What is considered to be "modern" RPG design?

[erik]

which third party company will pull a Paizo and take up the mantle of "true 3rd Edition" from then on out?

Probably a general unknown. I mean, if one of the big names was gonna do it then the time to do it was years ago. Clearly they either don't want to or realize they don't know how to improve 3e. Paizo didn't know how, but they gave it a good ole college try.

Or a combination of something old and something new. Maybe the next EP for WotC will try a return to OGL and this time put out a call for someone to submit their new OGL d20 edition instead of a setting bible as resulted in Eberron. I mean it seems like everyone has done their own 3.x version, though usually not to completion. If there was promise of actual reward then I bet someone would polish theirs to make it something worth buying when combined with professional layout and art direction. They'd hopefully fire Mearls and probably the other two people remaining in order to fix the culture, and need to invest in some number crunchers and destructive play testers. But it happened once before.

[saithorthepyro]

I sincerely doubt that any contest along those lines will ever occur. Assuming that Mearls would be stupid enough to allow such a thing to occur, I don't foresee them actually picking a ruleset that would be very good to be the contest winner. Also, while I do think that the sales numbers are inflated, I do not think that 5e is a financial flop. If that were the case there would have been more done earlier. Maybe the new executive producer is because the department has financial difficulty, or maybe it's just internal re-organization. Mearls may have even requested it so he held less positions. As is I doubt we will see anything the is contrary to what people see 5e as, especially with a new Baldur's Gate based on it just being announced.

As is I do wish 3rd party publishers do make their own versions, if only so there isn't as much Rules-lite games on the modern market. Something that is maybe not a nostalgia game either.

[souran]

Regardless of anybodies thoughts on the quality of 5e, Hasbro seems pretty happy with the the ROI that they are currently getting out of D&D. I also think that Mearls has probably argued that 3 editions in 14 years was too many too quick. People played AD&D and 2E for 10 years each before people were clamoring for a new edition.

Honestly, I would say that "modern" rpg design tries to find ways to be simpler to execute at the table and get more milage out of their limited probability curves. Basically, things like advantage or the A.G.E. systems stunt die. I personally think that these are a response to computer RPGs. A computer can create custom dice on command and handle lots of detail. Comparatively, table top RPG have small RNGs and have a lot fewer rolls in a single evening so more things need to happen for each roll.

[Guts]

@Virgil , I never said there wasn't one-shot or short-term games before the 00s, I said those were the exception in those days, while they've become popular nowadays. PbtA and Cortex are good examples: when in the past we had engines made for short-term play getting this popular and being hacked into dozens of games?

Honestly, I would say that "modern" rpg design tries to find ways to be simpler to execute at the table and get more milage out of their limited probability curves. Basically, things like advantage or the A.G.E. systems stunt die. I personally think that these are a response to computer RPGs. A computer can create custom dice on command and handle lots of detail. Comparatively, table top RPG have small RNGs and have a lot fewer rolls in a single evening so more things need to happen for each roll.

Yep. I can see most new RPGs, even those from old lines, streamlining themselves in this direction of faster, pick-and-play, more stuff from less rolls gaming. Shadowrun already tried the waters with Anarchy and will probably use the feedback in the upcoming 6th edition. I don't doubt PF2e also goes this way.

And the computer/videogames point makes sense. As those two crowds become more aware of each other, it seems natural that authors start to consciously offload stuff to the media it fits best - complexity and calculations to computers, improvisation and social to tabletop.

Curious fact: it seems in Japan the trend of one-shot / short-term play is popular since the early 00s. There's this whole line called "Saikoro Fiction" (Shinobigami and Kill Death Business among them) that's all based on one-shots and it's hugely popular over there.

[erik]

@Virgil , I never said there wasn't one-shot or short-term games before the 00s, I said those were the exception in those days, while they've become popular nowadays. PbtA and Cortex are good examples: when in the past we had engines made for short-term play getting this popular and being hacked into dozens of games?

Popular? Dammit, someone already used the Inigo meme, because you clearly aren't using that word correctly. What counts as popular, 1% marketshare? I don't think they have even reached those lofty heights. More people are struck by lightning each year than play your favorite game.

No. There have been one shot games for a long time. Paranoia is one. Other games have already been listed as well. Even D&D has been packaged with single session adventures for a long time as I previously mentioned. More people played in Living Greyhawk than probably ever played Bearworld or Serenity. So those are even minorities of the one-shot genre.

