Mask_De_H wrote:First, are you saying a behavioral psychiatrist wouldn't know how to do good math? Or that it doesn't take some understanding of math and human behavior to get the number of cards per hand/in deck/in play right?
The point is that math isn't the beginning and the end.
Indeed, that Frank thinks that math sells and is used as an actual major marketing point for all games when pretty much no game ever literally places it in the packaging should point as to how it's probably only important here in the context of 4venger arguments than a serious communication point. It's very myopic and in no way reflects how modern games are designed.
The reality is that math doesn't sell. It's instead an
implicit expectation that the math works. That's why when I see a Reiner Knizia (a mathematician designer) game I know the math is balanced but am unsure about everything else and probably won't buy it - because frankly a lot of his games tend to be very boring.
The advertising moreover revolves primarily around theme and artwork. That this is true should be blatantly obvious even back in the early 2000s when Magic was about the only major tabletop game with regular design articles - as Magic is a game that literally devotes half of each card to artwork!
And the same is repeated across almost every game of every genre. 4E cover? Mostly artwork. Boring Euro game? Some European Trading Guy Artwork. That's the actual reality of advertising games.
And what do you think gets tweaked under the hood in response to playtest feedback? Pictures?
You're trying to prove a point to seem like the wizened "real" gamer against Frank's number autism, but it's a bad point. TTRPGs are games that run on numbers, as are most boardgames.
First of all, I'm not saying I'm a "wizened real gamer". But if your gut is telling you that then maybe you should actually consider
why your gut feels that way. It seems to point to your own insecurity about your own gaming chops more than anything else.
Moreover, your main position is very misleading. Games
don't run on numbers, because the numbers can't run by themselves in a tabletop setting. This is not a computer simulation. A game only comes alive if the players
use those rules.
That's why modern design is based on human emotions and experiences. If the humans
playing the game don't have an emotional experience then they'll shrug and not play the game again. Making sure the humans playing the game have a good experience is the ultimate end goal. The math is merely a means to that end, and sometimes it's a kind of means that's not needed for a particular game.
For instance two of the biggest boardgames in recent years - Cards Against Humanity and Codenames - barely has any math at all. They instead run almost purely based on the player's experiences and how they can associate different words and phrases together.
By contrast when talking about RPGs I rarely hear that players enjoy how they got a +20 bonus on a roll. Rather, what players talk about is the action they did and its effects.
For example: The bard saw a bloody encounter with an Ogre coming, tried to charm the Ogre, and rolled a 20. The DM then says the Ogre is now their friend and the players breathe a sigh of relief, have a good laugh, and congratulate the bard's player.
Yeah, it's totally not how Diplomacy should work as written but when I talk to actual current RPG players these are the things they tend to remember. It has very, very little to do with how the math is awesome.