Why do they hold back the cool toys until level 25-30?

Voss · Post by **Voss** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 2:01 am

4e doesn't give you new actions either. You replace powers with other powers with bigger numbers. Thats all. And then, gasp, you spam the same attack sequence over and over again. By your own argument, 4e should be boring as fuck. Its seriously hardcoded into the rule set that you can't have more options that you can count on your fingers and toes. Our 18 year old demigod has roughly that many powers, and can't do anything even vaguely interesting- he can do a moderate amount of damage in combat, and if he's really lucky, he's got a couple ways to stun people in combat.

I'll give you the idea that 4e is easier to balance [in a bad way, IMO, but whatever], but how is it more interesting? That shock trooper fighter you've been railing against has only used half his feats at the level he gets it. He still has a pile of other shit he can do, which makes you're one-dimensional argument laughable.

RandomCasualty2 · Post by **RandomCasualty2** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 2:13 am

Voss wrote:4e doesn't give you new actions either. You replace powers with other powers with bigger numbers. Thats all. And then, gasp, you spam the same attack sequence over and over again. By your own argument, 4e should be boring as fuck. Its seriously hardcoded into the rule set that you can't have more options that you can count on your fingers and toes. Our 18 year old demigod has roughly that many powers, and can't do anything even vaguely interesting- he can do a moderate amount of damage in combat, and if he's really lucky, he's got a couple ways to stun people in combat.

It's not like 4E is that much better, but it still gives you the feeling that you're making decisions. some attacks are better but limited use, other attacks are more useable but less useful. While 4E is nerfed all around, there's some variety and some ability to choose different abilities based on the situation. And as a tactical player, I like decisions.

In 3E I just don't get that feeling. I feel like I've got my actions for my fighter pretty much planned out to something similar to the Final Fantasy 12 gambit system. If flying enemy, attack with bow. If ground enemy, UBERCHARGE!

I just don't feel tactical at all in 3E.

The frenzied berserker PrC pretty much sums up the 3E fighter. Charge mindlessly and deal big damage.

I'll give you the idea that 4e is easier to balance [in a bad way, IMO, but whatever], but how is it more interesting? That shock trooper fighter you've been railing against has only used half his feats at the level he gets it. He still has a pile of other shit he can do, which makes you're one-dimensional argument laughable.

not really, because his other feats are going to be spent on support for his main schtick. You will suck if you branch out at all. Likely the guy is going to take stuff like karmic strike and robilar's gambit and other support feats. That again, do very little except increase his damage output.

Talisman · Post by **Talisman** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 3:10 am

RandomCasualty2 wrote:t's not like 4E is that much better, but it still gives you the feeling that you're making decisions. some attacks are better but limited use, other attacks are more useable but less useful. While 4E is nerfed all around, there's some variety and some ability to choose different abilities based on the situation. And as a tactical player, I like decisions.

So...it sounds like you like 4e, not because it actually gives you more options, but because it gives the illusion of more options. Is this right?

I'm going to have to side with Voss and Frank and the others on this one, RC...a 3.x fighter *has* more options than a 4e fighter. For one thing, a 3.x fighter always has the option to bull rush, disarm, sunder or grapple...he may not be great at it, but he doesn't need to blow a feat/power to be able to make the attempt. And, as has been repeatedly mentioned, a 3.x fighter can repeat his schtick as often as he wants. Miss with a 4e encounter/daily power? Oops; you're screwed. Miss with a 3.x fighter power? All you've lost is an action. After ~4 rounds of serious combat, a 4e fighter is likely to have blown through all of his encounters and dailies; the 3.x fighter can still do everything he usually does. Whatever his (many) weaknesses, this was always one of the 3.x fighter's strengths: he never runs out of "spells."

