Pokemon Races

[Username17]

What will the incentive be for single-classing? STAB? And does your defensive type depend on your class levels, or just a basic template?

Move concept: abilities will have a level and prerequisites. Some abilities simply require that you have a level in an appropriate class (and be whatever level over all). Other abilities require that you have more than one level in certain things. So if you want to pull the MewTwo bullshit, you need to take just an ass tonne of levels in Psychic.

What this means is that refusing to evolve can actually get you certain moves faster, while it delays access to other moves. For example, your Venusaur class, while short, gives you some cool stuff (bigger size for one). But if you don't take it, and keep taking levels of Plant, you'll qualify for Solarbeam faster.

Defenses are a problem. With characters seriously expecting to get like 5 classes in some cases, porting over the D&D save system seems like a death wish. What should probably end up happening then, is to have a save system based on character level that give periodic small class based bonuses to various saves. Since Saves are based on Dec, Con, & Wis, DCs of attacks should be based on Str, Int, or Cha.

Damage multiples probably shouldn't happen, defense types should give you bonuses and penalties to AC and Saves. I am seriously considering a "Defense Modifier" which you get every N levels in a class that is simply doubled against things it is strong against and not added against things it is weak against. Unfortunately, while elegant in a way, it seems far too complicated to use outside a computer game.

-Username17

[Prak]

You mean just a straight bonus based on level to AC and saves? D20 modern already does that, somewhat, each class has a defense bonus, scaled to level, that adds to AC because armour is rarely seen in modern. So we could seriously do that and just say that it doubles or is removed based on what's attacking you. I like that idea, it's a hell of a lot simpler than doing something like adding 15 new subtypes including "Pokefire" and "Pokeice".

[CatharzGodfoot]

How about a level-based defense score and a set of balanced modifiers for every class? So a plant creature gets Metal -4, Water -2, Fire +3, Air +0, Mental +3 (or whatever). When you multiclass you just add the bonuses together, so a Kelpachu gets adds Metal +1, Water +1, Fire +2, Air -2, Mental -2 for a total of Meta -3, Water -1, Fire +5, Air -2, Mental -1.

The problem I see with this system is divergence for thematic multiclassing, but having 'prestige classes' give zeros across the board would alleviate that to some extent.

[Prak]

How about a level-based defense score and a set of balanced modifiers for every class? So a plant creature gets Metal -4, Water -2, Fire +3, Air +0, Mental +3 (or whatever). When you multiclass you just add the bonuses together, so a Kelpachu gets adds Metal +1, Water +1, Fire +2, Air -2, Mental -2 for a total of Meta -3, Water -1, Fire +5, Air -2, Mental -1.

The problem I see with this system is divergence for thematic multiclassing, but having 'prestige classes' give zeros across the board would alleviate that to some extent.

That sounds way too complicated to me, while Frank's idea is much quicker. With Frank's a level 1 charmander with a +3 defense doesn't get it's bonus against a squirtle, and a level 1 squirtle with a +3 defense gets +6 against the charmander. When the charmander goes up against a level 1 pikachu with a +2 defense, the charmander gets +3 against the pikachu, and the pikachu gets +2 against the charmander.

With your idea you have to keep track of what number you put into your modifier against which types. It's not exactly as complicated as it sounded at first, but it's still more complicated than franks, or at least what I thought frank's idea was.

[Calibron]

Frank's is certainly the simpler of the two, though for some less math-happy groups even that minuscule amount of multiplication and division will be problematic. I like it, but Frank apparently likes to keep things very simple(obviously a laudable goal for a pen&paper game).

Perhaps a single number, based on character level, to be added or subtracted when a "super effective" or "not very effective" attack is used. With the normal numerical disparity found in the GB games this would seem a ridiculous notion, but seeing as numbers must at least stay within the same RNG, a D20; I think it could work if Frank really insists that his initial thought on the matter is too much for the average gaming group to have to deal with every session.

