4th Edition Quirks

The 13 Wise Buttlords · Thu Jun 19, 2008 1:38 pm

Really simple min-maxxing for 4th Ed:

Be an intelligence/wisdom wizard while putting juuuust enough points in dexterity.

'Multiclass', or rather this games' weaksauce attempt at it, into a ranger. Here's what you get:

Right away, you get Hunter's Quarry, which is a nice extra 3.5 damage to your attacks against one enemy when you sorely need it.

Much later on in life and more interestingly, however, you get access to their Utility Power stances. I'm fond of the one that adds wisdom to all of your damage.

Mind you, after a few splatbooks come out this may not be desired or even viable because multiclassing in this game is a fool's game. But there are so few good options for a wizard to spend their feats on that this might be worth it.

While we're on the subject, how do powers that act as a replacement for basic attacks (like magic missile) interact with other powers? Does magic missile count as a weapon? Can you, more importantly, use it with that ranger's damn double-shoot feat?

Why or why not?

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Thu Jun 19, 2008 1:49 pm

The 13 Wise Buttlords wrote: While we're on the subject, how do powers that act as a replacement for basic attacks (like magic missile) interact with other powers?

As far as I can tell, they don't. So whereas it used to be "A wizard who runs out of spells uses a crossbow. Have a nap before this happens." it's now "A wizard who runs out of so-called-good spells uses magic missile. Have a nap before this happens."

Does magic missile count as a weapon?

Nope.

Can you, more importantly, use it with that ranger's damn double-shoot feat?

Probably not. What does the feat specifically state it works with?

Why or why not?

EXCEPTION-BASED DESIGN!

Sorry, I've been wanting an opportunity to shout that out, imitating the fuckwits who think EBD is the answer to everything. In this case though, it basically IS "it doesn't say you can, so you can't."

Voss · Post by **Voss** » Thu Jun 19, 2008 1:55 pm

It counts as a basic ranged attack, so it should work.
But... eh. I can't get excited by your min-maxing. Even with damage you're adding, it still doesn't make that much difference. Especially not compared to everything you're setting on fire to do it.

RandomCasualty2 · Post by **RandomCasualty2** » Thu Jun 19, 2008 6:25 pm

Another thing that seems bad is that based on how the healing system works (you start at 0 hp and heal from there), it pretty much encourages monsters to run up and CdG people when they drop, because it's so efficient to heal someone in 4E (especially given its a minor action.)

Fwib · Post by **Fwib** » Thu Jun 19, 2008 9:03 pm

The 13 Wise Buttlords wrote:Right away, you get Hunter's Quarry, which is a nice extra 3.5 damage to your attacks against one enemy when you sorely need it.

Only one attack per encounter, 'cos they errata'd it. So until they errata it again so that people with the ranger multiclass feat can take ranger Paragon Paths, the feat is arguably the weakest of its type.

[edit] Clarifying. Because Voss noted I was unclear below: You only get to use the Hunter's Quarry once for one or two rounds per encounter ("until the end of your next turn") with the Warrior of the Wild feat - and per the standard rules for Hunter's Quarry, you only get bonus damage once per round - so at best you could get bonus damage twice, not once, as I said above.

Voss · Post by **Voss** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 1:02 am

More particularly its 1 round per encounter. Which is just a waste of a minor action, frankly. All the base multiclass feats suck ass.

The fighter one makes me laugh and laugh and laugh. +1 to hit with a certain type of weapon, once per encounter? How does that come across as anything other than a joke?

Jerry · Post by **Jerry** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 1:20 am

Voss wrote:The fighter one makes me laugh and laugh and laugh. +1 to hit with a certain type of weapon, once per encounter? How does that come across as anything other than a joke?

Sounds like a limited Weapon Focus to me!

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 1:32 am

The rogue one isn't completely awful. You get Sneak Attack once per encounter.

When making up a Warlock, I was at a loss of feats to take after the basics were taken, so decided to take the rogue "dip". Combine it with either a duelling dagger or 2 cold-dealing abilities and the two cold feats (1 causes a cold attack to grant Vulnerability 10 to cold, the other causes any cold-vulnerable foe hit by a cold attack to give you combat advantage), and it's free extra damage.

Of course, it really isn't. This "free extra damage" applies when you use a basic attack with a light blade. So really, you whip it out once you've used your more powerful Encounter powers. If you have an auto-crit ability, use it then (no adding your huge Cha/Con to it, but more dice to maximise) with the duelling dagger (d8s for the crit).