Voss · Post by **Voss** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 3:32 am

Seriously, RC, back this up.
Put some hard data from 4e out there and stop talking about your feelings. Put something crunchy on the table that we can crack open and objectively say 'This is actually better'.

not really, because his other feats are going to be spent on support for his main schtick. You will suck if you branch out at all. Likely the guy is going to take stuff like karmic strike and robilar's gambit and other support feats. That again, do very little except increase his damage output.

Again, I want to see some hard evidence of this. Anything. I want you to prove that a 3rd edition fighter who takes combat expertise and disarm alongside shocktrooper is going to suck. A 3e fighter may need to blow feats, but he's got feats to blow. No matter how specialized the build, you're going to have levels where you literally can't spend feats on something that furthers that build. So you spend them on other useful things (and those aren't weapon focus).

For 4e, I also want you to prove that upgrading that level 1 encounter power to a level 13 encounter power is about anything other than bigger numbers. For fuck sake, lets take:

Steel Serpent Strike [1] and Talon of the Roc [13]
2[w] + str & target is slowed and cannot shift until the end of your next turn.
vs
3[w]+str & target is slowed until the end of your next turn, plus if wielding a pick or spear, target cannot shift until the end of your next turn.

Wow, its exactly the same power, except it deals slightly more damage (+4.5 or 5.5 depending on what weapon you are using), plus its actually more limiting [can only be used with specific weapons]. Twelve levels later you're getting a minor increase in damage that doesn't even vaguely compare to the ~400% increase in monster hit points. [Comparing a level 1 brute to a level 13 brute] That isn't an option, thats an insult. Thats really the developer spitting in your eye and calling you a moron.

And I'll echo talisman: after 4 rounds of combat, where have all your options gone?

Talisman · Post by **Talisman** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 4:31 am

Hell, try this:

Pick a level and tell me what powers you would give a 4e fighter of that level. Feats don't count because 4e feats suck.

I'll offer feats and options for a 3.x fighter of equivalent levels (roughly 2/3 4e levels, due to the 20/30 level dichotomy). I guarantee the 3.x fighter will have more options and more staying power, as well as the ability to combine those options

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 4:40 am

When was it decided that Karmic Strike and Robilar's Gambit are part of the Shocktrooper build and not "other things" or tactical options? Even if the player "activates" them every turn, limiting the "tactical" part, it's still another aspect to the character's abilities, even if it is another way of dealing damage and knocking people over.

Because I know you're not saying that dealing damage, no matter how, is all one ability. Otherwise you'd be saying that every single non-utility power in 4E is the same ability.

Ice9 · Post by **Ice9** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 5:50 am

When did the goal of D&D become "to play a Fighter" anyway? I've seen the argument - several times - that 4E is better because it makes playing a Fighter more interesting. Even if this were true - how the hell would this make 4E a better game?

If one or two of the classes are somewhat more interesting, and the rest are much less interesting - that's a step backward, not forward! And this is even ignoring the fact that nobody was forcing you to play a single-classed Fighter in 3E. A game where only half the options are interesting is still better than a game where none of them are.

RandomCasualty2 · Post by **RandomCasualty2** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 3:49 pm

Voss wrote: Again, I want to see some hard evidence of this. Anything. I want you to prove that a 3rd edition fighter who takes combat expertise and disarm alongside shocktrooper is going to suck. A 3e fighter may need to blow feats, but he's got feats to blow. No matter how specialized the build, you're going to have levels where you literally can't spend feats on something that furthers that build. So you spend them on other useful things (and those aren't weapon focus).

Well honestly at higher levels you've probably got to blow some of your feats on stuff like iron will if you want to survive. You're probably also taking other bonus feats like improved initiative and such, because getting your shock trooper uber charge off fast is important. After that it's robilar's gambit, karmic strike and other stuff that really doesn't do much besides increase your damage output in an indirect way.

For 4e, I also want you to prove that upgrading that level 1 encounter power to a level 13 encounter power is about anything other than bigger numbers. For fuck sake, lets take:

It's probably not really. But in 3.5 you never really get away from just upgrading numbers.

