*D&D 4ed*

Bigode · Post by **Bigode** » Mon Jun 09, 2008 8:21 pm

RandomCasualty2 wrote:Though honestly this is only good in a select rare circumstance where:

-you're fighting one monster
-You have sufficient room to keep falling back without blocking your line of sight.

So that pretty much means it's only good when you're fighting a solo monster outdoors, or maybe after you've killed one of a pair of elites.

Sorry, but I completely fail to understand that - party enters place, enemies show up, party fires and retreats if they approach, directly backwards (to where presumably there wasn't any enemy - aside from stealth-based, who tended to trump kiting anyway).

baduin wrote:Finally, I don't agree that D&D 4e is constructed according to Exception-based design. This was 3e. Now we have Keyword based design, somewhat similar to Magic the Gathering.

AFAIK, "having a bunch of cards with text written on it" is both the very height of EBD and effectively what 4E does.

virgil · Post by **virgil** » Mon Jun 09, 2008 9:42 pm

A party could enter, fire, and backtrack. However, the enemy side can just as easily stay inside where it's safe and wait beside the door; as they're not required to leave to win the encounter (players being the aggressor).

JonSetanta · Post by **JonSetanta** » Mon Jun 09, 2008 10:07 pm

baduin wrote: Finally, I don't agree that D&D 4e is constructed according to Exception-based design. This was 3e. Now we have Keyword based design, somewhat similar to Magic the Gathering.

I happen to prefer keyword design as it resembles computer code very closely.
The interactions between rules are predictable and save space in writing.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Tue Jun 10, 2008 12:45 am

FrankTrollman wrote:By and large they don't even use their dailies and encounter powers because they are shit.

When I saw Disintegrate, I was very sad. 5d10+Int does not deserve such a title, as that isn't disintegrating anything. Not at that level, probably not 15 fucking levels ago when you were fighting level 4 monsters.

I checked a random level 19 (Disintegrate's level) solo - as that's what Daily powers are supposed to be used on. The Beholder Eye Tyrant had 900 hit points.

So at level 19, you have an Int of 25. Your average damage is 32.5 and that is a daily power. That is also what we call shit.

At least they get Narcotic Web though.

Psychic Robot · Post by **Psychic Robot** » Tue Jun 10, 2008 12:47 am

You just don't understand! The wizard's a controller, not a striker!

Talisman · Post by **Talisman** » Tue Jun 10, 2008 1:31 am

Koumei wrote:When I saw Disintegrate, I was very sad. 5d10+Int does not deserve such a title, as that isn't disintegrating anything. Not at that level, probably not 15 fucking levels ago when you were fighting level 4 monsters.

I checked a random level 19 (Disintegrate's level) solo - as that's what Daily powers are supposed to be used on. The Beholder Eye Tyrant had 900 hit points.

So at level 19, you have an Int of 25. Your average damage is 32.5 and that is a daily power. That is also what we call shit.

At least they get Narcotic Web though.

Good God...disintegrate is a measly 5d10+Int? I am in awe of the sheer, appalling lameness of that. My Lame-O-Meter just broke.

What the hell is the deal with micro-damage + macro-hp? Rocket tag was an issue, true, but this...this...

...You do realize, it would take an army of wizards around thirty fvcking rounds to kill the damn beholder? That's assuming they all use disin - excuse me, mildly irritate every round.

Maxus · Post by **Maxus** » Tue Jun 10, 2008 1:42 am

Talisman wrote:
Koumei wrote:When I saw Disintegrate, I was very sad. 5d10+Int does not deserve such a title, as that isn't disintegrating anything. Not at that level, probably not 15 fucking levels ago when you were fighting level 4 monsters.

I checked a random level 19 (Disintegrate's level) solo - as that's what Daily powers are supposed to be used on. The Beholder Eye Tyrant had 900 hit points.

So at level 19, you have an Int of 25. Your average damage is 32.5 and that is a daily power. That is also what we call shit.

At least they get Narcotic Web though.
Good God...disintegrate is a measly 5d10+Int? I am in awe of the sheer, appalling lameness of that. My Lame-O-Meter just broke.

