Moe to sexy girls 'color' wheel

[OgreBattle]

So that color wheel thread got me thinking on a color wheel determined not just by 'elemental affinity' but archtypes of cutie moe to sexy girls

Shrine Maidens is definitely up there, so an alignment of purity. I feel they have enough overlap with Nuns.

Monster Girls, succubus- A classic, so some kinda debauchery faction. Though can be split between monster girls who live in houses with humanoid legs and monster girls who live in the wilderness and don't have humanoid legs

Grease smeared Mechanic Girls- a tech faction. A forging faction with magic then allows for flaming spirit girls of the forge but that could also fit in...

Mostly Naked Nature Spirits- so a trees and water faction. Maybe mountains go in here too if volcano spirit girls are there too. Hmmm monster girls also fall in here.

Uniformed, Glasses girls- Serious scientist girls, uniform girls, a faction that focuses on strict heirarchy and moving up said hierarchy. Militaristic or modernistic. Prussian male uniforms for the Oscars.

Clumsy Girls- colorless, can fit into any of the above

[maglag]

Maids, less purity, more devotion to a specific person.

Noble sophisticated girls.

Dancer girls/cheerleaders.

Martial arts/warrior girls, both unarmed and with weapons.

Knight girls with actual pratical armor, devoted to a cause, somewhere between shrine maidens and warrior girls.

Magic girls.

Robot/golem girls, built by somebody else.

Undead girls since undead are usually considered different enough from other monsters. Zombie girl, vampire girl.

[DrPraetor]

You're mixing levels of abstraction here.

So, for example, the gothic loli *style* would mostly show up in team undead, presumably, along with goth girls, a different style; but "noble sophisticated" is presumably all the same *style* of girl, reading at outdoor cafes or going horseback riding or whatever.

[Username17]

I kinda feel like this thread is a joke, but actually this is probably a more profitable way to approach your card suits than the other thread.

Now the first thing I'd say is that if you're going to define your suits thematically that you're going to need to define the scope of that thematic space. First and most obviously you're going to have to determine what each suit's "basic cute girl with a sword (or whatever)" is like, and also what their powerful women and potentially game ending threat women look like. But also you're going to have to think of what kind of thematic space your game is going to aspire to, and thus how much thematic drift the various card suits are going to have in their respective cute girl access.

So let's consider two games: MtG and L5R. In L5R you can distinguish a Mantis Clan girl from a Crab clan girl because the Mantis Clan girl has green and yellow armor and is wielding two kama, while the Crab Clan girl is wearing blue and red armor and is wielding a tetsubo. That kind of narrow thematic control is possible because L5R stays inside its thematic concept of generic Asian flavor shogunate period warfare. In MtG you got Egyptian sets and Indian Cyberpunk sets, and Age of Sail Dinosaurs sets and so on and so on. In such a game you can't distinguish card suits solely based on Asian weapon choices, because not all of the characters come from card sets where people use Asian weapons.

So let's think about your proposed factions: Purity, Chaos, Tech, Nature, and Law. Whenever you propose a five-faction setup for a card game, comparisons to MtG are unavoidable. And in this case the comparison is very easy because essentially what you've done is combine Black and Red in order to have room to divide up White into Clerics and Soldiers. This is very defensible, since of course Black doesn't have a strong creature association (most of their "dudes" are just White dudes with differently colored armor) and White's monopoly on "dudes with weapons" is obviously something you're going to want to break up if you want to make "dudes with weapons" a more central part of your theme.

But that leaves you with the same problem Blue has always had: what are their bigger creatures supposed to look like or do? If the faction is Tech and your basic girl is a greasy mechanic girl with a big wrench... that sort of implies that your big creatures are Tanks. But Law has girls in military uniforms, why the fuck don't they get the tanks? Essentially you've got one faction that has a perfectly good excuse to have airships, iron dragons, tanks, and death rays; and then you have another faction that has just as good or better claim to all those things but also thematically has access to Valkyries and Angels of Judgement.