And I'll echo talisman: after 4 rounds of combat, where have all your options gone?

Yeah, you run out a little too quickly, but it's actually more exciting than 3.5, because you are given incentive to use different powers, instead of just spamming the same one.

And since you've asked for it, I'm going to post a 9th level 4E power list.
At will:
Cleave
Tide of Iron

Daily:
Thicket of blades (Burst, slows targets, Reliable)
Dizzying blow (immobilizes, reliable)
Comeback strike (heals you, reliable)

Encounter:
Come and Get it (enemies within 3 squares must move toward you, and then you get to attack them)
Precise strike (+4 to hit)
Spinning sweep (knocks target prone)

Utility:
Defensive training (Stance to increase Defenses by +2 for one battle)
Boundless Endurance (you gain regeneration when you're bloodied)

So what can this guy do? He can immobilize, slow, knock prone, make accurate attacks, force enemies to move to him, push enemies back, gain regeneration, heal himself, slay two minions in one at will attack and make whirlwind attacks.

Now seriously, that's a lot of options.

virgil · Post by **virgil** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 4:27 pm

Making an accurate attack is not a combat option, any more than taking Weapon Focus. Pushing back and knocking prone is part of Shocktrooper, and knocking prone pretty much keeps them from moving for the round anyway. Cleave is an important feat for taking out mook types. Regeneration/healing can be had with a simple enough magic item (fairly certain there's an x/day lesser vigor item for the cheap).

And he can't even imagine the concept of disarming anyone, no matter how weak they are. And he can't attack defensively either. Nor can he sunder. Nor can he grapple. Unlike our 3E fighter who gets them as standard options, though without a feat he's only using it on mooks for the most part (which is still handy if he doesn't want to hurt someone).

The only things I'm seeing here that matter worth a damn are Come and Get It & Thicket of Blades. So...our little 4E fighter has two whole options that are above and beyond what a 3E fighter has, at the expense of doing everything but a normal attack 1/fight or 1/day.

Taking what a character can do, parsing it out so they can't multitask their actions, and then limiting it to a checklist (used attack A, onto attack B, then C...), is NOT a lot of options. It's an illusion of options, which I find to be quite condescending.

EDIT: As for the whole "insufficient numbers to bull rush or trip unless you use standard PHB purchases" argument is a piss poor one. That's a simple number problem (at worst), and you're seriously arguing throwing the baby out with the bath water.

Tydanosaurus · Post by **Tydanosaurus** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 4:49 pm

Ice9 wrote:When did the goal of D&D become "to play a Fighter" anyway? I've seen the argument - several times - that 4E is better because it makes playing a Fighter more interesting. Even if this were true - how the hell would this make 4E a better game?

Because Fighter is the only 4E class that is arguably "better", relatively speaking, compared to 3.5. One benefit of 4E is that you can play a Fighter and, by 10th level, not look at the Wizard and realize your party role is "Carry the loot."

If you look at Wizard, or Cleric, or even Rogue, you obviously had more and better options in 3.5.

Tydanosaurus · Post by **Tydanosaurus** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 4:50 pm

Psychic Robot wrote:
Tydanosaurus wrote:Intimidate?

Besides, 3.5 has multiclassing. Be a Rogue1/Ftrx. You're as good at any non-combat skill as you want to be.

In 4E, there's not much for a Fighter to do out of combat. B/c of ability problems you suck at all the interesting non-combat skills. And rituals blow - that's a quick way to fall off the RNG.
The fighter doesn't have the required skillpoints for that.

Yes, it does. Pick any skill. You can max it. You can't max all skills, but that's another story.

angelfromanotherpin · Post by **angelfromanotherpin** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 6:02 pm

Yeah, once the Fighter's 2/level skill points are being spent on Search and Disable Device, his ability to contribute out-of-combat steps way up.

MartinHarper · Post by **MartinHarper** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 6:23 pm

Voss wrote:Its seriously hardcoded into the rule set that you can't have more options that you can count on your fingers and toes.