RandomCasualty2 · Post by **RandomCasualty2** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 6:36 pm

Voss wrote:More particularly its 1 round per encounter. Which is just a waste of a minor action, frankly. All the base multiclass feats suck ass.

The fighter one makes me laugh and laugh and laugh. +1 to hit with a certain type of weapon, once per encounter? How does that come across as anything other than a joke?

Well, actually getting divine challenge is pretty damn awesome if you're a ranged character. I really can't see why a warlock or bow ranger wouldn't want to pick up paladin multiclassing because your elven ranger can pretty much just dance around the battlefield ducking between your own allies while the enemy creature chases you around. Either that or it takes divine challenge damage and a penalty to hit.

If you mark someone as a character with a high AC, that's good. But marking someone with a character that the enemy can't even attack at all is even better.

The clerioc and warlord ones aren't terrible. You get healing once per day, but it's a minor action, which is pretty awesome since it's the equivalent of getting another daily power. I can definitely see taking those.

The wizard one isn't bad, just because you can pick up cloud of daggers which is all you'll ever need to kill minions.

The fighter one is horrible. I really can't believe they let that one through.

MartinHarper · Post by **MartinHarper** » Sat Jun 21, 2008 12:29 pm

FrankTrollman wrote:Just mark your friend 5 squares away and then don't attack him or end your turn next to him. You can't challenge on your next turn (but you can use your minor actions for other things), and the mark you put on your friend falls off altogether.

I believe that it falls off at the end of the paladin's next turn. The text gives three things that a paladin might do:
1. attack the marked creature.
2. end adjacent to the marked creature.
3. mark another creature.

If "none of these events occur by the end of your turn, the marked condition ends". So, since event #3 happened, when the paladin marked his ally, this means that the marked condition does not end. An exception: if this is the first mark the paladin has used this encounter, it does end, as event #3 has not occured.
(this is from the dragonborn paladin from the preview, so I guess it may have changed).

Could be wrong. It's bizarre wording.

josephbt · Post by **josephbt** » Sat Jun 21, 2008 3:18 pm

Why would anyone use Disenchant Magic Item ritual? If i sell the item, i get 1/5 its value in magic dust. If i use the stupid ritual, i get the same amount, minus the 25gp it cost to do the ritual.

If i try to Enchant MI, i can use money instead of magic dust, so again, no reason to do it. What good is DMI?

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Sat Jun 21, 2008 3:20 pm

josephbt wrote:Why would anyone use Disenchant Magic Item ritual? If i sell the item, i get 1/5 its value in magic dust. If i use the stupid ritual, i get the same amount, minus the 25gp it cost to do the ritual.

If i try to Enchant MI, i can use money instead of magic dust, so again, no reason to do it. What good is DMI?

It's a method to "loot dungeons." You can spend 25 gp to transform magic items into something that is portable.

-Username17

josephbt · Post by **josephbt** » Sat Jun 21, 2008 3:44 pm

Portable holes and Bags of holding are still available. Why not stash everything inside them? And carrying capacity is ludicrous, 10xSTR. I can carry everything even if im a wizzard with a STR8.

virgil · Post by **virgil** » Sat Jun 21, 2008 3:59 pm

Considering how you can only sell magic items to merchants for one-fifth their value, it's the same as if you had just sold it to a merchant. Once you add in the 10-40% markup for actually buying magic items from a merchant, then it's even better to just enter the dungeon, disenchant and renchant all of your gear, and come out even shinier without ever talking to civilization.

Voss · Post by **Voss** » Sat Jun 21, 2008 4:00 pm

Portable holes aren't storage anymore. It literally makes a warner brothers style hole in a surface

Maxus · Post by **Maxus** » Sat Jun 21, 2008 4:49 pm

Voss wrote:Portable holes aren't storage anymore. It literally makes a warner brothers style hole in a surface

If it worked on creatures, and especially dragons, it'd be awesome.

virgil · Post by **virgil** » Sat Jun 21, 2008 4:55 pm

It does, except that portable holes are precisely one square in size, and you cannot close it and pick it up if there's any creature or object inside it.

Maxus · Post by **Maxus** » Sat Jun 21, 2008 5:53 pm

Well, I was thinking more like, "Apply Portable Hole to side of dragon. Attack revealed, vulnerable internal organs for automatic critical damage."

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Sun Jun 22, 2008 3:53 am

Hit the weak point for massive damage!

The 13 Wise Buttlords · Sun Jun 22, 2008 7:07 am

I'm pretty confused on the multiclassing paragon features.

So I reach level 11 in whatever class after having blown my feats on silly things, including the four multiclassing feats needed to take the Paragon Multiclassing option on page 209.