-Username17

[JigokuBosatsu]

Are we still talking about a color wheel for a CCG or is this intended to work in an RPG as well?

[Username17]

Are we still talking about a color wheel for a CCG or is this intended to work in an RPG as well?

Ideally it should be able to work for both.

A CCG generally has things categorized into power levels and groups. More than that, it has Venn Diagrams. An L5R character has a clan and a class and a power level and chi and honor and special abilities and shit. A Magic creature has a color and a cost and a power and a toughness and a class and a race and text and whatever text it has. There's a lot of world building on a CCG card, and it's exactly the sort of world building that an RPG would like to have. You know it's a big deal to be able to defeat a Stormtide Leviathan because it is an 8/8. You know it's a big deal to be able to defeat a Blue Eyes Ultimate Dragon because it has an Attack of 4500.

So by the time you have a CCG setup you also have an RPG setting. And one which is probably going to be a lot more balanced than typical RPG setups. If only because instead of just asking yourself how to make a Swordsman "better" nineteen times, you've already had to ask yourself what a Purple card that was "worth 7 mana" or whatever looked like. And that's when you realize that high level characters have to be fucking Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite rather than like "Swordsman #4, but with a bonus to attack rolls" or some shit.

-Username17

[Thaluikhain]

Yeah, having scientist girls and mechanic girls seems a bit odd. I think it might work if you take the scientist girls and make them more zany scientists and stick them in with the mechanics.

Then you could have soldier girls in nice uniforms and sensible tanks, and mech/scientist girls with extreme! weird tanks.

[czernebog]

If you can get your hands on a Dungeon Guilds set, you'll find a set of cards that more or less follow this theme, with progression in power level matching progression in silly/moe-ness. The design they use is: rangers (projectiles, mostly bows), "witches" (witch hats and other "I'm a witch" icons, culminating in 100% Magical Girl getup), blades (dagger up through "comically huge buster sword"), monk/hand-to-hand (which is played straight), shrine maiden (and appropriate paraphernalia), and "Catholic" (with garb ranging from "novice's habit" to "kind of looking like a bishop" and "cleavage angel").

BoardGameGeek has some user-submitted photos

These illustrations are 100% fluff, but they do show one way of thematically segmenting the space of fantasy adventuring into several distinct, moe-graduated scales. (And on a side note, Dungeon Guilds is an interesting bidding-based game that it can be fun to pull out if your group is interested in something vaguely thematic for game night but has slid really far down the "beer & pretzels" scale.)

[Wiseman]

Are we still talking about a color wheel for a CCG or is this intended to work in an RPG as well?

Ideally it should be able to work for both.

A CCG generally has things categorized into power levels and groups. More than that, it has Venn Diagrams. An L5R character has a clan and a class and a power level and chi and honor and special abilities and shit. A Magic creature has a color and a cost and a power and a toughness and a class and a race and text and whatever text it has. There's a lot of world building on a CCG card, and it's exactly the sort of world building that an RPG would like to have. You know it's a big deal to be able to defeat a Stormtide Leviathan because it is an 8/8. You know it's a big deal to be able to defeat a Blue Eyes Ultimate Dragon because it has an Attack of 4500.

So by the time you have a CCG setup you also have an RPG setting. And one which is probably going to be a lot more balanced than typical RPG setups. If only because instead of just asking yourself how to make a Swordsman "better" nineteen times, you've already had to ask yourself what a Purple card that was "worth 7 mana" or whatever looked like. And that's when you realize that high level characters have to be fucking Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite rather than like "Swordsman #4, but with a bonus to attack rolls" or some shit.

-Username17

I did exactly that.

[Username17]

Developing the structures of a card game is unfortunately multi-dimensional - which means directly that it is difficult to even discuss in a message board format, where text necessary is forced to exist in a two-dimensional space.