[Username17]

One of the concepts of Pokemon is that multi-typed creatures actually get very tough against some things and very weak against others. So it would actually be appropriate for an Ice/Plant Pokemon to have really poor saves against Fire effects.

However, those modifiers can be manageable and fixed, because attack rolls and saves are made on a d20. So long as the base defenses scale to character level, a flat bonus against things you are defensively Strong against and a penalty against things you are Weak against works fine.

That being said, I think that there should be a lot less attack types. Bug and Dragon can certainly be classes, but they probably should not be attack types that people have to remember whether they get resistances against.

-Username17

[Calibron]

Yes we can certainly do with fewer class types.

[Maxus]

Yes we can certainly do with fewer class types.

So what's the list?

Normal
Fire
Water
Grass
Ice
Electricity
Flying
Rock
Ground
Fighting
Bug
Poison
Psychic
Ghost
Dragon
Dark
Steel

That's 17, right?

Offhand, I'd say we can merge Rock, Ground, and possibly Steel into Earth, merge Ghost with Dark (Ghost-types are incorporeal Dark types, as an idea), drop Flying...

Other extraneous-looking types may be Bug and Dragon (as someone said earlier), Fighting, and Poison.

Edit: If we're going to be merging/cutting out types, some adjustment of the type advantage/disadvantage chart might be in order. And do we still have immunities?

[Prak]

well, then we get into the war of what types certain people think are valid and what types they don't. I actually usually try to add types, but there's not enough variation for the types I generally try to add. but I guess my list would be:

Fire
Water
Grass
Ice
Electricity
Mineral (Rock, Ground, Steel)
Poison
Mystic (Psychic, Ghost, Dark)
types that deal simply with what you are (normal, dragon, bug, flying, fighting) rather than what essence you have are done away with/subsumed.

Or we could go by the card games energy types:
Fire
Grass
Water
Lightning
Dark
Psychic
Fighting
Normal

except I think that'd be stupid.

[Koumei]

I was about to ask if Earth is still immune to Electricity, Ghost is still immune to Normal and Fighting (ie non-energy attacks), and Dark is still immune to Psychic (seeing as it exists primarily to give the finger to what used to be the strongest type, which every fucking Legendary also seems to be).

Do we care about berries, Poffins/Pokeblocks, the five contest stats (cuteness, beauty, coolness, toughness and intelligence - none of which affect combat, and one of which affects the evolution of a single Pokemon) and happiness (which affects a number of evolutions, two attacks and also allows Dratini/Dragonair/Dragonite to learn a really powerful attack)?

I assume that EVs get kicked to the curb, and when you level up, you just decide what class/feat/whatever you take. The EV system makes you want to not use Kadabra against fighting types, which is dumb -_-

[Maxus]

I was about to ask if Earth is still immune to Electricity, Ghost is still immune to Normal and Fighting (ie non-energy attacks), and Dark is still immune to Psychic (seeing as it exists primarily to give the finger to what used to be the strongest type, which every fucking Legendary also seems to be).

Do we care about berries, Poffins/Pokeblocks, the five contest stats (cuteness, beauty, coolness, toughness and intelligence - none of which affect combat, and one of which affects the evolution of a single Pokemon) and happiness (which affects a number of evolutions, two attacks and also allows Dratini/Dragonair/Dragonite to learn a really powerful attack)?

I assume that EVs get kicked to the curb, and when you level up, you just decide what class/feat/whatever you take. The EV system makes you want to not use Kadabra against fighting types, which is dumb -_-

I was wondering if we still have TMs/HMs myself. And if they function like a wizard finding a spellbook in a pile of loot and just gain free, new options. Or, in the case of HMs, providing practical uses.

[Crissa]

I'd make the TMs/HMs work like feats; you can opt to choose them, but it'll take the place of something else you could have as well.

I'm not sure folding types together is really what you want, as it really seems like an all or nothing stance to me; once you start making them too similar...

