OgreBattle wrote:Yeah TN7 is a better way to explain it.
How about the Old Warhams strength vs toughness chart
There’s a nice parallel that S=T is a 4+, but “add strength to d6 result vs TN” is an obvious to grasp equation.
So the equavent of “wounds on 4+” would be “Strengh rating of +3 vs toughness rating of 7”
Years of warhammer though have made me just like having equal numbers for s and t, even though it’s not as mathematically obvious at a glance.
The thing about Warhams S v T chart was that it was a chart. Things got real weird when you got near the end of the RNG. In the editions I played, S3 would wound T5 or T6 on a 6+, but it wouldn't wound T7 at all. It meant that as far as Spess Marines were concerned, T6 and T7 were the same, but T8 was "LOL, Get Rekt" territory.
I don't recommend that sort of thing. I think Warmachine's 2D6 vs TN system was better inherently - though obviously it was harder to scale that shit up to having 80 models on the table.
to be fair, the chart was 4+ 5+ 6+ 6+ - for every line - so yeah, you couldn't always wound, making some weapons flatly ineffective against some targets (which I personally liked! wound anything on 6s is the current paradigm, and it's frustrating ).
So Weapon Strength +D6 vs Toughness, where all toughness values are 4 higher that current would essentially reproduce the table's effect, but without the lookup component. Curved RNGs can't really work on a model-by-model basis, can they? Too many rolls.
Way back when in an older edition of WHFB, it was probably to have modifiers to your BS meaning you needed a 7 or more on d6. To do that, if you got a 6, you could roll again, and 4+ on the second roll counted as a 7, IIRC.
Perhaps something like that could work, you'd just take all the 6s and roll them again and look for 4 or more. Though, personally I liked the idea that some things were just immune to less powerful weapons.
All this talk of resolution mechanics for wargames has me thinking - the mainstream wargames I'm familiar with tend to resolve the actions of X doodz by rolling X dice. This is a quite primitive level of abstraction.
Does anyone know of wargames that involve lots of models of d00dz that represent the actions of those d00dz with some other mechanic, such as a variable TN roll of a fixed number of dice, or perhaps a smaller dice pool that scales with the number of d00dz at a scale lower than 1:1?
Regarding Warhams and similar, if you really wanted to keep your results directly related to the exact number of models left on the table, you could certainly replace the Xd6 roll with a single curved RNG and have an index of tables you use to look up the number of hits for a unit of the given size. This now causes the number of table lookups to increase from 1 to 2, since you still need the original BS and S vs T tables, but eliminates the rolling of 20d6 for a unit of Guards, Gaunts, or Boyz. You might save enough time on the counting of hits and "oh shit that one rolled off the table" for the exchange to be worthwhile. If you have big enough pages you could actually arrange your secondary tables in a big ol' meta-table, where the columns are your TN (2+, 3+, 4+, 5+, 6+) and the rows are the number of d00dz in your unit.
Example: I have a unit of 18 Guardsmen BS3 & S3 shooting at whatever T4. Instead of consulting the BS table, rolling 18d6, and hunting for the 4+, I refer to the BS table, refer to the new table array searching for the sub-table that corresponds to "4+, 18 shots" and roll 3d6. I come up with a 12, which the sub-table tells me is worth 10 hits.
The distributions obviously will not map 1:1 between the original Xd6 and the 3d6 RNG. Variations in the number of models that are small relative to the number of outcomes on the curved RNG will probably not have a way to be reflected in the mapping of RNG outputs to the number of hits they are translated to, which also is kind of a bummer if you want every d00d to count. Also this would require you to print out a metric shit-ton of tables as a tabletop reference, which has its own flaws. Still, if you're regularly dealing with large (10+) units of d00dz, there may be some merit here.
Without a doubt, though, there are still more abstract ways to do this that don't require an entire ream of printer paper for mandatory table aids.
Last edited by Mord on Fri Aug 24, 2018 5:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
Mord wrote:Does anyone know of wargames that involve lots of models of d00dz that represent the actions of those d00dz with some other mechanic, such as a variable TN roll of a fixed number of dice, or perhaps a smaller dice pool that scales with the number of d00dz at a scale lower than 1:1?
