2E grognards and mirrors

[The 13 Wise Buttlords]

4e Multiclassing really isn't that bad; and a few simple house rules make it a lot more palatable

What the fuck?

Seriously, a multiclassing system where you won't even see your first daily ability until the game is one-third of the way over and after you blow two feats on it?

We had a name for this dubious option back in 3rd and 2nd edition: it's called USE MAGIC DEVICE.

But then, you couldn't haphazardly combine any two classes in 3E either. And honestly, there weren't particularly good gishes in 3.5 core either.

That's because you didn't. If you weren't a sword-based classed then you indeed did not haphazardly multiclass. You took a goddamn prestige class.

And the reason why there weren't any good gishes was because 1) wizards already could outperform fighters with their swords without even multiclassing and 2) wizards' nuke-em spells were better anyway,

Initiate of the Faith: Control Wizards, Rangers, and Pole Fighters meet the requirement naturally. Toughness gives 5 hp per tier, healing word 1/day gives 3.5. Toughness increases the amount healed by surges, while healing word increases the ease of surging. A decent filler feat.

Warrior of the Wild: This is it, this one is made of win. As printed, Hunter's Quarry 1/encounter makes those hydra grinds *way* more tolerable. The errataed, 1 round version sucks. That's okay though, because this feat allows you to learn *perception*. Almost anyone can take this feat, and should strongly consider it.

Student of the Sword: Endurance could be a good skill to have, but I'm having trouble finding builds that both need strength and can use the mark effectively. FAIL

Hahahahahahaha! That's so funny.

Oh, wait, you're serious. Let me laugh even harder. Hahahahahaha!

If you really really want me to, I can demolish these 'good' options. They're massively underwhelming feats even for 4th Ed.

Seriously, your argument for using most of them is 'they're like Skill Focus, but once per round per day you get a bullshit benefit!'. I don't even know what to fucking say to that.

[The 13 Wise Buttlords]

The DM has total control of the plot and how it is allowed to unravel, and so DnD goes from being a "cooperative roleplaying game" and becomes a "minis game." Player input has been reduced to just damage rolls and status effects because it's not even assumed that a PC can get a free beer at the tavern without DM fiat backing him up.

Right, that's good! Even better than my lame Bleach metaphor.

[virgil]

But, but, 3e doesn't assume you can get a free beer without DM fiat either, the charm/diplomacy series is nice and vague, since some DMs use 'friendly' to mean 'will not prolong the death'. Although there's still domination, suggestion, geas/quest,...crap.

Proving imaginary, stupid arguments wrong is fun! So much easier than trying to prove actual stupid arguments with people in RL (damn DM not listening to reason/anything but designer 'gospel').

[Psychic Robot]

If you want to be a Biblical prophet more awesome than Daniel or Paul then you're shit out of luck. There's not a single plague that you can do in this game, which is just goddamn sad.

I lawled.

And I think that you fellows have single-handedly managed to give me the words to describe the bad taste left in my mouth by 4e:

You can't do anything.

3e was broken. Very broken. But you had spells like polymorph and move earth and stone and fabricate and passwall and planar binding and all sorts of other crazy shit that made casters awesome and relegating melees to crapitude. In 4e, very little is broken (in the sense that it destroys game balance). But you can't do anything really fucking cool, either.

It's daily-encounter-at will-at will-minor bonus-at will-minor penalty-at will-at will until the DM decides the fight is over because everyone looks bored.

[Cynic]

4E literally has no opportunity to be broken in any meaningful way because no powers actually effect the gameworld at all.


IMO, that's the reason there are "so many stories" that can't be told in 4.E. 4.E is about killing mobs, and that's it. That leaves a lot of stories untold by the rules.

NO, NO.

It's broke for the very reason why you think it's not broken. Well the word wouldn't be broken. It's not that the sole of the shoe flaps but the shoe doesn't have a sole in the first place, along with a tongue, or missing half the eyelets in key places for the shoelace to pass through.

That's pretty broken as well.

[Talisman]

I think the 3.x/4e dichotomy is thus:

3.x was broken in the hands of competent rulesmeisters...BUT

it's far easier to go through the game and outlaw eseriously whack shit like planar binding and polymorph than it is to go trhough 4e and put in cool stuff.

It's easier to destroy than to create. Similarly, it's easier to outlaw parts of the game you don't like, than to create new parts of the game that you do like.

[Absentminded_Wizard]

You know, reading this thread gives me a nice idea to sum up the difference between 3e and 4e. 3e's slogan was "Back to the dungeon!" 4e's unofficial slogan is "Back to the dungeon, and will the guard lock the door behind us...from the outside!" 3e assumed the dungeon crawl was the default scenario but gave a little bit of advice on how to run other kinds of scenarios if you wanted to. 4e assumes the dungeon crawl is the default scenario and dares you to even try running anything else.