-Crissa

[Prak]

I'd make the TMs/HMs work like feats; you can opt to choose them, but it'll take the place of something else you could have as well.

I'm inclined to actually do the t/hms either way, as feats or "invocations"

I'm not sure folding types together is really what you want, as it really seems like an all or nothing stance to me; once you start making them too similar...

-Crissa

same, but, for the sake of argument, I put up a list i'd be vaguely comfortable with.

[Prak]

I was about to ask if Earth is still immune to Electricity, Ghost is still immune to Normal and Fighting (ie non-energy attacks), and Dark is still immune to Psychic (seeing as it exists primarily to give the finger to what used to be the strongest type, which every fucking Legendary also seems to be).

yes.

Do we care about berries, Poffins/Pokeblocks,

I want to, but the poffins and pokeblocks only matter if we care about

the five contest stats (cuteness, beauty, coolness, toughness and intelligence - none of which affect combat, and one of which affects the evolution of a single Pokemon) and happiness (which affects a number of evolutions, two attacks and also allows Dratini/Dragonair/Dragonite to learn a really powerful attack)?

I think I'd like to care about these, but it's... rather difficult/pointless... although I'm sure we could figure something out... hell, happiness could be determined with diplomacy checks, and the poffins/pokeblocks/berries could give you a bonus to a dipl. check you make right then.

I assume that EVs get kicked to the curb, and when you level up, you just decide what class/feat/whatever you take. The EV system makes you want to not use Kadabra against fighting types, which is dumb -_-

yeah.

[Calibron]

I stopped paying attention to pokemon after the count jumped up from 250 to some other number, should I even try to follow this discussion?

[Koumei]

Well, before we all started discussing things here, I played around with some ideas. The five contest things all started at zero, and basically, levelling up/eating Poffins/whatever could increase them, and they gave benefits in line with Tome feats - that is to say, at maximum Cuteness, you had a number of abilities, ranging from +3 to X checks all the way to "Immune to Cha damage and disease" and the ability to use Charm Monster.

Likewise, happiness was based on "DM Fiat" until a solid mechanic could be decided on (although it should be a special inner feeling that simple Bard songs and "Crushing Despair" can't effect), where a few little benefits were given along the road for being happy, and a bit of a trade-off for sadness/anger (such as gaining damage bonuses and Rage effects, but lowering defences and having a chance of attacking your owner instead of doing as told).

I also made "Frustration" and "Return" depend on those, with maximum happiness/anger dealing 2d6/level + CHA to one target, as a 1/X rounds ability. So if you spend a lot of time pampering your Pokemon, they can really bust ass to protect you, as well as flopping around and looking cute and hoping for a tummy rub, and if you mistreat them enough then on the one hand they might fly into a rage and utterly bury your foes, but on the other hand they might also do the same to you.

---

But ultimately, I'm willing to bin all that if it's better to just streamline everything rather than trying to over-reproduce the Pokemon games.

[Prak]

Well, before we all started discussing things here, I played around with some ideas. The five contest things all started at zero, and basically, levelling up/eating Poffins/whatever could increase them, and they gave benefits in line with Tome feats - that is to say, at maximum Cuteness, you had a number of abilities, ranging from +3 to X checks all the way to "Immune to Cha damage and disease" and the ability to use Charm Monster.

based on the videogames they would only increase through poffins/pokeblocks.

Likewise, happiness was based on "DM Fiat" until a solid mechanic could be decided on (although it should be a special inner feeling that simple Bard songs and "Crushing Despair" can't effect), where a few little benefits were given along the road for being happy, and a bit of a trade-off for sadness/anger (such as gaining damage bonuses and Rage effects, but lowering defences and having a chance of attacking your owner instead of doing as told).

I also made "Frustration" and "Return" depend on those, with maximum happiness/anger dealing 2d6/level + CHA to one target, as a 1/X rounds ability. So if you spend a lot of time pampering your Pokemon, they can really bust ass to protect you, as well as flopping around and looking cute and hoping for a tummy rub, and if you mistreat them enough then on the one hand they might fly into a rage and utterly bury your foes, but on the other hand they might also do the same to you.

