Eberron Sucks?

[Ice9]

How do they make psionics happen if they don't have a fucking body to gesture with?

Because psionics doesn't need gestures. Or chanting, or bat guano.

[Koumei]

'I have already stated why, multiple times, in this thread why that is not so.

Putting aside the argument of "They need to talk" "No they don't", you could seriously just remove the Sorcerer component requirements and it suddenly would work. Done. Problem solved. They can be all speshul and amazing and it makes hardly any difference unless you seriously intend on spending three feats to run around in full plate.

But it does mean that you have a psion who, as you so desperately require, doesn't need to wave his arms around, fling shit at people to burn them, or shout out the names of his attacks.

All you need to do then is add a note saying "Balance: yes it's better than a regular Sorcerer, but it's a minor benefit so we don't care and neither should you. Besides, it's still not as kick-ass as a Wizard."

Suddenly everyone is happy. And that would be a better way to have psionics than to use the Expanded Joke Book and Complete Shit. And not only because of the type of people spawned by those books.

Edit: Sorry, I fucked the tags up... after voicing my annoyance at others doing just that.

[NoDot]

Koumei, I'm curious. Is it the flavor or the mechanics of Psionics that you don't like.

And again for the record, I've suspected that the first nine levels of Conduit to the Lower Planes reflavored would make for a better "Psion" than the Sorcerer as written.

As to your suggestion, two words: Charm Person.

[Judging__Eagle]

Even normal people do the same thing when they are thinking about something, they scratch their head, or rub their chin, or thrum their fingers on a table, or they set themselves to auto-fail all listen and spot checks while concentrating on their mental problem.

Way to argue so convincingly against yourself. No ask yourself the following question:

Would those people be unable to think if the could not scratch their head? Or is it just a comfortable gesture that they take advantage of when it is an option, but has no bearing whatsoever on whether they are capable of doing the action in question?

They'd think poorly. They wouldn't think as well. They're used to their methods of concentration. Still spell and Silent spell reduce your most powerful spells known by one spell level each when used.

Not using a physical or verbal element in your actions makes performing certain actions more difficult.

As for Prof X sometimes not gesturing, are you able to say that when he wasn't gesturing that he was engaged in a physical combat at the time with a monster of some sort?

Or was he staying completely still and concentrating, but pretty much utterly helpless?

Because that's seriously a pair of options that the Psi-Sorcere could have:

Code: Select all

[b]Psionic Concentration:[/b] Psions do not need to gesture or speak in order to manifest their abilities. Instead they may choose to make a concentration check before manifesting their ability, the DC is 20 + Level of Power Manifested.

[b]Immobile Psionics[/b]: A Psion may stand completely still while manifesting their powers, doing so leaves them [i]Helpless[/i] until the begining of their next round.

That's really what I see happen in instances when a 'mental' character doesn't gesture or say anything. . They don't move, since they're focusing all of their concentration on the task at hand, or they're utterly helpless while in a trance.

I don't honestly think that Yoda could lift the X-wing if he wasn't concentrating; sure, he didn't move, but he wasn't doing anything else. That's a concentration check or being helpless right there.




Koumei, I think your tags need to be looked at.

[NoDot]

As for Prof X sometimes not gesturing, are you able to say that when he wasn't gesturing that he was engaged in a physical combat at the time with a monster of some sort?

Irrelevant.

Koumei, I think your tags need to be looked at.

Amazingly, I agree with something you said.

[Surgo]

They'd think poorly. They wouldn't think as well.

Is this a joke? If not, there's really no purpose trying to argue with you, because you have a basic stance on the concept that is completely different.

Strangely enough, I find that I can think as well when I rub my nonexistent beard (something I do fairly often at work) and when I don't (also something I do fairly often at work).


Also fix your fucking tags if you break the thread, PLEASE. It doesn't take that much effort to just view your post after making it.

[Koumei]

Fixed.

As for what I don't like about psionics:

The mechanics are take-it-or-leave-it. They're a bit wobbly, but not exactly a problem - they can perform the odd power loop or broken tactic, but less so than magic, and the main problem is that the powers are balanced at being pumped up to PP = caster level. This simply means they have the option of not doing level-appropriate things.

It's not too bad, I just don't see the point.

-And using the Conduit could completely work as well - it even has the benefit of having thematic powers (which is a common trope of psychic stuff).

The flavour is what I hate. Even in a setting that psionics work for, it is filled with hippy new-age shit (see: crystals playing a huge role - even the fucking gem dragons). And it just gets worse when jammed into fantasy settings (and yes, some may argue I'm not being open minded enough. My answer to that is that an open mind can be like a fortress with the doors left open and unguarded. Or alternatively, two words of my own: "Suck it"). Psionics belong in sci-fi, "alternate world modern fantasy" and GrimDark Space Fantasy.