So instead of getting a paragon path power at level 11, I pick up an at-will power in my secondary class.

Then... what?

A) Do I just not get any paragon abilities ever? That really, really sucks especially since paragon multiclassing doesn't give you any new abilities, it just replaces them.

B) Or do I still pick a paragon class and get the class abilities, I just get the option of swapping out abilities rather than gain new ones?

If you tell me option 'A' is what happens, please tell me what goes on when I select a paragon path and then meet all four multiclass requirements or what happens when I swap out a multiclass feat for a real one.

This game is so damn stupid sometimes. Fucking exception-based design.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Sun Jun 22, 2008 7:31 am

The 13 Wise Buttlords wrote: This game is so damn stupid sometimes. Fucking exception-based design.

I smile every time I read that.

Just yesterday I was explaining to someone on /tg/ that in 4E a certain thing wasn't possible, and EBD is the exact reason why - they can't make ability A interact with ability B, because every ability is a bubble with an individual rule inside it.

It made him cry. WotC are using EBD to bring their fans to tears. I now want to run a campaign where a group of coastal wizards are screwing with reality, making it so gravity doesn't interact with inertia which in turn doesn't interact with friction and all that.

The 13 Wise Buttlords · Sun Jun 22, 2008 7:37 am

http://forums.gleemax.com/leaving.php?d ... %3D1045011

I have no idea what these guys are talking about.

Multiclassing paragon warpriest? WTF? How the spoot does THAT work?

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Sun Jun 22, 2008 8:25 am

As far as I can tell, these guys are thinking hopefully that taking Initiate of the Faith allows them to meet the Warpriest prerequisite of being a Cleric. Indeed, it seemingly does, since they helpfully filled in this line:

PHB, p. 208 wrote:A character who has taken a class-specific multiclass feat counts as a member of that class for the purpose of meeting prerequisites for taking other feats and qualifying for paragon paths.

In addition there is also the option on page 209 to "Paragon Multiclass" where you set your entire character on actual fire. This is a separate thing where you get to not have any Paragon class features and trade all your Paragon ability gains from level 11-20 for lower level abilities from another class. This is a terrible thing that you would never ever do to yourself.

So yeah, taking the very first Multiclass feat is just like taking Skill Training but very slightly better and it allows you to take a Paragon path off the other class' list. And if you cared, that would matter. But by and large, most Paragon Paths give pretty similar abilities but require different attributes and equipment from the Paragon paths that are native to your own class. But there is some overlap, I mean a Tron Paladin might be pretty happy to take Kensai off the Fighter list, +4 damage per attack is what qualifies as a powerful ability in 4e.

-Username17

The 13 Wise Buttlords · Sun Jun 22, 2008 12:22 pm

Right now, I'm trying to think of a way to make it so that you can dual-wield glaives such that you can use Off-Hand Parry (Epic Feat) / Twin Strike (RNG 1) / That Polearm Reach Feat (Paragon) /and Heavy Blade Optimization (Paragon Feat) at once.

Or if it's impossible, I'd also like to know of a way to make it very easy for a character to make an opportunity attack trigger. The easiest way seems to be to make a X / Warpriest and use their marking power, but I have no idea how to force monsters to shift so you can trigger your attacks and make your dice explode.

Being able to dish out 4 [2W] attacks with an at-will power before expansion options via opportunity attacks is very respectable for this game, I guess.

(By the way, really simple high-level Ranger archer cheese. Be a Ranger/Cleric multiclass. Pick up the Holy Weapon daily power. Pick up Twin Strike. Get a Holy Avenger Throwing Hammer/Battleaxe. Now sit back and sigh as you dish out up to two 3d10+1d6+5 (average 25) damage per attack before we get into expansion options. This isn't even exciting at all but it's probably the best you can get out of an at-will power.)

While we're on the subject, for one-on-one battles against PCs the easiest thing to do seems to be to get the Ranger/Cleric on that stupid cloud chariot spell and shift and dance on/around the chariot to avoid ranged counter-attacks with your Immediate Interrupts. Since Rangers have immediate interrupts for encounter, daily, AND utility powers you'll wear down your opponents in the war of power attrition and then fill them full of arrows. Or just activate Epic Trick and do it all over again.

Really, really stupid but safe.

The 13 Wise Buttlords · Sun Jun 22, 2008 12:26 pm

I just also noticed how retarded item pricing is in 4E.

I mean, it was stupid as well in 3E but it's just going fucking out of control by now. You can buy three holy avengers for a +5 bonus and still end up with more cheddar than a holy avenger with a +6 bonus.

WTF is up with this math? How did they make it worse in this edition?