As for things getting hacked into dozens of games, well now we have the internet and much lower barriers to production. Anybody with an opinion, no matter how ill informed can share it with the rest of the world and that goes for people's homebrew games too. It was happening before, but on a limited scale as everyone made their own games, but they weren't disseminated.

[saithorthepyro]

Okay, so anyone trying to say PF 2e is trying to be less complex is getting nothing more than laughs out of me, because PF 2e only gives a very frail illusion of being simpler that falls apart when you bother to attempt character creations. Now it's true that some things have been simplified, often popular fan suggestions like the removal of the Paladin's alignment restrictions. However, in so many areas is PF 2e so much more complicated than PF 1e.

Shields are a good example of this. In PF 1e, they were pretty simple, a bonus to your Armor Class that at most was part of a tanky TWF build. Not that good, definitely needed a buff, but the mechanics behind it were in concept fine. In 2e, now a shield is the vehicle for a reaction type to intercept enemy blows and block them, with the shield having a durability that decreases as it absorbs hits and so on. So now using the shield is no longer a passive buff but an active thing that you have to use and a new resource to track for when your shield breaks apart.

Resonance is another case of complication added to PF 2e where it wasn't needed. A new, fiddly resource based off a little used stat that limits how much you can use magic items with no in-universe justification and the only out of universe one being that Paizo devs hate the CLW wand?

And of course there is Featmageddon. Instead of maybe going for a freeform chargen system (Possibly interesting) or just revising dead feats and class abilities and tightening up the system (Less interesting but probably what more fans wanted) They decided to go halfway in both directions and instead make everything feats. Racial abilities, archetypes, general feats, class abilities, and prestige classes are now feats or feat chains. All of them. And this makes the game so much harder to get into for new people. As much as people complain about the sheer volume of content for PF 1e and making it hard for new players, this is worse since now you actively have to choose which feat out of 4 (most of the time) or several (some of the time) every single level. This is so much worse for a new player, and while maybe a good idea if the feats were well-balanced, they aren't, they are the typical Paizo balance screw-up.

Furthermore splitting up the old racial abilities into feats you get over ten levels is very disempowering to 1e players. Having to spend a feat to get crap like Stonecutting feels like the epitome of wasted space. Nobody minds having Stonecutting when you get it for free, but having to spend a feat on it? Gah.

If anything PF 2e appeals more to the 4e crowd, containing mechanics that feel like they were ripped from an MMO in nature and having no in-universe justification for their existence.

As far as anecdotal evidence goes, I have no idea if PBTA is popular or not. On Mythweavers we tend to see Paranoia, ODnD, or Cybperunk more often than it. It exists but gets dwarfed by PF and 5e. Frankly the one game of it I do remember seeing is when it got shut down for idiots trying to use the 'Sex Moves' and violated ToS.

[erik]

Every marketshare thing I tried to find didn't list any Bearworld or Cortex games. I mean here we go, they have sub 1% listings and it still doesn't make the grade.



It's just the sales for one store but hey. Now Bearworld probably gets most of their sales online because it's not a big deal, but that's kind of the point.

[Chamomile]

The last time Roll20's Orr Industry released one of their quarterly report was for over a year ago, Q1 2018, which means that its relevance shrinks by the day. That said, the combined marketshare of Dungeon World and "Apocalypse World System" was less than 2%, and that was consistent with the other reports going back to 2014. I don't see any particular reason to believe there was a sudden boom in popularity in the last year.

[Guts]

@Erik, forget physical store sales. We are in 2019, not 1989.

Also, if you want to see the influence of the light narrative school, consider the likes of Blades in the Dark, Fria Ligan Games (Mutant Year Zero, Tales from the Loop, Forbidden Lands), Numenera/Cypher, Beyond the Wall, the new Kult (Divinity Lost), etc. - all them influenced in a way or another by it.

[Whiysper]

...I have literally only seen one of the games you just listed played or sold. Numenera is Monte Cook deciding that he doesn't like writing crunch any more, and so not doing it - it's got sweet fuck all to do with content-deprived vague lists of mouth-noises that pretend to be actual games (PbtA), and even your shilling ass should feel bad for pretending that it does.

Sorry, I usually have the self-discipline to sit out of the 'BearWorld is teh bestest!' wankfests, but this one is hitting such astounding heights of bullshit that it's starting to contribute to the fucking climate crisis. Stop embarrassing yourself, and making people demean their intellect by taking your vacuous crap seriously enough to respond to.

[Guts]

@Whysper, look at Cypher "GM never rolls dice". That's PbtA right there. Also, and more important: do you really think it's mere coincidence that Monte Cook adhered to the light-narrative scthick at this moment? Come on.

