, very poorly) but the system can also be used to identify those outliers and adjust them accordingly.

While that might be true, it might not. When comparing for example, the Swamp Lynx, one way to think about it is comparing it's defenses (Blur, living in a Marsh that it ignores difficult terrain of) and it's attack (Pounce routine damage and improved grab) to similar monsters, and saying "It's in line with all the other CR 7-8s" and that kind of analysis of whether something is over or under CRed is totally evidence of the CR system working (if someone accepts that as even a kind of argument to make).

But there are other kinds of "Is this properly CRed" that could destroy the foundation of CR. For example, the Abeil Queen or Bone Naga or That Damn Crab: Saying "These monsters are too challenging for the parties that are supposed to fight them" does not imply that any other monster is well established. It could conceptually be the case for example, that literally every monster in both the Monster Manual 3.5 and Monster Manual II is over or under CRed by comparison to the parties that face it.

While that doesn't mean that conceptually CR is a bad thing, it would, if true, support the most CR skeptical of posters, like Sigma's claim that more than half of the MM 2 and more than half of all other books with monsters all have more than half their monsters mis CRed.

I mean, that's a level of radical skepticism that would make CR almost entirely useless, but is still a conclusion you could come to by judging monsters the way we do the Abeil Queen.

[Kaelik]

For the Grimalken, when I saw it, I wanted a sense of what it could turn into, so I checked that book. In the MM2, the medium or smaller animals include the Legendary Eagle, Ape, and Wolf. So, looking at those, the ability to turn into them with stat replacement is crazy.

If you are using 3.5 Polymorph, they can't turn into those because of HD restrictions. If you are using Polymorph Self 3.0 then.... I don't fucking know? But I don't think they can, since it explicitly says they can only turn into an average member of the species, and Legendary animals are explicitly called out as being exceptional members of the species, so you are right back to turning into a Leopard.

[erik]

I thought legendary animals were so exceptional that they were an exception to being like elite array++. 3e Animal lords get an ability to wild shape into them, but that's my only main evidence for rebuttal.

[Kaelik]

I thought legendary animals were so exceptional that they were an exception to being like elite array++. 3e Animal lords get an ability to wild shape into them, but that's my only main evidence for rebuttal.

While in all meaningful respects as a DM using a monster or a PC fighting a monster, A Legendary Eagles is in zero ways related to an Eagle (or at least, no more so than size and the fact that it flies and the fact that it doesn't cast spells).

However, for the purpose of polymorphing, Legendary animals specifically say things like:

Throughout the world, legends describe extraordinary animals of incredible strength, speed, and power. Such an animal may have saved a village, fended off a pack of predators to protect the young, aided some legendary hero on a divine quest, or guided a lost child to safety. These are legendary animals.
According to some theories, such creatures have been imbued with power beyond that of all other animals so that they can serve as nature’s defenders. In fact, they do not exist at all until a need for them arises. Legendary animals are created from normal animals of their kind through the power of nature (or a deity) whenever a character of appropriate level needs such a companion. Thus, they are rarely encountered outside the presence of a high-level druid or some other advanced character.

Legendary animals are no larger than normal animals of the same kind, but they are considerably more dangerous in combat.

So for the purposes of Polymorph Self, it sure looks like a Legendary Eagle isn't any different from an awakened Eagle with 15 Monk levels for whether you can turn into it.