[Orion]

Dude, how is a +5 to perception not worth a feat? That would practically be worth a feat in some 3.5 games, and definitely in 4e. I recognize that longer fights make surprise less important, *but* if you're a fighter or wizard especially you want to go first becaue your schtick is proactively controlling the batlefield and enemy positioning.

Furthermore, many multiclass combos have all the tools to work, if you just ease up on senseless restrictions. A Dwarf Fighter/Fiendlock would be pretty slick if you could get a Pact Blade Battleaxe.

Actually, needing to own two weapons/implements is less crippling than you might think anyway. magic gloves, hats, etc. have abilities which are roughly as powerful as the special features of same-level weapons and armor, so it's entirely possible that the cool trick your Rod of Whatever does is as good as the trick your Hat of something would have done. DMG guidelines give you four magic items, which for many characters will be weapon/weapon/armor/amulet.

Write some Quarterstaff powers for fighters and we can have an EK that's not an elf fanboy.

[The 13 Wise Buttlords]

But, but, 3e doesn't assume you can get a free beer without DM fiat either, the charm/diplomacy series is nice and vague, since some DMs use 'friendly' to mean 'will not prolong the death'. Although there's still domination, suggestion, geas/quest,...crap.

Proving imaginary, stupid arguments wrong is fun! So much easier than trying to prove actual stupid arguments with people in RL (damn DM not listening to reason/anything but designer 'gospel').

If that offends you so much, then why don't you advance some arguments?

We use these kinds of strawmen for dramatic emphasis and comedic sociopathy, but I could seriously go into detail about how much this game failed to do what was advertised.

[virgil]

I'm not offended, that was just my sarcasm, coupled with a bit of grumbling about the local roleplaying population.

[The 13 Wise Buttlords]

Dude, how is a +5 to perception not worth a feat? That would practically be worth a feat in some 3.5 games, and definitely in 4e.

Stop it, you're killing me.

[Ice9]

Compared to how lacklustre most of the 4E feats are, the initial multiclassing feats aren't bad. +5 Perception may not be that exciting, but it's better than +2 to one attack roll an encounter, or +1 damage with some of your spells.

And yeah, lack of ability to affect the world with any of your abilities is one of my bigger complaints about 4E. How sad is this state of affairs? So sad that, when I noticed the Phantasmal Terrain power, and that it could permanently make a 25' square of terrain somewhat more hazardous, I -
1) Considered taking it, because making a 25' square area per day slightly more hazardous is seriously the best it gets in 4E. And ...
2) Knew that it would probably be errata'd, because someone being able to do anything permanent is apparently forbidden in 4E.

[Amra]

K, I'm in awe at how well you put the fundamental problem with the new system right there. Props are totally deserved for that post and I'll probably be quoting it wholesale during my next group wrangle over why I'd rather sit around and stick forks in my legs than play 4th Edition.

[mlangsdorf]

Or it could be like Pokemon Mystery Dungeon, where if you're in a town they're immune to combat (as towns are non-combat zones), but if you find a shopkeeper in a dungeon then you can theoretically steal from or attack them (as dungeons are combat zones) but they will kick your ass.

Any merchant in the wilderness who has anything worth stealing also has access to the Leomund's Secret Chest ritual. So your opportunity to steal stuff from him lasts for about 3 rounds and you only get 1 thing at a time, as the rest of his stuff is sitting in his vault, tended by servants who wait for the Leomund's Secret Chest.

[Edited: replaced Magic Chest with Leomund's Secret Chest]

[Amra]

Are you talking about Leomund's Secret Chest - one of the few creatively abuseable features in the game - or a hypothetical Magic Chest ritual?

[Voss]

Funny, side note on the notion of core. Go to a store and flip one of the books over (I know this is on the MM, didn't both to check the others), and you'll find this lovely gem:

For use with these 4th Edition Dungeons & Dragons core products:
Player's Handbook
Dungeon Master's Guide
D&D Miniatures
D&D Dungeon Tiles

So, not only are the fucking PH II, III, IV, etc going to be yearly core material, but so are the minis and their related products. (Which by the way, suck ass, and the 4e sides of the cards don't reflect the MM version of the same monster, which is straight-out fucked up. Numbers are actually different).

But anyway, on the mirrors subject. I don't see it as much.
1e-> 2e brought a lot of complaining, even without the internets. But honestly there wasn't much change. Lost the 'scary things' [half-orcs, assassins, barbarians, devils, demons] out of the main books, spell damage got capped and the skill systems from the Dungeoneers and Wilderness Survival Guides got tweaked and shoved in the main books. Whee. This calmed a lot of people down (except die hard fans of whatever race/class) because it was essentially a non-change.