Hm, Field of Glory abstracts hundreds of dudes into a base with ~3 models on it, but you're still going to be fielding 30-70 bases, so I think it counts as a lot of models. Rolls involve ≤2 dice per relevant base.
Fantasy Warlord was super deterministic. Every model had a to-hit %, and resolution was to add up all the %s, divide by 100, deal that many hits, and roll under the remainder on percentile for a 1-hit variance.
I’ve see people play Axi Allies like that, and seen online 40k charts for averaging results.
I feel rolling a bucket is part of the fun, but the 40k rules set works best for skirmish of maybe 30 guys on one side at most and not 100 dudes with a giant resin model worth 200 dudes.
Battletech you only ever Roll 2D6. And your actions have variable TNs.
But probably not what you are looking for i guess.
Mainly because i would not even force Hitler to try and do mass army combat using those rules.
Welcome, to IronHell.
Shrapnel wrote:
TFwiki wrote:Soon is the name of the region in the time-domain (familiar to all marketing departments, and to the moderators and staff of Fun Publications) which sees release of all BotCon news, club exclusives, and other fan desirables. Soon is when then will become now.
Peculiar properties of spacetime ensure that the perception of the magnitude of Soon is fluid and dependent, not on an individual's time-reference, but on spatial and cultural location. A marketer generally perceives Soon as a finite, known, yet unspeakable time-interval; to a fan, the interval appears greater, and may in fact approach the infinite, becoming Never. Once the interval has passed, however, a certain time-lensing effect seems to occur, and the time-interval becomes vanishingly small. We therefore see the strange result that the same fragment of spacetime may be observed, in quick succession, as Soon, Never, and All Too Quickly.
Mord wrote:Does anyone know of wargames that involve lots of models of d00dz that represent the actions of those d00dz with some other mechanic, such as a variable TN roll of a fixed number of dice, or perhaps a smaller dice pool that scales with the number of d00dz at a scale lower than 1:1?
Sorta. The first thing I thought of was Battlefleet Gothic, in which fighters were useful against bombers and torpedoes and stuff, but not really against ships. You can use them to help you against ships, giving you a bonus to damage caused by other ships or bombers, IIRC.
Also quite a few things in older 40k in which you'd have one important model and a bunch of minions. They had their own stats like everyone else, but generally were only there to give a bonus to the important one. Techmarines getting a +1 to repair things for every servitor they had, for example.
While we are talking about theoretical game mechanics, I just had a thought on how to do aid another. The current system works well for groups of one expert and many dabblers, but fails when there are multiple characters of similar proficiency, because it is usually better for each to roll separately.
All players who want to work on a task declare that they are doing so. Then, the player with the lowest modifier rolls. the Player with the next highest modifier then rolls, rerolling any result that is lower than the last player. this continues until the player with the highest modifier rolls, with their result being compared to the DC.
virgil wrote:Lovecraft didn't later add a love triangle between Dagon, Chtulhu, & the Colour-Out-of-Space; only to have it broken up through cyber-bullying by the King in Yellow.
FrankTrollman wrote:If your enemy is fucking Gravity, are you helping or hindering it by putting things on high shelves? I don't fucking know! That's not even a thing. Your enemy can't be Gravity, because that's stupid.
i'm not sure how your question makes any sense, cause as far as i remember, there's no "getting kicked out of the game because of a dark side-threshold" and i don't think there ever was. maybe you are confusing ffg 's with another star wars-rpg's set of rules?
dark and light side thresholds just modify how you activate your force powers and change your stats, there's no "this character is so evul he's now an npc" in ffg star wars. dark side characters work just fine.
shlominus wrote:i'm not sure how your question makes any sense, cause as far as i remember, there's no "getting kicked out of the game because of a dark side-threshold" and i don't think there ever was. maybe you are confusing ffg 's with another star wars-rpg's set of rules?
We don't really have a "general" thread here, but this seems like the closest equivalent.
"Kill Code", the new matrix sourcebook for SR5 has been released. Reactions are lukewarm. Shadowrun community seems to be kinda dying. Dumpshock is very dead.
Last edited by Longes on Mon Sep 03, 2018 10:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
Longes wrote:We don't really have a "general" thread here, but this seems like the closest equivalent.