What the hell is the deal with micro-damage + macro-hp? Rocket tag was an issue, true, but this...this...

...You do realize, it would take an army of wizards around thirty fvcking rounds to kill the damn beholder? That's assuming they all use disin - excuse me, mildly irritate every round.

No...No...wait... *checks math*

They'd take 28 rounds with that damage!

Talisman · Post by **Talisman** » Tue Jun 10, 2008 2:22 am

Oh...silly me.
That's much better, then. Never mind. Carry on.

Jacob_Orlove · Post by **Jacob_Orlove** » Tue Jun 10, 2008 2:24 am

Well, probably more like 25-26 rounds, since one or more of them will get a Crit.

But double that to 50 rounds, because you'll miss about half the time against a level-appropriate enemy.

JonSetanta · Post by **JonSetanta** » Tue Jun 10, 2008 2:41 am

Good sirs and madams, I am indeed severely appalled but this travesty of a Wizard.

virgil · Post by **virgil** » Tue Jun 10, 2008 2:45 am

At least it prevents the concern about any single entity being able to rewrite the landscape, because once you get an army's attention, the only thing that can survive is something with a gigantic damage aura (both size and damage).

Voss · Post by **Voss** » Tue Jun 10, 2008 3:07 am

virgileso wrote:At least it prevents the concern about any single entity being able to rewrite the landscape, because once you get an army's attention, the only thing that can survive is something with a gigantic damage aura (both size and damage).

That leads to a problem though, as suddenly D&D land is utterly inverted. When the Tarrasque shows up, you don't want a party of heroes- you seriously want 10,000 archers.

Though... as written, I seriously don't know that the tarrasque is actually killable. 1,420 hit points, AC 43 and Resist 10 (all), no matter what you throw at him you really aren't doing shit. The entire combat seems an exercise in hoping for the absurd crits you can get at that level (max weapon + 15 + magic item crits (5d6 to 5d12) + plus the enhance crit feat and a high crit weapon), And of course, its only doing about 4d12 +32 a round.

And the less said about Orcus, the better. Despite the giant hard-on they seem to have for him, he makes me sad. This is the big monster in the book, level 33 solo and the fucking Wand of Orcus does 3d12+12 damage, and inflicts the weakened status. Whee.
Though Touch of Death is wackily out of place in this edition(and...doesn't involve actual death). Enemy goes to 0 or bloodied (on a miss).

Leress · Post by **Leress** » Tue Jun 10, 2008 3:09 am

virgileso wrote:At least it prevents the concern about any single entity being able to rewrite the landscape, because once you get an army's attention, the only thing that can survive is something with a gigantic damage aura (both size and damage).

The Wizard could barely mow the lawn with the damn spell. It feels like they wanted to simulate Dragon Quest battles except with smaller numbers and more shoving.

Voss wrote: Though Touch of Death is wackily out of place in this edition(and...doesn't involve actual death). Enemy goes to 0 or bloodied (on a miss).

So, more like Touch of Severe Weakening.

Voss · Post by **Voss** » Tue Jun 10, 2008 3:32 am

More like a KO! shot from a fightin' game.

Though 4e overall reminds me more of GW's Advanced Heroquest, but with fewer options.

RandomCasualty2 · Post by **RandomCasualty2** » Tue Jun 10, 2008 4:57 am

virgileso wrote:A party could enter, fire, and backtrack. However, the enemy side can just as easily stay inside where it's safe and wait beside the door; as they're not required to leave to win the encounter (players being the aggressor).

Yup, pretty much the monster sits around a corner and waits for you to come into the dungeon. The PCs can retreat, but that really does them little good.

Voss · Post by **Voss** » Tue Jun 10, 2008 5:16 am

In which case, using tactics is pretty much an auto-lose. What fun!

No interesting combat options, and tactics automatically fuck the game up. Yeah, great.

rapa-nui · Post by **rapa-nui** » Tue Jun 10, 2008 5:30 am

A lot of the stuff being posted is still in the theoretical realm though. It's GOOD theory, but sometimes actual play helps sort the BS from the real deal.