Specifically this means that your typical D&D-esque area has various areas:

• The fantasy Western Europe area with farms and castles.
• The fantasy Eastern Europe area with forests and ruins and vampires.
• The fantasy Northern Wastes, with hardy barbarians in small fishing villages threatened by giants and surrounded by glacial mountains.
• The fantasy North Africa with pyramids and mummies and a big desert.
• The fantasy East Asia with pagodas and rice paddies and the dragons have mustaches.
• The fantasy New World with jungles and stepped pyramids and the locals have non-iron weapons.

These are all reasonable fantasy areas and you might have a few more of them depending on what kind of fantasy you're doing. Fantasy South Asia or fantasy Oceania are possibilities as are weirder things like fantasy metal-land or fantasy dream world. The point is that every card suit is going to appear in all of these areas.

But more importantly still, every card suit is going to appear in all of those areas at every power level and with every kind of card they do. So a Law card would be a power level 3 Scientist Girl from the fantasy North Africa zone. And you have to be able to answer what she'd be like if she was power level 4 instead; but also if she was from fantasy New World instead. Or if she was a military officer instead of a scientist. And that's just in Law. If you're talking about a Chaos card instead, your power level 3 North African Monster Girl might be a Lamia - but again you're going to have to be able to change all of those parameters.

-Username17

[Username17]

To give an example of what it would look like, let's consider the idea that you'll have two flavors of cute girl for each color. And then let's arbitrarily announce that we have six colors because there are factually six primary and secondary colors.

Yellow we have down as Law. You have Science Girls and Soldier Girls. Their typical mage is a "Wizard."
Purple is the opposite of yellow, so that's Chaos. Here we put Chimera Girls and Rogue Girls. Their typical mage is a "Shaman."
Orange we have down as Hope. That's where Priestesses and Angels go. Their typical mage is a "Cleric."
Blue is the opposite, so we make that Gloom. We have Ghost Girls and also various gothic lolitas and Wednesday Adams type characters. I don't have a good name for them, so they probably end up being called "Scholars" or something. Their typical mage is a "Necromancer."
Green we use for Life. Barbarian Girls and various nymphs and dryads that we call "Spirits." Their typical mage is a "Druid."
Red is the opposite of green, so we call it Blood. You get Aristocrat Girls and also Vampires (and succubi and such). Their typical mage is a "Witch."

Now it comes to the iterative process of filling out the various colors in the different parts of the setting and also in the different power levels. So you need to say "What does a Barbarian Girl look like in the East Asian fantasy zone?" And also "What does a Barbarian Girl look like at power level 5?" And so on and so forth.

There's a lot of madlibs to fill in. With six colors and six zones and six power levels and two main flavors of cute girl per faction, you're looking at 432 postit notes to fill in.

And yeah, a lot of them are self explanatory. And a lot of them don't need to be filled in with anything particularly interesting. Like, it's totally reasonable for the Bog Wraith and the Sand Wraith to be basically the same thing mechanically because basically one is a power level 3 Ghost Girl from the Frozen North and the other is a level 3 Ghost Girl from the Trackless Desert.

And yes, you could add colors. Like, none of those factions have school girls, or cat girls, but you could easily imagine either of those things filling a faction bracket easily enough.

-Username17

[Username17]

To go into a little more detail on how this works, imagine for the sake of argument that we start focusing on the generic western fantasy region and we dig a little deeper into each of the six colors' two lanes. Every suit is going to need kinds of creatures and kinds of non-creatures. For game mechanics and deck building, the non-creature cards are probably more important - but for world building the creature cards are the most important. Every card suit is going to have two lanes of "people" as well as monsters and flagship giant monsters.

LAW
Law's two lanes are Nerd Girls and Soldier Girls. Broadly speaking, the Nerd Girls belong to the classes of: Scholar, Artisan, Wizard, and Scientist; while the Soldier Girls belong to the classes of: Guard, Scout, Knight, and Soldier. Law has very few girls that are high-cost creatures, but has access to various war engines and war beasts. The biggest things are the Iron Dragon and the Sky Galleon. You also get Dwarves. Animals are mostly Dogs and Horses (including Pegasi and shit) but also Elephants and particularly lawful bugs: Ants, Bees, and Spiders.

