4E Excerpt: Paragon Paths

[SphereOfFeetMan]

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4ex/20080423a

I'll quote the parts that were most interesting to me:

Here are the fundamentals: You select a paragon path at 11th level. You gain access to two or more paragon path features at 11th level, including a paragon path feature that let’s you broaden the use of an action point with an additional benefit. You also gain another paragon path feature at 16th level. In addition, selecting a paragon path gives you access to one encounter power at 11th, one utility power at 12th, and a daily power at 20th. All of which looks like this:

11th: Paragon path feature
11th: Paragon path action point feature
11th: Paragon path encounter power
12th: Paragon path utility power
16th: Paragon path feature
20th: Paragon path daily power

...

As shown on the Character Advancement table on page 29 of the Player's Handbook, your paragon path gives you new capabilities from 11th level through 20th level. But adopting a paragon path doesn’t mean you stop advancing in your class. All the powers and features you gain from your paragon path come in addition to your class powers and features, not instead of them. You don’t stop being a cleric when you become a radiant servant. Instead, you gain new capabilities that extend, enhance, and complement the abilities of your class.

So, Paragon path abilities seem to be pretty sparse. It looks like these paths are like paint jobs on the base classes. I suppose it is much easier to balance that way. On the other hand...

Fighter: Kensei
“My weapon and I are as one.”

Prerequisite: Fighter class

You study an ancient form of martial training that makes you one with your chosen weapon, creating a combination of destruction that few foes can long stand against.

Kensei Path Features

Kensei Control Action (11th level): You can spend an action point to reroll one attack roll, damage roll, skill check, or ability check, instead of taking an extra action.

Kensei Focus (11th level): You gain a +1 bonus to attack rolls with a melee weapon of your choice.

Kensei Mastery (16th level): You gain a +4 bonus to damage rolls with the same weapon you selected for Kensei Focus. If you ever use a different type of weapon, you lose this benefit, and the benefit for Kensei Focus, until you take a short rest, during which time you reattune yourself to your chosen weapon with a short meditation.

...Goddamn.

Also, some Paragon feat abilities:

Name Prerequisites Benefit

Armor Specialization (Chainmail) Dex 15, training with chainmail +1 to AC with chainmail, reduce check penalty by 1

Seize the Moment Dex 17 Gain combat advantage over foe with lower initiative

Steady Shooter Con 15 +3 damage with crossbow if you don’t move

Underfoot Halfling, trained in Acrobatics Move through spaces of Large or larger creatures

Yes, those seem balanced against each other.

Oh, and the one-round bullshit bonus bookkeeping is present here as well:

Just Shelter (16th level): Allies adjacent to you are immune to fear and charm effects and receive a +1 bonus to saving throws.

[Absentminded_Wizard]

I figure your paragon and epic paths are going to give you benefits similar to what your race does from levels 1-10. The thought process in 4e design seems to have been that you'll always have something giving you a few distinct features beyond your class at various levels of development. From 1-10, this is your race, from 11-20, your paragon path, and from 21-30 your epic path.

They seem to have gimped these abilities pretty good, though. I mean, is +1 to hit and +4 to damage really worth the single-weapon limitation at 16th level?

[Voss]

Yes. Because almost nothing has DR in 4e. In fact it seems to be gone entirely, and a few things get Resist (weapons): 5 or something similar.

Whats notable about the paths is the action point usage. They seem to have trouble balancing those. The paths that get +4 to all attacks when they use one are really good- it means you can spam at least 2 encounter or daily powers with a much greater chance to hit. The kensai's reroll is also good, for much the same reason. The ranger paths 3 space teleport? A little weak in comparison.

And despite the fact that I like the 4e warlock, they really feel like Sailor Moon-esque magical girls.

[Koumei]

And despite the fact that I like the 4e warlock, they really feel like Sailor Moon-esque magical girls.

Let me just ask, if I may, how that is a bad thing. At all.

[Voss]

Oh I don't think it is. But I'm fucked up that way.
Dancing in my head is an image of a pair of warlocks, 2 clerics and a wizard all spinning about, posing and blasting enemies with beam attacks.