I'm signed up for a campaign starting at 1st level soon. Playing a Warlock. Anyone else bothering to try and squeeze some fun out of the lame ass rules?

Also, imagine you could only have 3 House Rules before starting... what would they be? For me, I think it would be:

1. Cut down the Solo's saves and HP.
2. Nerf that stupid Orb combo, and give the wizard some more (non-broken) shit to make up for that loss.
3. ???

Jacob_Orlove · Post by **Jacob_Orlove** » Tue Jun 10, 2008 5:41 am

I don't think the monster can afford to just sit around. If it lets you retreat and catch your breath for 5 minutes, your encounter powers are back on line, and you can charge back in, unleash those, and run away again. The monster can't just sit there.

Note also that while Wizards hand out irrelevant damage at high levels, so does everyone else. You're seriously supposed to sit there and throw down minor status conditions (Daze! Stun! Immobilize! Weaken!) round after round so that you can slowly chip away at the monsters with mostly just your at-will attacks.

Or the Wizard can use Sleep, give the Eye Tyrant a -7 to save (or more, depending), and everyone can CdG with their high damage Daily and Encounter powers. That'll still take like 3-4 rounds (by which time it's woken up), but hopefully people can throw in some Stuns or Dazes and you can finish it off.

Edit: the game should work fine at low levels, according to everyone on the internet who has posted about their IRL games (doesn't count for all that much, but still). Cut down on HP for the monsters at higher levels, and fix skill challenges somehow.

If you want to boost Wizards, make more of their 1-round duration stuff into "save ends".

Calibron · Post by **Calibron** » Tue Jun 10, 2008 6:03 am

Your very second house rule would be to hit the wizard with a nerf bat? Seriously? You really can't think of anything at all more productive than that(besides cutting down on the solo-monster battle time)?

rapa-nui · Post by **rapa-nui** » Tue Jun 10, 2008 7:47 am

Nope, no idea. All I know is that that one power is way too obvious and probably overpowered against anything that isn't a solo. I also know that Wizards could stand a bit of a boost in other areas, but frankly, I'm too rules-naive at the moment to try and come up with anything remotely balanced.

Familiars might be a start, I suppose.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Tue Jun 10, 2008 9:10 am

rapa-nui wrote: Also, imagine you could only have 3 House Rules before starting... what would they be?

1. Replace with 3E
2. ???
3. Profit

Draco_Argentum · Post by **Draco_Argentum** » Tue Jun 10, 2008 9:27 am

rapa-nui wrote:Also, imagine you could only have 3 House Rules before starting... what would they be? For me, I think it would be:

Its easy to gentleman's agreement things out of the game. Its not really possible to do the reverse. I'd play the Descent: Journeys in the Dark boardgame as a houserule until someone rewrites the 4e classes to do interesting things.

JonSetanta · Post by **JonSetanta** » Tue Jun 10, 2008 9:47 am

Jacob_Orlove wrote: If you want to boost Wizards, make more of their 1-round duration stuff into "save ends".

That's a good fix right there. Wow, and here I assumed that was default for Wizards.

rapa-nui · Post by **rapa-nui** » Tue Jun 10, 2008 9:58 am

Draco_Argentum wrote:
rapa-nui wrote:Also, imagine you could only have 3 House Rules before starting... what would they be? For me, I think it would be:
Its easy to gentleman's agreement things out of the game. Its not really possible to do the reverse. I'd play the Descent: Journeys in the Dark boardgame as a houserule until someone rewrites the 4e classes to do interesting things.

Well, I wanna give the game a shot, despite all of its (apparent) shortcomings. I don't feel right bitchin' and moanin' about a system without actually having gone through the painful motions of watching it fail to deliver.

PhoneLobster · Post by **PhoneLobster** » Tue Jun 10, 2008 11:31 am

I don't need to actually PLAY Hello Kitty Online to know its not my kind of time waster. A quick once over is more than enough to identify the reasons.

And that's why I dislike them whole "don't knock it 'till you try it" mob. Because its really a stupid thing to say and even stupider to actually do when you think about it.