The DMG does have rules on "actions the rules don't cover" and "improvising" which suggest that you allow players to do things that aren't in their list of powers. But lots of folks are indeed going to say "You don't have Sweeping Strike? Sorry, you can't trip".

MartinHarper · Post by **MartinHarper** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 6:53 pm

3e Cleave is not a combat option. You don't ever kill a monster and think "hmm - I wonder if I'll take the option of taking a free attack". You get out your dice and you take the free attack. A combat option means that the player gets to make a choice between using it, or not using it, in a combat. Now, 3e cleave is certainly an option in character creation, and it's completely inarguable that 3e has vastly more options in character creation than in 4e, some of which are even playable.

Also, I'm not sure why we are comparing a 4e fighter with no race, no feats, no skills, and no magic items, with a 3e fighter with all of those things.

mikal768 · Post by **mikal768** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 6:59 pm

MartinHarper wrote:3e Cleave is not a combat option. You don't ever kill a monster and think "hmm - I wonder if I'll take the option of taking a free attack". You get out your dice and you take the free attack. A combat option means that the player gets to make a choice between using it, or not using it, in a combat. Now, 3e cleave is certainly an option in character creation, and it's completely inarguable that 3e has vastly more options in character creation than in 4e, some of which are even playable.

Also, I'm not sure why we are comparing a 4e fighter with no race, no feats, no skills, and no magic items, with a 3e fighter with all of those things.

Because the entire thread has been trying to paint 4e in as bad a light as possible because it no longer supports rocket tagging?

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 7:11 pm

We've actually been leaving the 3e Fighter's racial abilities and level-feats out of the comparison as well, or at least I have. And we've been allowing the 4e Fighter to have his magic items, they just don't fucking matter. The only magic item's I've assumed for the 3.5 Fighter is a +1 Greatsword and a belt of Strength. The 4e Fighter gets ~5 magic items by 8th level and only 2 of them are "level appropriate." So he's walking in there with a +2 Armor, a +2 Sword, and a +1 Cloak if he is lucky. That's better than what the 3.5 Fighter got by a long shot, but it doesn't make him interesting. Heck, it doesn't even numerically keep him up with the opposition that he now faces!

Seriously, we've been incredibly kind to the 4e character for this comparison. We've deliberately and massively gimped the 3.5 character and he still comes out with more stuff to do by a substantial margin.

-Username17

Psychic Robot · Post by **Psychic Robot** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 7:15 pm

mikal768 wrote:Because the entire thread has been trying to paint 4e in as bad a light as possible because it no longer supports rocket tagging?

Oooh, a WizO. How exotic.

mikal768 · Post by **mikal768** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 7:35 pm

Psychic Robot wrote:
mikal768 wrote:Because the entire thread has been trying to paint 4e in as bad a light as possible because it no longer supports rocket tagging?
Oooh, a WizO. How exotic.

Former WizO, let go along with about 90% of the old crew thanks to the new vision of WotC. The idiotic one where they throw away anything marginally good about the old program for the monstros...majesty that is Gleemax.

Maxus · Post by **Maxus** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 7:47 pm

mikal768 wrote:
Psychic Robot wrote:
mikal768 wrote:Because the entire thread has been trying to paint 4e in as bad a light as possible because it no longer supports rocket tagging?
Oooh, a WizO. How exotic.
Former WizO, let go along with about 90% of the old crew thanks to the new vision of WotC. The idiotic one where they throw away anything marginally good about the old program for the monstros...majesty that is Gleemax.

I'm sorry, then. I know what it's like to put a lot of effort into something, only to have The Man decide you're not needed and, in fact, that he should do exactly what you'd hoped he wouldn't.

Psychic Robot · Post by **Psychic Robot** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 7:53 pm

mikal768 wrote:Former WizO, let go along with about 90% of the old crew thanks to the new vision of WotC. The idiotic one where they throw away anything marginally good about the old program for the monstros...majesty that is Gleemax.

