No More Wishes!

Jerry · Post by **Jerry** » Sun Jun 08, 2008 7:14 pm

I am banning Wish in my game. Why? Because the greater powers of Wish are entirely determined by DM fiat. It says on pages 302-303 in the PHB that "You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. Such a wish gives the DM the opportunity to fulfill your request without fulfilling it completely."
It later gives a Staff of the Magi example, in that wishing for an artifact causes you to teleport to said artifact.
Basically, the greater powers of Wish are determined by DM fiat.
Frank's example of Wishing for an Artifact (no cost) would not work at one of the game designer's table, because it is seen as a "greater effect."
I prefer spells which have powers that can be easily determined, plus I do not feel the need to argue with players when I pervert their Wishes.

Maxus · Post by **Maxus** » Sun Jun 08, 2008 7:42 pm

Well, players could theoretically close their loopholes if they're using one of those Wishes.

"Teleport the Staff of the Magi to rest on the ground five feet, eight inches away from where I currently stand."

Jerry · Post by **Jerry** » Sun Jun 08, 2008 7:49 pm

That's what I don't like; turning the spell into a "think of the best loophole that you can slip by the DM."

Calibron · Post by **Calibron** » Sun Jun 08, 2008 7:54 pm

That could be twisted in that something rather dangerous is in possession of the staff and it gets teleported along with it.

The best way to handle wishes is to either give what's intended or just say no, or possibly say "the spell energies explode in your face and you take 9d6 damage, but the spell slot and XP have not been spent." 'Course that last option would be a pretty dick move if the caster were in combat or another dangerous, time sensitive situation.

Talisman · Post by **Talisman** » Sun Jun 08, 2008 8:04 pm

IMO, wish as a spell is a stupid idea. Wish as a granted power makes more sense, since something (never a PC) is, literally, "granting" the wish. This also provides a plausible reason for the players to be careful and the GM to "reinterpret" their wishes...if you bargain with a pit fiend, you deserve what you get.

I'm blessed with players who are above the 5-year-old mentality. My view on wishes is, if you don't try to abuse the power, I won't twist the intent. Leave the Legalese to the lawyers; fantasy heroes don' talk like that, and I can still fvck you up if I want to.

I can completely understand why you're disallowing wish, Jerry.

Jerry · Post by **Jerry** » Sun Jun 08, 2008 8:18 pm

Talisman wrote: I can completely understand why you're disallowing wish, Jerry.

*Sniff*

Finally, someone feels my pain!

Fwib · Post by **Fwib** » Sun Jun 08, 2008 10:17 pm

It isn't the greater powers that are the problem, since they are explicitly nerfable with gobs of backfire by DM fiat. It's the lesser powers (create magic item), which are hugely unlimited, combined with no-player-xp-burn Wishes.

I don't believe that Frank ever suggested getting an artefact with Wish, did he?

virgil · Post by **virgil** » Sun Jun 08, 2008 10:23 pm

Not that hugely matters, lacking artifacts. Making custom magic items that are worth 200k for each and every body slot will give you immense benefits that not only compete with an artifact, but are without their hideous drawbacks; and this is assuming a non-epic game for even that much of a cap.

Bigode · Post by **Bigode** » Sun Jun 08, 2008 10:45 pm

Frank actually talked about using the stuff that's not reliant on GM fiat to make infinite-wish rings. And ban the greater powers if that's the sole problem - it's not like it'll be weak being "just" anyspell.

Jerry · Post by **Jerry** » Sun Jun 08, 2008 11:01 pm

Bigode wrote:Frank actually talked about using the stuff that's not reliant on GM fiat to make infinite-wish rings.

That too is a problem. I took the 25,000 gp cap house rule that Frank and K thought up of.

virgil · Post by **virgil** » Sun Jun 08, 2008 11:05 pm

Not so much of a house rule, as it is an acknowledgement that 3.0's ruling was better than 3.5 in that manner.

Bigode · Post by **Bigode** » Sun Jun 08, 2008 11:27 pm

Jerry wrote:That too is a problem. I took the 25,000 gp cap house rule that Frank and K thought up of.

The thing is, you'd be better off uncapping gold, using the Wish Economy, and keeping Sp/Su abilities from making XP-costing wishes (or making then cost XP too).

Aktariel · Post by **Aktariel** » Sun Jun 08, 2008 11:38 pm

Frank and K's cap was 15K, if I'm not mistaken.

Also, Google "The Wish and The Word," and you can see how truly broken Wish is even without the greater powers.

That, and you get to see Frank and K optimize. It's %@$*&^ scary.

Bigode · Post by **Bigode** » Sun Jun 08, 2008 11:41 pm

Aktariel wrote:Frank and K's cap was 15K, if I'm not mistaken.

15,000 for items, 25,000 for gold.

Judging__Eagle · Post by **Judging__Eagle** » Wed Jun 11, 2008 12:37 pm

I actually ended up giving wishes at my players at level 7 (thanks in part to some shenanigans on their part). The 15,000 gp cap on magic items made making giant piles of gold for a dragon to sleep on be not a big deal.

The look on your players faces, who were just 3 sessions ago completely delerious that they got a belt of +2 Con, when they see a pile of gold worth at least 10 million GP is priceless.

They just got frustrated and kicked the gold as if it were shit.

They were however happy to find a magic staff that none of them could use.

Since they could trade it for a magic item past the 15,000 gp cap.

The +5 to all stats wasn't a big deal either; mostly since I run games with Elite Array (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8) for everyone.

Voss · Post by **Voss** » Wed Jun 11, 2008 3:54 pm

So you have to give them stat boosters or they die?

