Let's get rid of monster fetishism. All of it.

[JonSetanta]

When I've run games I usually just make up new monsters and even new races so that it is actually exciting to experience things in the game. I suppose that might be one of the few redeemable aspects of the 4e MM that it expressly states that you can take a stat block and paste any description on it that you want.

I've advocated that for years, and people have kept looking at me like I was crazy.

Really? I've been doing that for years, much to the complaint of a friend.

Him: 'But we don't know what to expect. We can't anticipate for anything."
Me: "Exactly."

[Voss]

Also halflings, because of the 'useless as shit' factor and the number of things in D&Dland that would have eaten them back at the dawn of time

I totally don't understand where the 'halflings are useless' meme comes from.

Directly from LotR. Boromir takes down a dozen or two Uruk-hai, and Pippin and Merry get carted off like fucking luggage. And except for stabbing a single enemy that literally doesn't give a flying fuck about them (each) they remain fucking luggage, to be carted around and given plot exposition on behalf of the readers. (Who they are essentially standing in for the entire time).

Frodo wins not because he's awesome, but because orcs are apparently blind to racial differences and his enemies are stupid and clumsy. Any hiker with writer imposed 'resistance to corruption' would have been just as good, and possibly less whiny.

[angelfromanotherpin]

Directly from LotR. Boromir takes down a dozen or two Uruk-hai, and Pippin and Merry get carted off like fucking luggage. And except for stabbing a single enemy that literally doesn't give a flying fuck about them (each) they remain fucking luggage, to be carted around and given plot exposition on behalf of the readers. (Who they are essentially standing in for the entire time).

Have you even read the fucking book?

'Merry and he [Pippin] had drawn their swords, but the Orcs did not wish to fight and tried only to lay hold of them, even when Merry had cut off several of their arms and hands.'

Any hiker with writer imposed 'resistance to corruption' would have been just as good, and possibly less whiny.

It's not an inherent bullshit 'resistance to corruption.' Frodo, like most hobbits, has no particular ambition for the ring to corrupt. It's a societal thing, all they want is to farm, smoke, and write poetry. The hard part is finding a hobbit who's willing and able to undergo the rest of the hardships along the way.

Its like in First Lensman, when the first Lensman is looking for other people to join up, but finds very few because total incorruptibility is a prereq, and totally incorruptible humans are hard to find. Then he finds a race of totally incorruptible aliens, but most of them still don't qualify, because having a strong sense of self is as rare in them as incorruptibility is in humans, and that's also a requirement.

That's why Frodo and Sam are exceptional. Sam happens to be much more exceptional than Frodo, performing deeds of valor that Gimli or Legolas would hesitate to try, but whatever.

[Cynic]

Also halflings, because of the 'useless as shit' factor and the number of things in D&Dland that would have eaten them back at the dawn of time

I totally don't understand where the 'halflings are useless' meme comes from.

Directly from LotR. Boromir takes down a dozen or two Uruk-hai, and Pippin and Merry get carted off like fucking luggage. And except for stabbing a single enemy that literally doesn't give a flying fuck about them (each) they remain fucking luggage, to be carted around and given plot exposition on behalf of the readers. (Who they are essentially standing in for the entire time).
.

Aside from the other business that angelfromanotherpin mentions, many subtle references are made to the hardy race that the hobbits are and how they survive in a way.

Shit it could be said that most of their large defeats are plot device or puzzle defeats but there are many instances that speak otherwise such as the defeat of the wizard king (ringwraith uno), having their worth being recognized by both the Rohan and err... boromir's father (shit it's been age's since I've read the series) and being made their squires, the rewinning of the shire.

Those three events are pretty significant in that they actually speak to the ability of the hobbits (to this point merry/pippin) and their fortitude.

[Psychic Robot]

Denethor, steward of Gondor, is Boromir's father.

[Username17]

When I've run games I usually just make up new monsters and even new races so that it is actually exciting to experience things in the game. I suppose that might be one of the few redeemable aspects of the 4e MM that it expressly states that you can take a stat block and paste any description on it that you want.

I've advocated that for years, and people have kept looking at me like I was crazy.

I mean, an ideal system looks like the one I proposed in the TNE thread Mutants..... I guess I owe 4e a favor for getting people into the idea.

I would like there to be a fuck tonne less monsters. I want individual monsters to be special and interesting and shit, but honestly I don't want to encounter a brand new race of humanoids in every fucking valley my character ever goes. I want to see tall orcs and short orcs, green orcs and black orcs, hairy orcs and smooth orcs. And I want some of them to do crazy shit like not burn in fire or target by sense of hearing. But I want them to be orcs, because that way the world has continuity.

There's a lot you can do if each of the critters in the world has discretionary powers that are based on culture or habitat or whatever. And I would like to do more of that and less Quaggoths. Rather than having endless writeups of Ice Elves and Moon Elves and Tinfoil Elves or whatever, there should just be elves. And elves should have a discretionary cultural superpower budget just like everything else in the world.



-Username17

[Voss]

I totally don't understand where the 'halflings are useless' meme comes from.