CHAOS
Chaos' two lanes are Rogue Girls and Chimera Girls. The Rogue Girls bring the following main classes: Pirate, Assassin, Bandit, Warrior, Shaman, and Rogue. The Chimeras are less specifically tribal and bring a wide variety of monsters with some amount of girl-parts: Sphinx, Manticore, Shedu, Harpy, Gorgon, Centaur, Minotaur, and so on. Chaos also gets various furries that come in under "Beastfolk." At the high end you have the mighty Chaos Dragon (Tiamat essentially) and the Great Sphinx.

LIFE
Life's two people tracks are Wild Girls and Spirit Girls. The Wild Girls come in the following classes: Warrior, Berserker, Scout, Shaman, and Druid; the Spirit Girls are basically all just Spirits or Fairies, but they are conceptually Nymphs, Oreads, Dryads, Genius Loci and such. There's a parade of bears, deer, unicorns, and walking trees as you might expect in the animal department. There are also Elves. The biggest things are the Forest Dragon and the Force of Nature.

BLOOD
Blood's two tracks are Crown Girls and Vampire Girls. The Crown Girls get the following classes: Minion, Performer, Advisor, Knight, Witch and Noble; the Vampires have literal Vampires but also Demons in the form of Succubi and Imps, but they come in the same "classes" as the regular Crown Girls do - so there's Advisor Succubi and Noble Vampires. Your animals are divided between traditional "regal" animals such as lions and eagles (and Lion-Eagles, AKA Gryphons), and "blood drinking" animals such as bats, vultures, and mosquitoes. The top end creatures are the Arch Devil and the Roc.

HOPE
Hope's two people tracks are Priest Girls and Angel Girls. The Priest Girls come in the following classes: Knight, Pilgrim, Fanatic, Oracle, Performer, Monk, and Cleric; while the Angels pretty much come in exactly the same classes but they are Angels instead of Humans. You get a variety of "sacred" animals such as Phoenixes, temple cats, and cows, and a minor fire theme. The biggest creatures are the Seraph and the Blazing Phoenix.

GLOOM
Gloom's two people tracts are Goth Girls and Ghost Girls. The Goth Girls come in the following classes: Scholar, Advisor, Wizard, Oracle, and Performer; and the Ghost Girls come in Minion, Pilgrim, Performer, Berserker, and Assassin. Your animals have a lot of Serpents in them, as well as ravens and gloomy versions of cats and dogs. Your biggest creatures are the Hydra and the Banshee.

---

So that's step one. The next step is asking yourself what it means for some of these colors to appear in other parts of the setting. So like, when you go into your Eastern European Ravenloftesque region, Blood and Gloom pretty much stay exactly as-is; but Law goes heavy into Mad Science and makes Frankenstein's Monster and shit, Life gets Werewolves, Hope gets fallen Angels, and Chaos goes in for Maniacs. In the far east setting, Knights get traded in for Samurai and Assassins get traded in for Ninjas. And so on.

-Username17

[deaddmwalking]

Does it matter that blood and law both have knights?

Why is the Roc a blood creature? I remember trying to eat people that were sewn up inside a camel carcass, but I don't remember it being a blood-drinker.

[DrPraetor]

Blood also gets eagles, because they're both "nobility" and vampires. A Roc is a giant eagle.

To my surprise, Blood and Gloom are well-distinguished, at least in this space; Blood has bigger tits and ruddy cheeks. Some girls will want to be "vampires" and show up in Gloom, but if they do, it's because they're skinny and pale and wearing a shift or a shroud, while the blood vampires have dresses, ruddy cheeks as well as fangs, so you have no trouble telling them apart.

