Let's get rid of monster fetishism. All of it.

[Prak]

Who says she's an ageless magical spirit?

That would be the omnicient-third-person narrator.

....who uses two paragraphs to say that she's old. Old does not equal ageless, powerful, or being a spirit.

maybe not, but...

'There agelong she had dwelt, an evil thing in spider-form, even such as once of old had lived in the Land of the Elves in the West that is now under the Sea, such a Beren fought in the Mountains of Terror in Doriath...'
Lets see...

• Agelong, as in, as long as an age, age being roughly akin to the time frame during which a type of entity rules the earth, ie, the age of dinosaurs, or the age of man
• An evil thing in Spider Form, so yeah, basically a malevolent spirit that looks like a spider
• Even such as...., Basically, "this kind of thing had dwelt in the Land of the Elves, and the Mountain of Terror"

'But still she was there, who was there before Sauron, and before the first stone of Barad-dûr; and she served none but herself, drinking the blood of Elves and Men, bloated and grown fat with endless brooding on her feasts, weaving webs of shadow; for all living things were her food, and her vomit darkness.'

• Was there before Sauron, Sauron was, IIRC, one of the angel-like wizard beings, or possibly a rank above or below them, that had been on middle earth since time immemorial, so yeah, fucking ancient, It's like saying that giant fucking spider about to eat you has been here since before the various prophets.
• And she served none but herself, so no one calling the shots above her, she's her own master, in the world of middle earth, that alone means you're fairly powerful
• All living things were her food, basically, she's above every other living thing, which includes Gandalf, the Balrog, etc.

I'd say she's essentially an ageless and magical spirit.

[K]

...or that's just a lot of metaphor that means that she's just a giant spider who happens to be old and not even useful enough to be enslaved or bribed by the dark or light powers.

I mean, did she:

-kill any heroes or monsters?

-raise any armies?

-perform any acts of power......at all?

Seriously. She's a big fucking spider with a good story, and she got ganked by two guys who can barely kill an orc.

[zeruslord]

In LotR, being big actually does equal being powerful, with exceptions for the Maiar. The Numenoreans, who were essentially just dudes, but longer lived and more hardcore, were also taller. One of the distinguishing features of Aragorn's line and the Steward's line was being six inches to a foot taller than everybody else. Even if Shelob is just a spider, she's big enough to eat men, and in Lord of the Rings, that really matters.

[K]

In LotR, being big actually does equal being powerful, with exceptions for the Maiar. The Numenoreans, who were essentially just dudes, but longer lived and more hardcore, were also taller. One of the distinguishing features of Aragorn's line and the Steward's line was being six inches to a foot taller than everybody else. Even if Shelob is just a spider, she's big enough to eat men, and in Lord of the Rings, that really matters.

Ok, I'll upgrade her from large dog to small bear.

Heck, I'm feeling generous. I'll give her large bear.

[Maxus]

In LotR, being big actually does equal being powerful, with exceptions for the Maiar. The Numenoreans, who were essentially just dudes, but longer lived and more hardcore, were also taller. One of the distinguishing features of Aragorn's line and the Steward's line was being six inches to a foot taller than everybody else. Even if Shelob is just a spider, she's big enough to eat men, and in Lord of the Rings, that really matters.

Ok, I'll upgrade her from large dog to small bear.

Heck, I'm feeling generous. I'll give her large bear.

With killer natural armor.

Seriously, the only hit she took was when she raised up, moved over Sam, and tried to smash him with her underside.

Except Sam braced himself and held Sting up and she spiked herself.

[Absentminded_Wizard]

It also says she "drinks the blood of Elves and men." Since Tolkien is the origin of all elf fanboyism, any creature that can routinely feed on his favored almighty race must be powerful in Middle Earth.

[K]

In LotR, being big actually does equal being powerful, with exceptions for the Maiar. The Numenoreans, who were essentially just dudes, but longer lived and more hardcore, were also taller. One of the distinguishing features of Aragorn's line and the Steward's line was being six inches to a foot taller than everybody else. Even if Shelob is just a spider, she's big enough to eat men, and in Lord of the Rings, that really matters.

Ok, I'll upgrade her from large dog to small bear.

Heck, I'm feeling generous. I'll give her large bear.

With killer natural armor.

Seriously, the only hit she took was when she raised up, moved over Sam, and tried to smash him with her underside.

Except Sam braced himself and held Sting up and she spiked herself.

Considering that we know that Sam is weak, we don't know if all that is just a function of his weakness or her armor. Probably, it just means Sam is weak.