Directly from LotR. Boromir takes down a dozen or two Uruk-hai, and Pippin and Merry get carted off like fucking luggage. And except for stabbing a single enemy that literally doesn't give a flying fuck about them (each) they remain fucking luggage, to be carted around and given plot exposition on behalf of the readers. (Who they are essentially standing in for the entire time).
.

Aside from the other business that angelfromanotherpin mentions, many subtle references are made to the hardy race that the hobbits are and how they survive in a way.

Shit it could be said that most of their large defeats are plot device or puzzle defeats but there are many instances that speak otherwise such as the defeat of the wizard king (ringwraith uno), having their worth being recognized by both the Rohan and err... boromir's father (shit it's been age's since I've read the series) and being made their squires, the rewinning of the shire.

Those three events are pretty significant in that they actually speak to the ability of the hobbits (to this point merry/pippin) and their fortitude.

What? Nailing the witch king involved the witch king actively ignoring him, and distracting him slightly so the girl could stab him in the face (and then she gets relegated back to *her* proper place, as somebody's wife, at least in the mid-century english worldview). That isn't a measure of ability, thats a measure of insignificance.

Same with 'impressing the rulers' its a fucking court jester role that amuses leaders who have far too much shit on their plates and are making a funny at the expense of the short folk. They didn't impress them, they amused them.

As for rewinning the shire... ugh. Yes, the mandated conflict to drive home an anti-technology pro-pastoral moral lesson was rather lame. Yes, the good people stood up to the bullies and won. Hip, hip, hooray for the British commons. Its patronizing, heavy-handed, and the quality of their enemies is particularly low (a wizard that can't do magic anymore and a handful of bandits? Oh noes!), so it isn't even that impressive.

[name_here]

Remember, Sam stabbed a minor deity spider in the stomach.

[K]

Remember, Sam stabbed a minor deity spider in the stomach.

Just because something gets worshiped doesn't make it a god.

[Judging__Eagle]

When I've run games I usually just make up new monsters and even new races so that it is actually exciting to experience things in the game. I suppose that might be one of the few redeemable aspects of the 4e MM that it expressly states that you can take a stat block and paste any description on it that you want.

I've advocated that for years, and people have kept looking at me like I was crazy.

Really? I've been doing that for years, much to the complaint of a friend.

Him: 'But we don't know what to expect. We can't anticipate for anything."
Me: "Exactly."

I did that, my players didn't like it.

But then, when I was forced to use only troglodytes for... 'several' sessions, I sort of got bored and started using 'magical troglodytes' (aka. Yuan-ti abominations).

I should run a whole dungeon with one race of monsters that looks a bit different. Characters with the right knowledge skills would know what special powers or weaknesses each monster would have, but that's it.

[name_here]

Remember, Sam stabbed a minor deity spider in the stomach.

Just because something gets worshiped doesn't make it a god.

And if my criteria were worship instead of being the daughter of someone who was able to blind nearly all the other deities and kill the magic trees of elf heaven, you might have a point.

[angelfromanotherpin]

What? Nailing the witch king involved the witch king actively ignoring him, and distracting him slightly so the girl could stab him in the face (and then she gets relegated back to *her* proper place, as somebody's wife, at least in the mid-century english worldview).

Um,no. Merry's strike is at least as important as Eowyn's. 'No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will.'

Same with 'impressing the rulers' its a fucking court jester role that amuses leaders who have far too much shit on their plates and are making a funny at the expense of the short folk. They didn't impress them, they amused them.

How you can read the interactions between Denethor and Pippin, or Theoden and Merry, and come away thinking that their relationship is anything like that is a mystery I will never comprehend. I'm noteven going to quote one of them to prove you wrong. There are too many.

As for rewinning the shire... ugh. Yes, the mandated conflict to drive home an anti-technology pro-pastoral moral lesson was rather lame. Yes, the good people stood up to the bullies and won. Hip, hip, hooray for the British commons. Its patronizing, heavy-handed, and the quality of their enemies is particularly low (a wizard that can't do magic anymore and a handful of bandits? Oh noes!), so it isn't even that impressive.

Yeah, I mean, Saruman is only eight times the mass of a hobbit and otherwise a combination of Leonardo da Vinci and Cardinal Richelieu. That's not dangerous at all. Also, he won in the Shire.

[Absentminded_Wizard]

I think it's pretty obvious that Voss is going by the theatrical versions of the movies (not the extended versions where Merry and Pippin take out a bunch of orcs by throwing rocks) rather than the books.

[Maxus]

Remember, Sam stabbed a minor deity spider in the stomach.

The spirits and god-things in LotR don't seem to be impervious to harm from mortals, if they descend to taking physical form. In the Silmarillion, an elf manages to permanently wound Morgoth, who was, for all intents and purposes, a deity.

[Maxus]

Remember, Sam stabbed a minor deity spider in the stomach.

The spirits and god-things in LotR don't seem to be impervious to harm from mortals, if they descend to taking physical form. In the Silmarillion, an elf manages to permanently wound Morgoth, who was, for all intents and purposes, a deity.