---

But ultimately, I'm willing to bin all that if it's better to just streamline everything rather than trying to over-reproduce the Pokemon games.

actually, I think all that should work fine, except I like the idea of spells/bardic music/etc can affect happiness.

[Username17]

I definitely think that the number of classes in the game can multiply up to a very large number. It is entirely possible to have Prestige Classes for specific evolution trees, although I would hope that it didn't quite go that far.

What is undesirable however, is to have the proliferation of damage types seen in Pokemon. Normal and Fighting damage don't have to be any different (and should not be). In either case, it's just you hitting the target, with your face (or fist, or claws, or whatever).

Basically we have Physical and Magical attacks, and we have AC, Reflex, Fort, and Will to target. Also we have a battle mat and real locations to worry about. That right there covers a lot of distinctions that all those extra attack types imply.

So seriously we should have a Dragon class. We just shouldn't have people worry about whether they have "Dragon Resistance." Because frankly the very concept of having Dragon Resistance is kind of retarded (and yes, I am aware that there are actual classes in D&D which grant Dragon Resistance, but it's still dumb).

Things which you should worry about in Pokemon D&D as to whether you have resistance to them or not:

• Cold
• Electricity
• Fire
• Physical
• Poison
• Psychic
• Water

So Acid and Stun Spore are both Poison Attacks, but the Poison class (that lets you be Ekans) and the Grass class (which lets you be Paras) can be different. So a lot of classes can get you abilities that do various kinds of damage. Vine Whip is physical, Leech Seed is Poison, Solar Beam is Fire.

Many races could come with a specific set of off-brand moves. That is, taking levels only of Grass, Bug, and Kaiju would by themselves probably not give you access to Spore at any reasonable level, but being Paras guarantees that this is delivered to you at some point.

I can see this as being a simple set of levels and moves for each race. Something like this:

Farfetch'd
1: Leek Slap
6: Slash
11: Swords Dance
16: Vorpal Blade

So your prospective Farfetch'd would just run around being a Bird class with maybe some Normal levels. But at 11th level he's get access to Swords Dance anyway even though that doesn't normally show up on the Bird list at all. In this way, different Pokemon races can feel radically different withut having a lot of rules and special cases.

-Username17

[Koumei]

Fighting was always really dumb, to me. I mean, it's good against rock. Because martial artists break bricks/boulders, yes, I get it. I understand that. Except martial artists don't break those things because it's easy - they choose to break those because it's hard, to show how strong/focused they actually are!

So because martial artists of HKAT punch boulders in half, and breaking bricks and wooden planks is considered the norm in marital arts training, to prove that they're so good they can even 1-shot things with moves that are "not very effective", they decide fighting type moves should be super effective against rock type pokemon.

It's mind numbing.

Anyway, what do we call Ghost type moves such as Nightshade and Shadow Ball? They seem closest to Psychic, from that list, although the whole "Negative Energy" thing of D&D says Cold could work. Note that "Ghost = Psychic" would make Psychic AND Ghost creatures weak against their own moves (not necessarily a bad thing), and instead of Ghost types being not very effective against Dark, there'd be full immunity.

But other than that, Ghost and Psychic tend to be strong/weak against the same types.

[Username17]

I have seriously thought about making a Darkness/Negative/Vile/Whatever damage type for Ghosts and Dark Pokemon to use (probably called Shadow, honestly). The real problem I have is that other than Game Boy GameBalance, there isn't any particular reason for most Dark attacks to do anything to Psychic, or even to be special in any way. I mean seriously, bite? WTF?

The whole line of reasoning seems to be cuttable. Instead of having a Shadow attack type, Ghosts can do Psychic or Cold (there is a serious shortage of Cold moves in basic Pokemon) depending. Most Dark moves can frankly just be Physical attacks, with some of the weirder ones getting dumped into various energy types.