"Kill Code", the new matrix sourcebook for SR5 has been released. Reactions are lukewarm. Shadowrun community seems to be kinda dying. Dumpshock is very dead.
Dumpshock is deader than dead, wow. Just now I popped over to see if there were reviews of Kill Code...nothing. Did alot of people migrate to the new SR forums or are those dead too? I guess I kinda don't care, just morbidly curious
Koumei: and if I wanted that, I'd take some mescaline and run into the park after watching a documentary about wasps. PhoneLobster: DM : Mr Monkey doesn't like it. Eldritch : Mr Monkey can do what he is god damn told. MGuy: The point is to normalize 'my' point of view. How the fuck do you think civil rights occurred? You think things got this way because people sat down and fucking waited for public opinion to change?
I don't even really think it's migration, honestly. It's been nearly a decade since the shitstorm that spawned the official boards so it's not like they actually needed any of us old relics to keep their numbers up. Personally, I never really gave the official forum a chance. After all, the company had burned so many bridges and the product has been shit for a while. Plus, they have threads split into like 20 categories for some dumb ass reason.
shlominus wrote:i'm not sure how your question makes any sense, cause as far as i remember, there's no "getting kicked out of the game because of a dark side-threshold" and i don't think there ever was. maybe you are confusing ffg 's with another star wars-rpg's set of rules?
That was a WEG STAR WARS rule.
Game On,
fbmf
Also d20, d20R, and Saga (and Saga's threshold was equal to your Wisdom score which was... silly, both mechanically and thematically).
Last edited by RelentlessImp on Mon Sep 03, 2018 10:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I think the surest sign of the death of Dumpshock is that I honestly don't even know where any of the big names went or what the final straws actually were. In retrospect, I'm sure the drama I was involved with was probably the beginning of the collapse, but it's ten years on and I doubt anyone would be able to draw a hard line under a point where things actually stopped. It still hasn't completely closed its doors - it's just that 4 days into September no one has posted a single post about the current edition or even the edition before.
But let's be real: Catalyst Shadowrun materials are so shit that I don't even bother acquiring them to make fun of them. They might as well be Onyx Fucking Path. Even the people who took the company's side don't actually keep up with this shit.
FrankTrollman wrote:But let's be real: Catalyst Shadowrun materials are so shit that I don't even bother acquiring them to make fun of them.
/srg/ doesn't either. In fact it tells every newbie that you shouldn't buy CGL books.
On this book: This book constantly provides shit where it implies that things commonly accepted are wrong. Like that Agents can't run on modified Commlinks with a program slot. Or that teamwork tests in the matrix aren't allowed.
Mord, on Cosmic Horror wrote:Today if I say to the man on the street, "Did you know that the world you live in is a fragile veneer of normality over an uncaring universe, that we could all die at any moment at the whim of beings unknown to us for reasons having nothing to do with ourselves, and that as far as the rest of the universe is concerned, nothing anyone ever did with their life has ever mattered?" his response, if any, will be "Yes, of course; now if you'll excuse me, I need to retweet Sonic the Hedgehog." What do you even do with that?
JigokuBosatsu wrote:"In Hell, The Revolution Will Not Be Affordable"
Yeah, dumpshock is slowly dieing.
For a short time, SR4 brought back some activity back then.
But SR5 was just not different enough from SR4 and certainly not good enough to actually warrant a switch for most people i guess.
And at some point, all the theorycrafting has been done.
All the newbie comprehension questions have been answered.
Welcome, to IronHell.
Shrapnel wrote:
TFwiki wrote:Soon is the name of the region in the time-domain (familiar to all marketing departments, and to the moderators and staff of Fun Publications) which sees release of all BotCon news, club exclusives, and other fan desirables. Soon is when then will become now.
Peculiar properties of spacetime ensure that the perception of the magnitude of Soon is fluid and dependent, not on an individual's time-reference, but on spatial and cultural location. A marketer generally perceives Soon as a finite, known, yet unspeakable time-interval; to a fan, the interval appears greater, and may in fact approach the infinite, becoming Never. Once the interval has passed, however, a certain time-lensing effect seems to occur, and the time-interval becomes vanishingly small. We therefore see the strange result that the same fragment of spacetime may be observed, in quick succession, as Soon, Never, and All Too Quickly.
). 