The star pact and the quote on the Doomshaper really made me think of the last arc of sailor moon- specifically Sailor Galaxia and the 'Zero Star: Sagitarrius'

[Koumei]

*laughs* That could totally work.

I was going to write up a Magical Girl class based just on that, but I realised it'd be tricky to provide them with a substantial list of level-appropriate abilities that see them through their career.

[CatharzGodfoot]

It sounds like using an action point will get you an extra action. I'd say that keeping that extra action and getting +4 to attack rolls is probably more useful than loosing the action to get a reroll.

But why don't any of them have 12th or 20th level abilities?

[Voss]

It sounds like using an action point will get you an extra action. I'd say that keeping that extra action and getting +4 to attack rolls is probably more useful than loosing the action to get a reroll.

Usually, yes. But if you're blowing one of your few encounter or daily powers and the dice just fluke out on you, a reroll is a nice thing.
But yes, its better to nova with multiple encounter or daily powers with a +20% chance of pulling them off.

WotC still struggles with the economy of power inherent in their systems.
Extra actions? Awesome
Extra actions at a bonus? Even more awesome
Rerolls? Good, but not as awesome as the above.
Moving an extra 3 squares? Weaksauce.

But why don't any of them have 12th or 20th level abilities?

They decided not to show most of the actual powers, (Just the ranger guy's), and focused on the 'path features'. They've done this with most of the excerpts so far. But I'm a little surprised at how not over the top these paths are. 3 'path' features and 3 powers over 10 levels isn't likely to explode the game.

Though I don't like the fact that one paladin ability negates two-thirds of the warlock's path.


And, on the feats Sphere mentions, yeah, one of those stands out. +2 to hit if you can jack your init score? Rather good. Especially if you're a rogue and automatically sneak attack once per round because of it.
The chainmail one is worrying, because it speaks to stacking bonuses again. Like the warpriest heavy armor thing.

[CatharzGodfoot]

Moving an extra 3 squares? Weaksauce.

It's 'get an extra action and move 3 squares'.

[Voss]

Compared to an extra action and normal action at +4, its still weaksauce.
Keep in mind you're just using your standard action and a free action from the AP. You can still move normally anyway. Given the short range of 4e combats, that 3 square move isn't going to be that big of deal, most of the time.

[Bigode]

You might've missed the best part, at the bottom: "Be sure to return Friday for a look at power cards!" Fvck.

[Voss]

I didn't miss it.
I was just sacrificing a goat in hopes that it isn't as stupid as I think it is.

Though if it is what I suspect it is, it actually isn't that stupid from a business perspective. Their target audience is just that stupid, and will buy any shit flung in their direction.

Bonus points if they're *collectible* power cards, though.

[JonSetanta]

It bugs me that there's no utility powers for L1, and yet suddenly 2 at L2.
The progressions are, once again, stuttered.
Access to encounter/day/utility powers has patterns but it's like the designers have no care for what's possible at each individual level, as long as it all ends well by L30.

[Koumei]

Well, let's be honest here: that's all people care about on CharOp. The important thing is that, at level 20, you have +16 BAB and 9th level spells and your build works then. Even if you are shit from levels 1-19.

So they're just doing the same thing, really, paying no heed to levels 1-29 as long as 30 balances out.

And what Paladin ability negates two thirds of the Warlock's path? I'm not actually reading their shit.

[shau]

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4ex/20080423a



Also, some Paragon feat abilities:

Name Prerequisites Benefit

Armor Specialization (Chainmail) Dex 15, training with chainmail +1 to AC with chainmail, reduce check penalty by 1

Seize the Moment Dex 17 Gain combat advantage over foe with lower initiative

Steady Shooter Con 15 +3 damage with crossbow if you don’t move

Underfoot Halfling, trained in Acrobatics Move through spaces of Large or larger creatures

Yes, those seem balanced against each other.

Maybe I am slow, but I am not seeing the lack of balance here. Honestly, they all seem uniformly terrible. The first one is basically dodge, the second gives you the "combat advantage" whatever that is, the third one is crossbow based and therefore sucks automatically and the last seems kinda interesting but you are much better off taking skill focus:tumble if you want to dance around other people.