The weakest pairwise split is between Law and Hope, I think? It's hard to see how a girl in shining armor on a pegasus is not the same team as a girl in shining armor with her own wings... Does Law get military uniforms instead of armor?

Also, it's not obvious how those two teams translate internationally. I suppose that Miko maintain a sacred flame and are therefore Hope, while Law would get... scholar/official girls?

[Username17]

Does it matter that blood and law both have knights?

It matters, in that it creates the possibility of multi-color tribal decks. It's not a problem unless it becomes difficult to tell thematically what the difference between a Chaos Warrior and a Life Warrior is. As long as we can clearly tell that "Lost Soul (Gloom Ghost Pilgrim)" is distinct from a "Relic Seeker (Hope Human Pilgrim)" the fact that suits share key words with other suits isn't a bad thing.

The weakest pairwise split is between Law and Hope, I think? It's hard to see how a girl in shining armor on a pegasus is not the same team as a girl in shining armor with her own wings... Does Law get military uniforms instead of armor?

The idea is that Hope vs Law is Church vs State. And admittedly that becomes blurry when it comes to Knights. I could certainly see the argument that all the Knights should just be Hope or Blood and that the Soldier Girls of Law should get some more military types like Engineer or Archer or something. My thought was simply that there are a lot of Knights in fantasy fiction and you could probably have them show up across three colors without running out of conceptual space.

So to a first approximation "Paladin of Mercy" is a Hope Knight, "Queen's Champion" is a Blood Knight, and "Knight Commander" is a Law Knight. Of the three, I think it's clear that the Law Knight is the least important piece of conceptual space and that you could make all the Secular Knights into Blood cards if you wanted to. But I also like the idea of people making three color Knight decks called "God, Queen, and Country."

-Username17

[DrPraetor]

So Blood would be:
[*] Both red and white Plantaganet, the Holy Roman Emperor, the Yellow Emperor

Law would be:
[*] The Parliament of England (especially the Magna Carta), the Hanseatic League Cities, Confucian Officials

Hope would be:
[*] Various monks and bishops in either England or Germany, Buddhists?

That works fine for Europe 800-1400, but it's a tough division to internationalize. Even in pagan Iceland, the nobles and priests are the same guys. You can assign the Shinto priests, Buddhist priests, the Shogun and the Emperor to (possibly the same in some cases) slots, but you end up resolving the hope/law split pretty weirdly in some cases.

You might give the Westerners a more Chinese-like religion, which is engineered to be inoffensive. So there are hermits and wise men and monasteries and a hierarchy of generically-holy types without much in the way of deities, theology or dogma. Occasional oblique references might be made to "heaven" but even the woman with the wings might be speaking purely allegorically.

[Username17]

I regard the Hope/Law/Blood split to be pretty easy in far east land. Imperial Forces are Blood, Shogunate Forces are Law, and Temple Forces are Hope. Done and done.

The wheel may have to be spun slightly in other zones. In New World Fantasy zone, you really want to have Blood Priests, so there need to be Clerics and Temples that were Blood rather than Hope. But I don't think it's terribly difficult to imagine Huitzilopochtli and friends (Jaguar Knights and Eagle Knights and such) as Blood while Quetzalcoatl and friends are Hope. Meanwhile the Law faction you're doing your damndest to not make the Law faction be the Conquistadors (my suggestion would be to have Conquistador cards mixed into Blood, Chaos, Gloom, Hope, and Law), but you could easily have it represent Incans with Ancient Astronaut tech.

In Northern Frozen Fantasy zone, things would also have to change. Your big Law/Hope conflict is between Frost Giants in Blood and the Seekers of Summer in Hope. Law meanwhile gets Merchants and Performers because the Skalds are both lawyers and singers. The entire Nerd Girl faction of Law becomes a bunch of poets and traders for the most part.

In Desert Fantasy zone, you have animal head gods for all the suits. And thus you also have Clerics of every faction. Hope's Priest Girls aren't really a primary unique lane, although they do still have some Yazata and shit for the Angel Girls. This is where Hope goes full Hospitaler and you get a lot of Nurses of Isis and such.