And as we've learned by now, print something in a WotC book, and people will demand to have it in the game. It seems to have started with psionics, and from there it's simply become accepted that if WotC makes a book about shit-flinging robots, then someone will demand to play a robotic shit-flinger in any game and expect to be obeyed.

And as long as people have that belief, I am going to take up the GrimDark view of psionics, which is "Keep a close eye on them. It might just be best to set fire to them if they get violent/look strange/you feel like it."

[NoDot]

Ah, well that explains things. Personally, I prefer the (interacting) Fantasy Kitchen Sink, myself.

[Koumei]

I tried Kitchen Sink a few times, and it became a bit of a mess. One could argue that Rifts, for instance, begins in the state of "a mess" and never gets out of it, due to being an extreme of Kitchen Sink.

That being said, I did see it work smoothly in a game of Planescape: we'd go to a different plane, and be subjected to the weird things of that setting. So we encountered psionics in the Dark Sun world. And taught them about gods, and added "Water" to Loviatar's domains, nearly endangering her Evil alignment in the process. Until we drove other people out of business by underpricing our created water, and created more suffering.

Anyway, we dealt with psionics and desecration magic (or whatever it was called), and if a new player had joined us then, they could have brought that new element to the table. Then we went to Mechanus, and dealt with magical planar robot lawyers.

That being said, because I know Kitchen Sink Fantasy *can* work sometimes, I hold nothing against those who prefer it. As long as, when everyone sits down at the table, they know whether to expect anything and everything, or whether it's a specific genre.

[Talisman]

I find that the best gaming experiences I've had are those with a tight focus on what genre they want to emulate. Anything that doesn't fit is either disallowed or reflavored so it makes some sort of sense.

Regarding psionics: has anyone checked out Green Ronin's Psychic's Handbook? It looks good and flavorful, but I haven't crunched any numbers yet, and being skill-based could make it wonky.

[Voss]

I tried Kitchen Sink a few times, and it became a bit of a mess. One could argue that Rifts, for instance, begins in the state of "a mess" and never gets out of it, due to being an extreme of Kitchen Sink.

You're being... kind. Though to be fair, most of the problems with Rifts don't come from the Kitchen Sink angle. It comes from Kevin's complete lack of skill as a game designer and a complete refusal to recognize that a minimum of ballpark level balance is pretty necessary to an RPG. For example, take a party including a Ley Line Wizard, a vagabond, a full conversion cyborg and a glitterboy pilot. Two of those characters will suck at the start of the game, one will never be even passable, while the other will slowly progress to levels where he doesn't completely suck. As for the other two characters, the 'borg will always be inferior to the GB pilot at his actual job, unless the GM forces situations where the pilot is stuck away from his armor, in which case that character is completely useless. And situational suckage isn't fun on a regular basis.

Moral of the story: if you want a game with giant mecha, everybody should have one. You certainly don't want to give them bigger guns and better armor than everyone else, *plus* extra attacks for simply sitting in their giant robot. And if you have magic, don't give them a bunch of immunities for being inside the mecha. Because really, the other people might as well not be there at that point.

[Koumei]

If the campaign lasts any real time (which they tend not to, because Rifts encourages a type of player base where somehow, everyone ends up killing each other before one mission is over), then glitterboys and borgs have one weakness:

The MDC doesn't regenerate. It costs more than the game suggests you earn to get it repaired (everything is fucking expensive in that game), so you basically get chiselled down until death occurs.

A dragon hatchling, on the other hand, has magic (less starting spells than a ley line walker, but can learn them like one... probably has more PPE to cast them, too), psionics (less so than a mind melter, but still doing okay), supernatural strength powering the various attacks, and regenerating MDC.

But yeah. Balance just doesn't exist there, and it makes me sad. But the lack of any kind of limitations on the setting - you don't know what you might see next, because there isn't anything that can't exist - also makes it a bit of a mess.

At the end of the day, it feels as though somewhere there's something cool, but the effort to reach it is more than anyone should be expected to go through.

[shau]

For example, take a party including a Ley Line Wizard, a vagabond, a full conversion cyborg and a glitterboy pilot. Two of those characters will suck at the start of the game, one will never be even passable, while the other will slowly progress to levels where he doesn't completely suck. As for the other two characters...

Check your math there.

I remain irrationally fond of Rifts. The play mechanics were horrible, but I am not sure that the we-are-not-even-attempting-to-balance-the-classes attitude is entirely wrong. In DnD 3rd edition you were asked to choose between classes that were said to be equal but were not. In Rifts, one of your character choices is hobo and if you pick that you had to have known that you were picking a low powered character. Similarly, if you picked the guy who began play with mecha armor that was by far and away the most powerful thing in the book and would stay that way for at least 12 books of powercreep you knew you were taking a strong character.

[Judging__Eagle]

Shau, you make a good point.

Rifts didn't pretend that a Hatchling was equal to a Vagabond scholar. At least it has the fact that it's honest about its unbalance issues going for it.