[SunTzuWarmaster]

I'm with Shau, none of these abilities appear to let my warrior stab a cyclops in the eye, do a ninja backflip off of a dragon, hamstring a human, crush a smaller monster under my foot, or turn an attack into a flying front flip for the enemy. All of the above examples are awesome (the last is granted at level 1 from a FnK Monk), +4 to attack, 3 extra movement spaces, or +3 damage while shooting and not moving with a crossbow just don't farking cut it. Seriously, screw 4e.

[Voss]

combat advantage gives +2 to hit, plus any special effects like sneak attack.

It pretty much covers flanking and flat footed and all that, so getting +2 to hit if you optimized your initiative is pretty much better than anything else. Of course most monsters as you go up in level have absurd init scores, at least the ones we've seen. So you're going to have to optimize it just to keep up.

Even so, +2 to hit, ~50+% of the time is better than any of those other options.


@Sigma- where are you getting 2 utility powers? The tiers of play article?

That actually doesn't list how many- it lists what level you get them.
So a 2nd level character would have 1 encounter, 1 daily and 1 utility.
An 11th level character would have 4 encounter, 3 daily, and 3 utility
1 of the encounter powers from the paragon path, and the others at the listed levels. At 13th, you supposedly start upgrading powers- replacing the 1st level encounter power with a 13th level one.

So you seriously cap out with 4 encounter powers, 4 daily and 7 utility powers. And apparently just the 2 at-wills you started with (though they might be swappable at some point.

In one way, its a good progression- you don't have so many encounter powers that you're never using your at-will powers. Swapping out allows it to change, which is good, but you still have to live with your 'attack routines' for a very long time. And that poor ranger paragon path has to live with the fact that he can do a tiny bit of damage to 9 squares all the way to level 30. Its sad.


@Suntzu-
You are honestly the first person I've seen to reject 4e because it isn't over the top enough. Not a judgement, but most of the complaints go completely the other way- that its too wuxia/anime/WoW-ish/raped my mom/destroyed life as we know it/eats babies.

[Cielingcat]

It bugs me that there's no utility powers for L1, and yet suddenly 2 at L2.
The progressions are, once again, stuttered.
Access to encounter/day/utility powers has patterns but it's like the designers have no care for what's possible at each individual level, as long as it all ends well by L30.

It's like they're copying WoW without realizing that their game does not, in fact, put the vast majority of its content at level 30/60/70/80.

[Voss]

That... doesn't make sense.
You max out the number of encounter powers at 11th level, dailies at 20th.
Utility options keep growing until 26th.

But 3rd and 7th are significant milestones when it comes to encounter abilities, and by 9th you've got 75% of your encounter and daily powers. At the late levels you just have the option of upgrading what you have.

That doesn't strike me as backloaded content.

[Username17]

You are honestly the first person I've seen to reject 4e because it isn't over the top enough. Not a judgement, but most of the complaints go completely the other way- that its too wuxia/anime/WoW-ish/raped my mom/destroyed life as we know it/eats babies.

No, I hate it because it's incredibly limited in its vision. Characters don't get invisibility until the teens. And even then, it's shit invisibility where you aren't seen for a couple of minutes, tops. The only thing in 4e D&D which is fantastic is the incredible resilience everything has. While a very low level character can be dropped fifty feet onto iron spikes and be in fighting shape within minutes, you have to be near epic to actually have any mythical adventure.

I want to fight minotaurs and chimera. I don't want to have to practically ascend to godhood before I'm allowed to fly.

-Username17

[Voss]

I get most of that, or at least why its an issue.

But this...

While a very low level character can be dropped fifty feet onto iron spikes and be in fighting shape within minutes

except for the fact that it can happen at level 1 rather than level 4, it isn't any different from 3rd edition, or any other. (50' with spikes seems to average about 28-35 damage). And personally, I'm not a fan of being 4x as tough with 3 level gains.


Personally, I like some of the power tweaks. In combat the healing isn't so bad. You can heal yourself once, and you can't do it if you're unconscious, and the cleric can heal people twice during an encounter. That limits the jack in box feel a lot, unless you have a party made up almost entirely of clerics and warlords.