-Username17

[Prak]

okay, I'm fine with folding some damage types together, but still having metric-ass loads of classes. However, I personally want some of the more out there dark moves to still be dark(or shadow, or whatever, I do like the idea of making some of the more out there ghost and dark moves the same type known as shadow.)


Should I pull out my copy of "Cute and Fuzzy Seizure Monsters"? It's a supplement for BESM about this genre and might be of some help here too.

[Surgo]

The entire post that follows could just be me being too stuck on the gameboy games and not really understanding how you intend to translate them. If that's the case, feel free to ignore it (but tell me if that's the case).

Could attacks be of more than one type that was given in your list, Frank?

Because, I mean, there are special dragon attacks out there (like Dragon Pulse) and physical fire attacks (like Fire Fang). And Fire Fang could conceivably fall under both Fire and Physical, and something emulating Dragon Pulse could do damage across like 3 or 4 different damage types.

I also think that "physical" might be just a bit too much of a catch-all category. Normal and fighting attacks should obviously go together -- but Power Whip (grass) and Earthquake (ground)? The category seems a bit too wide.

[Maxus]

The entire post that follows could just be me being too stuck on the gameboy games and not really understanding how you intend to translate them. If that's the case, feel free to ignore it (but tell me if that's the case).

Could attacks be of more than one type that was given in your list, Frank?

Because, I mean, there are special dragon attacks out there (like Dragon Pulse) and physical fire attacks (like Fire Fang). And Fire Fang could conceivably fall under both Fire and Physical, and something emulating Dragon Pulse could do damage across like 3 or 4 different damage types.

I also think that "physical" might be just a bit too much of a catch-all category. Normal and fighting attacks should obviously go together -- but Power Whip (grass) and Earthquake (ground)? The category seems a bit too wide.

I concur. So here's my proposal

There are two basic means of damage-dealing attacks:
Direct (physical), and indirect (special).

Offensive moves are divvied up based on whether you're physically hurting the enemy, or using some other means to fry them. Some attacks that are a bit ambiguous (like Blaze Kick or Fire Fang), can operate off of either stat used for synergy (which is another thing that needs to be worked out...What stats are we using?)

Beyond the physical/special distinction, you also get the attacking types, which, depending on the target's type, either:

1) Are super-effective
2) Work normally
3) Are not very effective
4) Are ignored.

Other points in no particular order:

1) We need a move list for pokemon. And what's the difference between a strong move and a weak one?
2) Are we including a means by which you can make up a pokemon, through a combination of 'type' levels and moves?
3) Turns out I still have this on my favorites list. It's got a complete Pokedex/Attackdex for all the generations. http://www.serebii.net/index2.shtml

[Username17]

Serebii is indeed a very very good Pokesource.

In any case, perhaps the easiest way to differentiate between a Special attack and a standard one is to have the physical strikes run off of Attack rolls against AC, while the magical attacks grant saves against appropriate save types. In this manner, moves like Fire Fang (an Attack roll to do Fire damage) can be easily differentiated from moves like Flamethrower (Fire Damage, Reflex Half).

-Username17

[Maxus]

Serebii is indeed a very very good Pokesource.

In any case, perhaps the easiest way to differentiate between a Special attack and a standard one is to have the physical strikes run off of Attack rolls against AC, while the magical attacks grant saves against appropriate save types. In this manner, moves like Fire Fang (an Attack roll to do Fire damage) can be easily differentiated from moves like Flamethrower (Fire Damage, Reflex Half).

-Username17

The problem is that there's a lot of energy-type attacks. I mean, I'd put the default as a ranged touch attack, and take into account the defense bonus a pokemon gains as it levels up.

And save the make-a-save attacks for more rare attacks.

And that still leaves open what stats synergize with what types. It's fine for Strength to contribute to physical attacks, but what stats do special attacks use? Intelligence, wisdom, or charisma?