On you never hearing about Mutant Year Zero, Tales from the Loop or Kult, well that says more about your personal interests than anything, really.

Edit: about the "Bearworld is the bestest" it's you who're saying it. My point is that light-narrative games are more popular and influential than ever.

[angelfromanotherpin]

Stop talking to silva. He won't learn. He won't grow. He's not even after learning or growth. One hundred percent of his purpose on this board is to troll for comments and shill shitty games. That's it. That is as far down as the rabbit hole goes. He is literally a worse person than shadzar. Stop feeding the troll.

[Kaelik]

What's up with double shadowrun at 3 and 1 percent? I assume different editions, but which is which?

[Guts]

What's up with double shadowrun at 3 and 1 percent? I assume different editions, but which is which?

I wouldn't give much thought to that, as it's just one physical store. These days I would say Amazon and Drivethrough are the minimum benchmark for sales.

[Whiysper]

Thanks Angel. I forgot. It strikes me that now I'm sure Silva has returned to us, like the most tedious resurrection you'd care to imagine, there's a button that will solve all my woes.

And again with the wondering what the next good game to steal the thunder is going to come from. There's not much in the way of serious contenders in that field, are there? Mostly name recognition and not much else.

[erik]

My point is that light-narrative games are more popular and influential than ever.

Yet still less popular than being struck by lightning.

[deaddmwalking]

@Whysper, look at Cypher "GM never rolls dice". That's PbtA right there. Also, and more important: do you really think it's mere coincidence that Monte Cook adhered to the light-narrative scthick at this moment? Come on.

I'm not sure if you're confused about time's arrow or how influence works - probably both.

'Players Roll all the Dice' was an SRD variant for 3.x. The reason it exists is because that was a conversation that had been happening for 20+ years at that point.

[angelfromanotherpin]

deaddm, for fuck's sake. He is not confused. He is lying. He will pretend to hold any stupid-ass opinion that he thinks might provoke you. He will pretend profound ignorance of things he has been corrected on. He will pretend to not understand what simple words mean. And he will pretend to instantly forget any rebuttals so that he can reiterate his debunked points over and over forever.

And when you 'correct' him, all you are doing is amplifying his noise pollution.

[Guts]

Woah it seems I've hit some exposed nerve or something here. Sorry for that, I'm leaving the thread.

[saithorthepyro]

Anyone else find it mildly amusing he declared he was leaving this thread and then immediately started another thread about a PBTA type game?

[Dean]

No. Because he is literally Silva and Silva makes one thread a week about PBTA. Each one starts with a vapid question and regardless of what you answer he will tell you about how bearworld is taking the gaming world by storm. He's been doing it for years. He is a troll who has openly admitted that he is a troll and he has already been banned from here. Don't talk to him.

[jt]

I'm not sure that sales numbers or even play numbers are the indicator to use for what counts as modern design. I think modern design is what modern designers are creating, regardless of how popular it is to actually play.

So if the most popular system to create is short OSR retroclones, that's the state of modern design.

[Leress]

No. Because he is literally Silva and Silva makes one thread a week about PBTA. Each one starts with a vapid question and regardless of what you answer he will tell you about how bearworld is taking the gaming world by storm. He's been doing it for years. He is a troll who has openly admitted that he is a troll and he has already been banned from here. Don't talk to him.

The only bears and storms I deal with are Yurikuma Arashi and even that was trash.

[erik]

if the most popular system to create is short OSR retroclones, that's the state of modern design.

That's a big fucking if.

So, how do you know what most people are creating? There's no metrics on what people do in their basement and don't share with anyone.

Is the state of modern design whatever magic tea party 6 year olds are making in kindergarten playgrounds then? That's probably always been #1 and always will be. Which actually isn't too far removed from bearworld I suppose... just with less douchey MC direction and doesn't need 300+ pages to get the lack of rules stated.

Anyway, ignoring the difficulty of tracking something without metrics. Who cares what people are making if nobody's playing it? Of course sales and play stats matter in figuring out the current state of design in the hobby. It's what people are making / how they are making it, *and* also getting traction among players.

That's a big part of why bearworld doesn't matter. People aren't actually playing it. People make adaptations of it because there's almost zero effort/skill required and you can make a quick buck. Not enough to live on, just enough grift to eat out for a while.

[Kaelik]

It is nice to know that my Fiends and Fortresses game that no one here even looks at and no one plays and is incomplete is "modern design" because I'm making it, and the fact that no one plays it is and that I haven't even posted half the rules is meaningless