[angelfromanotherpin]

I think it's pretty obvious that Voss is going by the theatrical versions of the movies (not the extended versions where Merry and Pippin take out a bunch of orcs by throwing rocks) rather than the books.

Yeah, and I don't give those movies any weight compared to the book. If that's the case, he might as well be basing his arguments on the Ralph Bakshi animated version.

[K]

Remember, Sam stabbed a minor deity spider in the stomach.

Just because something gets worshiped doesn't make it a god.

And if my criteria were worship instead of being the daughter of someone who was able to blind nearly all the other deities and kill the magic trees of elf heaven, you might have a point.

Being descended from a god doesn't make a god either, at least in LotR.

I think the only criteria for divinity is "god-like power." Considering that all that spider thing seems capable of doing was eating a few orcs once in a while, it fails on that criteria too.

[name_here]

Though that is technically true, it is very hard, hence gandalf going up vs. the balrog alone, even with the entire rest of the fellowship standing right behind him.


EDIT: I don't know if that is accurate or not, since i can't recall even one other actual decendent of a deity from LoTR, but while checking, i at least confirmed that no one, at all, ever seriously hurt Shelob before.

[angelfromanotherpin]

Whether or not Shelob is 'a God,' insofar as there is more than one god in the essentially Christian Middle Earth, she is at the least an ageless magical spirit for whom you would deserve to have songs wrought in your name for defeating. In much the same way as Gandalf, Saruman, Sauron, and the Balrog are, though not of the same taxonomy.

[K]

Whether or not Shelob is 'a God,' insofar as there is more than one god in the essentially Christian Middle Earth, she is at the least an ageless magical spirit for whom you would deserve to have songs wrought in your name for defeating. In much the same way as Gandalf, Saruman, Sauron, and the Balrog are, though not of the same taxonomy.

Who says she's an ageless magical spirit? By the evidence, she's a big spider that got ganked by some halflings.

For all we know, orcs are arachnaphobes who could have killed her off years ago if they ever tried.

[Maxus]

Whether or not Shelob is 'a God,' insofar as there is more than one god in the essentially Christian Middle Earth, she is at the least an ageless magical spirit for whom you would deserve to have songs wrought in your name for defeating. In much the same way as Gandalf, Saruman, Sauron, and the Balrog are, though not of the same taxonomy.

Who says she's an ageless magical spirit. By the evidence, she's a big spider that got ganked by some halflings.

For all we know, orcs are arachnaphobes who could have killed her off years ago if they ever tried.

Her mother was some kinda demon-spirit. And Shelob had been in Cirith Ungol longer than Sauron had been in Mordor. It's safe to say that she's immortal, unless killed by violence.

[K]

Whether or not Shelob is 'a God,' insofar as there is more than one god in the essentially Christian Middle Earth, she is at the least an ageless magical spirit for whom you would deserve to have songs wrought in your name for defeating. In much the same way as Gandalf, Saruman, Sauron, and the Balrog are, though not of the same taxonomy.

Who says she's an ageless magical spirit. By the evidence, she's a big spider that got ganked by some halflings.

For all we know, orcs are arachnaphobes who could have killed her off years ago if they ever tried.

Her mother was some kinda demon-spirit. And Shelob had been in Cirith Ungol longer than Sauron had been in Mordor. It's safe to say that she's immortal, unless killed by violence.

She could have just been pretty long-lived and on her last legs and dying of old age, which is why a few halflings got the better of her.

My point that all the evidence points to her not being that impressive. She may have a great pedigree or reputation, but at the end of the day she didn't display any power greater than that possessed by a large dog in terrain favorable to it.

[angelfromanotherpin]

Who says she's an ageless magical spirit?

That would be the omnicient-third-person narrator.

'There agelong she had dwelt, an evil thing in spider-form, even such as once of old had lived in the Land of the Elves in the West that is now under the Sea, such a Beren fought in the Mountains of Terror in Doriath...'

'But still she was there, who was there before Sauron, and before the first stone of Barad-dûr; and she served none but herself, drinking the blood of Elves and Men, bloated and grown fat with endless brooding on her feasts, weaving webs of shadow; for all living things were her food, and her vomit darkness.'

[angelfromanotherpin]

My point that all the evidence points to her not being that impressive. She may have a great pedigree or reputation, but at the end of the day she didn't display any power greater than that possessed by a large dog in terrain favorable to it.

Oh, piss off. At the end of the day, the Nemean Lion is Herakles' throw-rug, and the Lernaean Hydra doesn't even manage to take out Iolaus, but both of those are immortal deeds of valor.

Shelob immobilizes Frodo and Sam with what's called a 'holding spell.' Her hide 'could not be pierced by any strength of men, not though Elf or Dwarf should forge the steel or the hand of Beren of Turin wield it.' Indeed, it's only 'her own strength greater than any warrior's hand,' that manages to drive Sting into her.

Anyway, I'm done on this subject. The willful ignorance on display here is too depressing.

[K]

Who says she's an ageless magical spirit?

That would be the omnicient-third-person narrator.

....who uses two paragraphs to say that she's old. Old does not equal ageless, powerful, or being a spirit.