Heck, do you know why people never hunted bears with melee weapons?

----------

As for elves, the individual power of an elf is not that great (though they have their heroes). That's why they couldn't beat anyone in any of the books without the help of dwarves and humans.

Seriously, if she had beaten one hero I'd give her her dues. But as far as I can tell, it's just like saying that cats are powerful when you are shrunk to mouse-size. Sure, the fight was hard for you, but it was a laugh for anyone else.

[name_here]

note: that bit with her only taking a hit when she fell on sam? that's the only noticeable damage, except to her eyes, she takes EVER according to the book. it even says she is essentially immune to being stabbed by men,
and Same only seriously wounded her because she sat down on him.

Then she ran off into the darkness to sulk for a few years. no, i am not making that up.

[Voss]

I think it's pretty obvious that Voss is going by the theatrical versions of the movies (not the extended versions where Merry and Pippin take out a bunch of orcs by throwing rocks) rather than the books.

I am not, at all. I'm simply arguing against a certain kind of fetishism. Tolkien fanboy fanwanker fetishism annoys me even more than dragon-wanking fetishism, and I'd like to see it go. Given the subject of the thread, it seems a valid topic for discussion.

Look, the books aren't bad for their time, but the author is more concerned with exploring linguistic variations and dropping moral anvils on the reader than he creating a convincing reason why the little shits 'win'. Author fiat wins over logic, verisimilitude or even a convincing reason why I should give a flying fuck about midgets. I don't really feel the need to masturbate over how wonderful the British commons are, so hobbits don't do anything for me.

And the Shelob discussion helps make my point rather than it makes the hobbits special- the bitch impaled *herself*, and other than having a bit of backbone and not bolting, Sam didn't do much beyond a lucky slash to the eyes. Seriously, you're talking about a race that produces a handful of characters of passable note, and most of their 'impressive' deeds involves not running away.

Reclaiming the Shire, by the way, just involves having more bows than there are bandits. It isn't heroism- its riling up the farmers and getting them together in a bigger gang with more weapons.

[Absentminded_Wizard]

Look, the books aren't bad for their time, but the author is more concerned with exploring linguistic variations and dropping moral anvils on the reader than he creating a convincing reason why the little shits 'win'.

Well, there is the fact that their ancestors were warriors who routinely defeated armies of orcs (as mentioned in The Hobbit and the ancillary material in LotR).

I'm simply arguing against a certain kind of fetishism. Tolkien fanboy fanwanker fetishism annoys me even more than dragon-wanking fetishism, and I'd like to see it go. Given the subject of the thread, it seems a valid topic for discussion.

If you're talking about the idea that everything in D&D should look like Tolkien, I agree. I get sick of the Tolkien = D&D meme that used to pop up in discussions on the WotC boards years ago. Tolkien clearly was only one influence on D&D, mostly on races, some monsters, and a few magic items. These people always ignore that most D&D wizards throw around more different kinds of magic than Gandalf ever did, that there were no gnomes in Middle Earth, etc.

If it's about halflings in D&D, I don't see what your beef is, since they've become less and less like Tolkien halflings since 3.0. I mean, kender fetishism is a whole different sickness.

[virgil]

If Shelob is as tough as a large bear with good DR/magic, that makes her one of the toughest single things in that setting. Keep in mind that this is the setting where you have to stretch to make Gandalf 10th level, and bad-arse Aragorn is 5th level.

[Cynic]

Same with 'impressing the rulers' its a fucking court jester role that amuses leaders who have far too much shit on their plates and are making a funny at the expense of the short folk. They didn't impress them, they amused them.

We aren't talking about amusing a king here. That's why I didn't include their befriending of the ents because that kinda falls into that category (sorta).

Tolkien pretty much lifted this straight out of Beowulf.

Well not straight out. He took the connotations from beowulf. By granting power to an alien in their land, the ruler gives nobility, power, and acknowledgment to the person.

Wealthow does the same to Beowulf when she hands the chalice to him after drinking from the cup.

In LOTR, it's demi-nobility because they are both made squires (again ages since I read the books so they may not be actual squires) and are made to be actual direct attendants of the Kings themselves, they are given immediate access to royalty. THus the demi-royalty.

If you notice, aside from the hobbits, pretty much all the god damn heroes are nobility. Even the Protag hobbits are for the most part well-to-do with the exception of Samwise.

By the touch of the Kings, Merry and pippin are validated again and raised in power once more and their hero-status is elevated. They technically gain puzzle XP I suppose at this point and level.