Judging__Eagle · Post by **Judging__Eagle** » Wed Jun 11, 2008 5:32 pm

No, I give them stat boosts b/c they performed some task for a creature (a Nalfeshnee mayor in some lower-plane city) and got a pile of gems; that they then used in a wise fashion. They bought wishes by talking to a Cleric that the Paladin and Druid could conceivably talk to; the cleric then talked to a Noble Djinni, you can see where this goes next. From now on I won't allow that again.

The monsters and locations that I use in my adventures have nearly no favoratism, being based on dice rolls that I ask the players to make. Then I consult the various DMG tables to see what Plane and monsters they will face.

The 1st roll is for the location of the adventure; then rolls on the PCs level table to see what sort of encounters they'll see; outsider, humanoids, undead, construct, vermin. From there I pull out a monster manual and find monsters that fit the bill, both in terms of CR and 'flavour'.

It's not a very rigid system, but I'm able to keep a theme in an adventure pretty easy (MM 1, 2, 3 and Libris Mortis are all that I've got to draw monsters from, but it worked pretty well).

Really, I think that the best stories are ones that aren't predicable, so this method really works for me and results in interesting encounters for the group. Like the time that the PCs bribed a Hamatula Sheriff into letting them enter the city; or when they bought a Unicorn that a Dretch had for sale (who they promptly let go); or the time that the barbarian was alone in an Ice wizard's caverns and found a creature that couldn't harm her in any fashion (Ice Salamander), so she befriended it (more like keeps bribing it with food).

RandomCasualty2 · Post by **RandomCasualty2** » Wed Jun 11, 2008 5:40 pm

Judging__Eagle wrote: The look on your players faces, who were just 3 sessions ago completely delerious that they got a belt of +2 Con, when they see a pile of gold worth at least 10 million GP is priceless.

They just got frustrated and kicked the gold as if it were shit.

I never really got why people think gold in the wish economy is useless. I mean, seriously, you can't buy magic items, but gold is still fine for crafting items, so your party wizard or artificer can just go crazy with craft wondrous item, craft wand or what not.

Judging__Eagle · Post by **Judging__Eagle** » Wed Jun 11, 2008 5:59 pm

Well, useless in terms of getting powerful items.

The wizard didn't craft anything and there was no fighter in the group.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Thu Jun 12, 2008 5:16 am

I'd make sure to keep all the gold. I'd make stuff out of it - not magic items, mind you. But I'd start with gold clothes, then work on gold-plating the house, then an actual house of gold...

SunTzuWarmaster · Post by **SunTzuWarmaster** » Thu Jun 12, 2008 10:59 am

Koumei wrote:I'd make sure to keep all the gold. I'd make stuff out of it - not magic items, mind you. But I'd start with gold clothes, then work on gold-plating the house, then an actual house of gold...

But first you would start with hiring an "honest" team of henchmen to move all of the gold out of the dragons lair and to your house where no one would be able to take it? A Bag of Holding can only hold 60 pounds of gold if it holds nothing else, and you can't carry very many of those (although you can buy them at 10K each).

Seriously, you are better off going back to town, telling them the location of a giant pile of wealth, and asking for a giant party (because you can just HAVE anything that gold could get you), because it is more fun than the "excavate the dragon lair" adventure, and they might even give you a 15K+ item (which you care about).

In the Wish economy, gold really is worthless. For instance...
"I'd start with gold clothes"->"I wish for gold clothes"
"then work on gold-plating the house"->"I wish the house had gold-plating"
"then an actual actual house of gold"->"I wish I had a gold house"

Can we fight the monsters now?

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Thu Jun 12, 2008 1:27 pm

Well, true, but check this trick out:

"We cart all the gold back. It takes time. Once that's done..."

See how cool that was? I just jumped ahead through time. And you can totally do that in roleplaying games. They even recommend it.

Which isn't to say I wouldn't save in-game time and wish for that stuff in the Wish economy, but it's still no trouble.

RandomCasualty2 · Post by **RandomCasualty2** » Thu Jun 12, 2008 6:04 pm

To solve the binding for more wishes, I just gave my creatures a genie's immunity. That is regardless of what spells you put on him, charm, dominate, binding, whatever. He is always of his own free will to twist the wish. You can get a wish out of him, but you cannot stop him from twisting it.

Judging__Eagle · Post by **Judging__Eagle** » Thu Jun 12, 2008 7:56 pm

My players ask the Genie or Djinni if it's okay that they'll use the 1st wish to give the Genie/Djinni a giant gem, and then get the next two for no strings.

Which is reasonable, but still creates crazy town for wishes.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Fri Jun 13, 2008 2:16 am

SunTzuWarmaster wrote:A Bag of Holding can only hold 60 pounds of gold if it holds nothing else, and you can't carry very many of those (although you can buy them at 10K each).

Which is why you do the following:

1:Buy a Type 4 bag of holding.
2:Buy a Type 3 bag of holding.
2a: stick the type 4 bag into the type 3.
3:Buy a Type 2 bag of holding.
3a: stick the type 3 bag into the type 2 bag.
4:Buy a Type 1 bag of holding.
4a:stick the type 2 bag into the type 1 bag.

and there you go, 3250 lbs(500 cubic feet) of storage, and you're only carrying 15 lbs. You can keep doing this, too, sticking more bag-loaded type 1 bags into the first type one bag, especially considering that a type 1 bag of holding can hold a type 2 and 15 type 1 bags... a single person can walk out of the dragon's lair with a flour sack over his shoulder completely unencombered, and have the dragon's entire horde.

as to the actual topic... why not just have the wish granting creature in question ask the most obvious question of all: "Why should I help you?" You can then have the players roleplay trying to convince the efreet or solar or whatever to either help them or "suffer the consequences". essentially.