I don't mind character flight getting pushed off until mid levels. Minotaurs and chimeras are still available to be fought, and best of all, wizards and clerics are finally playing the same game as everyone else. I'll make the mental adjustments for D&D abilities moving to higher levels for that one alone. The solo monsters are a weird issue- they suck, because they make the combats a boring fucking grind (the same way most 3e combats are if the party doesn't take save or lose/suck/die spells)- you just surround the beastie and kick the shit out of it. But the normal monsters are a lot more fun. I can't remember the last time I had a decent party vs. large group encounter in D&D that was actually worth noting. Wizard drops an AoE and its done. 4th has a lot of room for running about, clever tactics and 'Oh shit, we've got to save Bob' moments.

There are quite a few details I think they fucked up on, and they went seriously screwy in some of the flavor areas and the really stupid shit like NPCs can't be rezzed unless they're 'speshul', but watching the trainwreck that is Paizo's pathfinder... well. It could be a hell of a lot worse. I'll take the headache of the stupid ass 'save ends' durations over 'sorcerers with claws- that fixes 'em'

[JonSetanta]

Voss: Look at the WOTC page. The power slots have a progression chart somewhere halfway down.

[SunTzuWarmaster]

I like the in-combat healing. However, coming from FnK, you don't get any honest to god ABILITIES.

Let's take a quick example of a Fighter-type character, which lacks the utility of a wizard. Let us examine the Monk.

At level 2 it gets the ability to jump to crazy heights. At level 1 it grants the ability to move through opponents squares (take note, level 1). At level 9 (the equivalent of level 20?), the Monk may teleport as a swift action. The Monk, at this level, has already been hitting monsters for Con/Movement damage, and flipping would-be attackers over his knee. These are good abilities.

In 4e, you are lucky to get +4 to damage as a class feature. Not "you may cut through magic barriers", not "you can parry spells directed at you with your katana", not "you are immune from being stunned/held", not "you don't have to charge in a straight line", not "you may cast Control Weather at will", not "you are resistant to divination" (level FOUR Assassin, I might add), not "make a Fort Save instead of a Will Save while Raging". +4 to damage. If you are lucky. In F&K, when you gain a level, it freaking MEANS something. It means you can cast more spells, or that you have the Edge against better opponents, and you get a Real Abilities (TM). Let me list of things that are not Real Abilities (TM):

- Armor Specialization (Chainmail) Dex 15, training with chainmail +1 to AC with chainmail, reduce check penalty by 1
- Seize the Moment Dex 17 Gain combat advantage (+2 to hit and SA?) over foe with lower initiative
- Steady Shooter Con 15 +3 damage with crossbow if you don’t move
- Underfoot Halfling, trained in Acrobatics Move through spaces of Large or larger creatures
- Kensei Control Action (11th level): You can spend an action point to reroll one attack roll, damage roll, skill check, or ability check, instead of taking an extra action.
- Kensei Focus (11th level): You gain a +1 bonus to attack rolls with a melee weapon of your choice.
- Kensei Mastery (16th level): You gain a +4 bonus to damage rolls with the same weapon you selected for Kensei Focus. If you ever use a different type of weapon, you lose this benefit, and the benefit for Kensei Focus, until you take a short rest, during which time you reattune yourself to your chosen weapon with a short meditation.

These are secondary abilities being sold to us as primary abilities.

These suck, flat out. As in, if someone were to add this abilities as class features to a class that I was taking and tell me that they were once/day, I would tell them not to write them down because it wasn't worth their time. +4 to damage at level ~10 (old system) is not worth the F&K Combat School where you get +2/+2 at level one. As an equivalent level, this feat will also grant the ability to Daze opponents, +4 to disarm checks (against you), and the ability to take 10 on attack rolls. What is more is that wizards is offering these abilities as class features (that you can ONLY get from being a Kensai), while they are worse than feats. This makes me think that feats will be worth even less that +4 damage, and it makes me sad.