-Username17

[Koumei]

So for any of these things really, not just this specific project which I thought was a dumb joke turned hypothetical but for all I know we might be looking at production runs next year: when you want to fill in every box to populate the playspace, how many dimensions are we looking at the chart having? There's what, Colour * Location * Power Level, or am I forgetting one? And assuming you have a 3D space (let me know if you have a 4D space), what is that "chart" going to look like? I suppose technically if you had four dimensions you could make a giant table and each table entry is actually an entire table in and of itself, but you probably want something more elegant than that.

Secondly, when are we getting all the great art for this?

[maglag]

Secondly, when are we getting all the great art for this?

First, in a scale of Touhou's official art to actual Hentai, how much fanservice do we want?

[DrPraetor]

Secondly, when are we getting all the great art for this?

First, in a scale of Touhou's official art to actual Hentai, how much fanservice do we want?

I mentioned the Magna Carta for a reason...

[Zaranthan]

Ugh, girls who can dislocate their shoulders and elbows like that creep me out.

[Dogbert]

In New World Fantasy zone, you really want to have Blood Priests

I hold Frank pre-emptively responsible for any incoming waifuification of Opa Opa.

[Leress]

Secondly, when are we getting all the great art for this?

First, in a scale of Touhou's official art to actual Hentai, how much fanservice do we want?

Force of Will TCG level.

[maglag]

Secondly, when are we getting all the great art for this?

First, in a scale of Touhou's official art to actual Hentai, how much fanservice do we want?

I mentioned the Magna Carta for a reason...

Hmm, a good sexy factor, but feels a bit lacking in the moe side.

Secondly, when are we getting all the great art for this?

First, in a scale of Touhou's official art to actual Hentai, how much fanservice do we want?

Force of Will TCG level.

Which version? Half-naked muscle or clothes that look like they could be used for actual adventuring?

[Username17]

So for any of these things really, not just this specific project which I thought was a dumb joke turned hypothetical but for all I know we might be looking at production runs next year: when you want to fill in every box to populate the playspace, how many dimensions are we looking at the chart having? There's what, Colour * Location * Power Level, or am I forgetting one? And assuming you have a 3D space (let me know if you have a 4D space), what is that "chart" going to look like? I suppose technically if you had four dimensions you could make a giant table and each table entry is actually an entire table in and of itself, but you probably want something more elegant than that.

It's considerably more than 3D, and probably the best way to do it is with a series of 2D spreadsheets to interpret things on different axes. Let's consider a single card: Artillery Sergeant. In Magic terms, she's a 2/2 for 2 with Support (Tap: Another Target Untapped Creature gains +X/+X until end of turn, where X is this creature's Attack). She's also a Law card and a Human Soldier.

So where does Artillery Sergeant live? She only does anything at all if you have other creatures, and has some inherent synergy with mass buffs, Trample, Endurance (attack without tapping), First Strike, and so on. But the big central thing is that the main purpose is making your creatures big for the purpose of trading resources with your opponent. An opponent uninterested in having their creatures fight your creatures or using direct damage to kill your creatures will similarly be uninterested in your Artillery Sergeant. Whether she has a home in Aggro, Midrange, Combo, or Control depends on both the expected layout of the decks in question and also in the decks they are fighting against.

Artillery Sergeant exists on a spreadsheet of "potential Law Aggro cards" and on a spreadsheet of "potential Law Midrange cards" and on a spreadsheet of "potential Law Control cards" and it also lives on a spreadsheet of "potential Law draft cards" and on a spreadsheet of "cards that interact with token makers" and "cards that interact with Trample" and so on and so on. There's a lot going on, and a lot of potential interactions - and this for a card that is marginal and honestly might not see play outside of Draft.

But it has to be on all those lists because maybe Control wants to make a bunch of blocker tokens and wants the repeatable buff.

-Username17