[virgil]

Doesn't change the fact it's horribly unbalanced, as admitting you have a problem is only the first step, which Siembieda has been steadfast in not advancing any further than that. And that's just the class balance. The rules themselves are crap too, and as you progress through the book series, it ends up looking like every other fanboy-wankerism converging into a point.

If you go as heavy as you Frank & K did with the Tome series, with an extra emphasis on the setting, then you can get something that can vaguely support itself, as long as you can appreciate its goal

[Voss]

For example, take a party including a Ley Line Wizard, a vagabond, a full conversion cyborg and a glitterboy pilot. Two of those characters will suck at the start of the game, one will never be even passable, while the other will slowly progress to levels where he doesn't completely suck. As for the other two characters...

Check your math there.

No need. I choose those numbers intentionally. I didn't phrase it quite right, though. I should have said 'of the two characters that suck at the start of the game, one will...'

I remain irrationally fond of Rifts. The play mechanics were horrible, but I am not sure that the we-are-not-even-attempting-to-balance-the-classes attitude is entirely wrong. In DnD 3rd edition you were asked to choose between classes that were said to be equal but were not. In Rifts, one of your character choices is hobo and if you pick that you had to have known that you were picking a low powered character. Similarly, if you picked the guy who began play with mecha armor that was by far and away the most powerful thing in the book and would stay that way for at least 12 books of powercreep you knew you were taking a strong character.

Intentional stupidity doesn't make it OK. It just means that everyone has to be one the same page, or the campaign is going to suck. Everyone has to be strong, or everyone has to weaken themselves to the weakest class, and the GM *absolutely* has to account for that, or he'll wipe the party instantly.

You really can't play a hobo and a mecha pilot, because the hobo will get vaporized by incidentals that the mecha pilot won't even notice.

It also doesn't help that all the generic fantasy and sci-fi tropes (even fucking nazis) jammed together and swirled doesn't really make for an interesting setting.

[Hey_I_Can_Chan]

DnD 3rd edition you were asked to choose between classes that were said to be equal but were not. In Rifts, one of your character choices is hobo and if you pick that you had to have known that you were picking a low powered character. Similarly, if you picked the guy who began play with mecha armor that was by far and away the most powerful thing in the book and would stay that way for at least 12 books of powercreep you knew you were taking a strong character.

My understanding of Rifts is that skills balance everything. Remember, in the core game--although it is stupid--if you didn't have a skill, you couldn't even attempt it. None of this working-from-defaults-a-la-GURPS bullshit, none of this using-this-skill-untrained bullshit; no, you ain't got on your sheet, you ain't doin' it.

Yeah, period. Done.

That's what balanced the dragon hatchling against the vagabond (or, more likely, city rat or rogue scholar, because, really, who chooses hobo as their class?): the skills. A dragon can't do anything BUT kick ass, while the rogue scholar actually knew how to do stuff. Using the RA (awfully) W, that's actually a decent bit of balance. Nobody ever played that way, so godlings and dragons dominated, but I always got the impression that's how things were supposed to be played.

When the game makes damage dealing easy ("Roll higher than a 5 on a d20!") but makes skill use a PITA ("You have a 20% Prowl chance!"), those skills gain value because of their rarity.

I, too, maintain a soft spot for Rifts, if only because I found the core rulebook absolutely awesome when I was forced to take my college's Western Civ I class, which, during a particularly dull lecture, I read the whole fucking book. Science fantasy is rarely attempted in gaming, and even more rarely successful (Torg, anyone?), so Rifts was awesome. Phase World remains ripe for a d20 adaptation.

[Midnight_v]

.... I personally really liked psychic warriors... I could never convince the dm a the time to give me the full bab, becasue he wouldn't belive fighting sucked anyway and it really made no difference cept me using claws and tentacles instead of the swords and baseball bats and shit I wanted to use I liked it still thinking it was kind of what a fighter should do in a magical world Power up/whip you ass/and have utility powers as well.

Though the argument of "I don't like the flavor, is just as much bullshit as, I like the flavor" so yeah its a personal cock slap for many.

I'd like to play a psywar for the mechanics Doean't mean I'm running around pretending to be Cable or a fuckin jedi. Which should be why you hate them most likely. I suppose if you were like okay play a figher and every couple levels you get spell likes or supernaturals to augment your general badassery, I'd take that too...

I suppose I like it because it showed up right at a time I'd be playing a figther/barbarian or some shit, and realized...
... I'm the casters bitch... :shock:
I had to wait for buffing and shit to do my job. I guess I like the self-buffing fighter, I was comfortable witht he psywars ability to do it some what.

I can't really say about the psion being a sorc but out of the XPH we did get the psywar which for me was what outlined a lot of problems with the game.
From oh shit fighters need more, to: Psionics aren't broken/you dont' know what the fuck your talking about the shit barely works...

So ... meh.