2e-> 3e had the advantage of TSR blowing themselves the fuck up, financially. It was either 3e or no more D&D. Sure lots of people weren't happy, but personally, I think the system was ultimately better in a lot of ways (even if I don't really like it at this point, because they let problems accumulate and added more, rather than solving problems that existed from the beginning). You'd have a hard time defending THAC0 and 5 arbitrarily grouped saving throws vs the 3e systems- it just makes more sense. There were flaws of course, but I think there was more gained than lost. Warrior types at least had the potential to break out of being the default butt-monkey, even if it was never fully realized.

4e... um. A lot went away. Some things may come back after $500 worth of 'core' books, but the system sucks, so fuck you. Illusionists are impossible, rogues explicitly are swashbucklers (explicitly light bladesmen) who are required to know how to pick locks and traps, the math blows up all over the place and no one can do anything vaguely interesting in the interest of balance that they didn't manage anyway. Monsters are fucked, and uninteresting, fluff wise. Just combat-only stat blocks with wacky encounter groups that make no sense.

They took some classic fantasy concepts and are trying to make them trendy again (Faerie and Shadow, yeah, not seen those before) which is good, but they're also making them incredibly lame and stupid at the same time. Faeries as BEMs? All Fomorians are Balor? Lame.

Hopefully, 4e will die a quick death, and Hasbro will sell the property to someone with a modicum of talent (and editors).

[Tydanosaurus]

Dude, how is a +5 to perception not worth a feat?

Dude, how do Perception and Steath even work? If you set the entire Vatican theological seminary on analyzing those rules, it'd take 10,000 years and and at least four inquisitions before anybody got to some sort of resolution.

AFAICT, the only thing that's better about hiding in 4E is that Rogues can sneak attack while in darkened areas. Otherwise, WTF?

[MartinHarper]

Alter the environment significantly, even for a few minutes

DMG object rules.
Some of the rituals alter the environment significantly. Eg Magic Circle.
Some spells alter the environment until the end of the encounter, so a few minutes. Eg Greater Ice Storm.

Change into another form for any period of time

Dopplegangers have rules as playable characters in the Monster Manual.
Angelic Avengers can turn into Angels briefly.

Throw up persistent illusions

Hallucinatory Creature/Item? Magic Mouth? Secret Page?

Move or manipulate objects more complex than opening a goddamn lock

Eh?

A 15th level rogue, after spending 4 feats in trying to multiclass wizard, can end up with fireball, blur, and flame sphere. That they can use once. A goddamn day.

I get Blur. It's a level 10 daily utility, and a sensible thing to swap in.

I'm not clear about Fireball. It's a level 5 daily. It seems like the rogue would be better off swapping in Prismatic Beams, a level 15 daily.

Flaming Sphere is a level 1 daily, and the rogue already used his daily power swap feat to get Prismatic Beams. So he should forget that and use his encounter power swap feat, and get, say, Mesmeric Hold, a level 13 encounter power. He can use this power once an encounter, not once a day.

He can also use Thunderwave once an encounter, and gets training in the Arcana skill.

Also, since he's level 15, he can use his paragon path to gain another 7th level wizard encounter power and another 10th level wizard utility power. Or he can go take the Battle Mage, Blood Mage, Spellstorm Mage, or Wizard of the Spiral Tower paragon paths.

Some or all of those options will suck. They're all better than a Rogue 7/Wizard 8, but that's hardly glowing praise.

[The 13 Wise Buttlords]

DMG object rules.
Some of the rituals alter the environment significantly. Eg Magic Circle.
Some spells alter the environment until the end of the encounter, so a few minutes. Eg Greater Ice Storm.

That is complete bullshit and you know it.

The greatest environmental-altering ability in 4E is... MINING WITH YOUR SWORDS!!

Dopplegangers have rules as playable characters in the Monster Manual.
Angelic Avengers can turn into Angels briefly.

Again, that is also unadulterated horseshit.

Given how integral body transformation is to high fantasy (not just D&D), you would fucking think that the best dumpster-diving you do in the core rules would net you something better than a goddamn doppleganger, who can only turn into medium-sized humanoids.

Hallucinatory Creature/Item? Magic Mouth? Secret Page?

You're fucking kidding me, right?

Hallucinatory Creature and Item are not real illusions. Well, it is, but they're a shitload of fuck. They take ten minutes to cast, are nearly non-interactive once you set them, and are automatically disproved as real when you touch them. You can't use this shit in combat! Fuck, that should be enough reason to say that 4th dropped the ball here. These little shit spells are markedly inferior to a combination of a 0th and 1st level spell in 3rd.