Dungeons and Dragons is an awesome game of cooperative storytelling. It is one of the few games where you can swing across the ballroom on a chandelier and rescue a princess from a would-be rapist troglodyte by stabbing it in the face. It is one of the few games where your sheer force of will can cause enemies to burst into flames. It is one of the few games where you can fly through the air on a fantasy flying horse, and jump onto a monster's face before using your sword to shoot a lightning bolt at another enemy. You can fly, levitate, plane hop, fight extra-dimensional monsters, change the weather, or perform in the streets long enough that the king recognizes your brilliance. You can become a leader of men and build your own keep before leaving it to fight a god. Wizards is attempting to take these things away, and they are doing so effectively. +4 to hit is not equivalent to the following ability:
Conflagration (Sp): At 10th level, a Fire Mage can surround himself with a nimbus of flames that extends
for 10’ in all directions from his person. All other targets in this area suffer a d10 of Fire Damage per level,
but are entitled to a Reflex Save (DC 10 + 1/2 Level + Charisma Modifier). In addition, a Fire Mage can cast
fireshield at will (Hot Shield only).

I think that that pretty much sums it up.

[Voss]

Voss: Look at the WOTC page. The power slots have a progression chart somewhere halfway down.

I found what I think you're referring to, but you're reading it wrong.

The board its the formating, but this, right?
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4ex/20080416a

You don't get 2 utility powers at level 2, you get a level 2 utility power at level 2. You get your second utility power at level 6.

The text right above it is helpful-

6. Choose Powers. You know two at-will powers from your class; remember to increase damage if your level is 21st or higher. The Powers by Class Level table summarizes the number and levels of powers you have in the other categories. These totals are not cumulative. The table assumes that you replace your lowest-level powers with those at higher levels, but you can keep lower-level ones if you wish.

@Sun- fine, I get it. You don't like the scale or flavor. Thats fine. It just wasn't an attitude I've seen much of before. Barring Frank, of course.

Though personally, I tend to view it more as moving away from the bizarre aberration that is third edition (as well as toning down the spellcasters, which is new for D&D). Giant piles of bonuses and mechanics-dependent special effects are a 3e and F&K thing. I'm much more comfortable taking shit away from the spellcasters and toning it down than keeping it at silly level.

I'm comfortable with Beowulf wrestling Grendel in a fight to the death and ripping his arm off. I think 4e can manage that. I'm not as comfortable with Beowulf raping Grendel's mom to death with his energy penis. Thats where 3e heads if you try to balance warriors with the levels spellcasters are at. My personal preference is that goes away.

I don't much like TWF, but I'm comfortable with the powers that are being display on the ranger path- he runs into a group of enemies and hacks away. He can drop minions and weaklings, but real opponents are going to take more than that. But it can work descriptively- it can be an amazing action sequence if you describe it right, (but that exists outside the mechanics in any system) and he isn't being shown up by the wizard simply snapping his fingers and all of them drop dead. Thats a major change that I think will make the game more fun for me.

[Bigode]

@Sun- fine, I get it. You don't like the scale or flavor. Thats fine. It just wasn't an attitude I've seen much of before. Barring Frank, of course.

I only didn't voice it because Frank already did it better than I would; the thought that someone with a brain in the right place would disagree never even crossed my head, so no reason to even say it here (or so I thought), and I've indeed talked variously about it on MSN.

Though personally, I tend to view it more as moving away from the bizarre aberration that is third edition (as well as toning down the spellcasters, which is new for D&D). Giant piles of bonuses and mechanics-dependent special effects are a 3e and F&K thing. I'm much more comfortable taking shit away from the spellcasters and toning it down than keeping it at silly level.

They're a "F&K thing" only because they had to be to work with 3.5 ...

I'm comfortable with Beowulf wrestling Grendel in a fight to the death and ripping his arm off. I think 4e can manage that. I'm not as comfortable with Beowulf raping Grendel's mom to death with his energy penis. Thats where 3e heads if you try to balance warriors with the levels spellcasters are at. My personal preference is that goes away.

The problem's that nothing of that's even as interesting as a psychic warrior, for example, so the issue's isn't "the classes aren't crazy like spellcasters", but "they don't do anything worth talking about".