The other examples are such desperate, grabass examples that I'm not even going to bother. Secret Page as an example of the game supporting this integral concept? Are you fucking kidding me?

Eh?

Where the fuck's fabricate and polymorph any object and animate objects and telekinesis? Where are the spells that let you summon your personal demiplane out of nothing? Shit, the best conjuration/transmutation thing you get is Mordenkainen's Mansion.

High level wizards in this game can't perform a feat as simple as carving a stone chair from rock that's already there. And that's a goddamn shame.

Also, since he's level 15, he can use his paragon path to gain another 7th level wizard encounter power and another 10th level wizard utility power. Or he can go take the Battle Mage, Blood Mage, Spellstorm Mage, or Wizard of the Spiral Tower paragon paths.

Some or all of those options will suck. They're all better than a Rogue 7/Wizard 8, but that's hardly glowing praise.

Your example missed the fricking point by a fucking light year.

The point was that rogues (or anyone wanting to multiclass) burns through all of that bullshit and get nothing for their time and patience other than a few token abilities.

Here's the real kick in the nuts: once you blow your wad on those four feats, that's it. You can never advance your character further in this different direction ever fucking again. Sure, you can take one of those shaggy dog paragon paths, but they're inane as hell and end up giving out blank levels at a rate that would make 3.0E PrCs proud.

So, that Rogue 7/Wizard 8 in 3E, yeah, he sucked donkey dick and we all know it. But here's the thing: in 3E, it was at least an option. And guess what? People realized how lame it was and expanded on that option. First they handed out the assassin and it eventually culminated in the arcane trickster. Again, not as good as a rogue or a wizard using Leadership to do the other, but you at least felt like a fucking arcane trickster.

The fact that a 3E single-classed rogue who just uses UMD makes a better arcane trickster than a 4E Rogue/Wizard multiclass in this game is just fucking pathetic. There's no excuse for that shit, multiclassing was a huge selling point of 2nd and 3rd and spat in the faces of long-time fans like myself.

[MartinHarper]

Here's the real kick in the nuts: once you blow your wad on those four feats, that's it.

When the 15th level rogue/wizard reaches 16th level, he switches Blur for Greater Invisibility, a 16th level . Thus advancing his wizardly powers. And he gains, say, Close Quarters as his rogue 10 utility power. That's character advancement as both a wizard and a rogue.

That Rogue 7/Wizard 8 in 3E, yeah, he sucked donkey dick and we all know it. But here's the thing: in 3E, it was at least an option.

This rogue's most powerful encounter power is a wizard power, his most powerful utility power is a wizard power, and his most powerful daily power is a wizard power. If that's not wizardly enough, grab the Eternal Seeker epic destiny, and by 30th level every single power you have can be a wizard power.
So it's an option in both games.

[Tydanosaurus]

Here's the real kick in the nuts: once you blow your wad on those four feats, that's it.

When the 15th level rogue/wizard reaches 16th level, he switches Blur for Greater Invisibility, a 16th level. . .

Greater Invisibility? Really? Wowzers, now you can not attack for EVEN LONGER! And cast your spell to let a friend not attack from EVEN FARTHER AWAY!

You'd be better off just using Stealth and hoping your DM gives you a break on cover or concealment. And the DM will, rather than spend hours arguing about it.

[mlangsdorf]

Are you talking about Leomund's Secret Chest - one of the few creatively abuseable features in the game - or a hypothetical Magic Chest ritual?

Sorry, Leomund's Secret Chest. Couldn't be arsed to remember the name of the ritual or look it up. Bad me.

[MartinHarper]

Greater Invisibility? Really? Wowzers, now you can not attack for EVEN LONGER!

Yes, 4e Greater Invisibility at level 16 is slightly weaker than 3e Invisibility at level 3. It's still character advancement, and it's no worse than a single-classed wizard or rogue would get.

I wonder whether 4th edition will follow MMOs in having expansions that increase the "level cap".

[Kaelik]

Well first they'd need to actually add something at level 20-30.

[Tydanosaurus]

Greater Invisibility? Really? Wowzers, now you can not attack for EVEN LONGER!

Yes, 4e Greater Invisibility at level 16 is slightly weaker than 3e Invisibility at level 3. It's still character advancement, and it's no worse than a single-classed wizard or rogue would get.

I wonder whether 4th edition will follow MMOs in having expansions that increase the "level cap".

You miss the point. Because of the duration system, 4E Greater Invisibility isn't noticeably better than 4E Invisibility. Unlike 3E, where Greater Invisibility romps all over Invisibility and doesn't even give a reacharound.