Ouch. Well, probably not as bad as the clusterfuck that happened with WizO_Autumn.

And yes, Gleemax is made of AIDS and fail. Such an awful, awful system.

ubernoob · Post by **ubernoob** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 7:55 pm

Psychic Robot wrote:
mikal768 wrote:Former WizO, let go along with about 90% of the old crew thanks to the new vision of WotC. The idiotic one where they throw away anything marginally good about the old program for the monstros...majesty that is Gleemax.
Ouch. Well, probably not as bad as the clusterfuck that happened with WizO_Autumn.

And yes, Gleemax is made of AIDS and fail. Such an awful, awful system.

Clusterfuck? Where 500ish users ported over to a brand new forum because thier community got a gigantic slap in the face?[/b]

mikal768 · Post by **mikal768** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 8:01 pm

Psychic Robot wrote:
mikal768 wrote:Former WizO, let go along with about 90% of the old crew thanks to the new vision of WotC. The idiotic one where they throw away anything marginally good about the old program for the monstros...majesty that is Gleemax.
Ouch. Well, probably not as bad as the clusterfuck that happened with WizO_Autumn.

And yes, Gleemax is made of AIDS and fail. Such an awful, awful system.

Actually you might consider my firing to be the prototype for Autumns. Go back to around Feburary or so on the concerns and whatnot about Community management thread and you can see about 25% of it (as the rest was deleted after I threatened legal action).

Course, mine was more of a "I dare you to fire me after I claimed you had more class then to fire me for actually telling the posters to work within the system and go past Mike's head rather then sit there and take it up the ass" rather then the BS that happened to Autumn.

Pity they didn't have the class.

MartinHarper · Post by **MartinHarper** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 8:03 pm

FrankTrollman wrote:The 4e Fighter gets ~5 magic items by 8th level and only 2 of them are "level appropriate."

Well, that does potentially give him another five combat options, depending on which magic items he has. Unless he gets items that are always on, of course. If we care about options, then that matters more than the pluses. And mostly those are minor/free actions, so they're worth doing even if they're a few levels old.

I understand that you're trying to be even-handed, but :
* 4e races provide more options than 3e races.
* the 4e fighter is better at skills (including in combat) than the 3e fighter.
* 5 level-based feats for the 4e fighter are likely to provide more options than 3 level-based feats for the 3e fighter.

If you add those in, plus the actions that any 4e character can do, I think the average 4e fighter does substantially better than the optimised 3e fighter (and completely blows away a non-optimised fighter). For that matter, an 8th level sorcerer only knows 11 spells (disregarding cantrips), which is entirely comparable to our 4e human fighter.

Talisman · Post by **Talisman** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 8:04 pm

All right...against RC's 9th-level 4e fighter, here's a 9th-level 3.5 fighter. Race is generic. Skills will be ignored. I'm assuming a +1 halberd and a +4 strength belt as magic items. Stats are 28-PB: Str 18, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 13, Wis 10, Cha 8.

9th level gives us 5 bonus feats. I'm also counting the 4 standard feats, since a 3.x fighter is made of feats, whereas a 4e character's feats pretty much don't matter).

So! We've got the following:

~Power Attack (trade attack mod for damage, 1:2)
~Improved Bull Rush (shove people around whever you want them - unlike 4e, this provokes AoOs from your teammates.)
~Improved Overrun (bust through the lines and get to the boss)

~Combat Expertise (trade attack mod for AC)
~Improved Trip (knock people prone and whack them)
~Improved Disarm (take away peoples' shinies - whenever you want - with a fat +4 bonus for using a 2H weapon)

~Quick Draw (switch between melee and ranged pretty much at will. Also throw multiple javelins per round)

~Iron Will
~Lightning Reflexes (these increase your weakest "defenses" by +2 all the time).

So, our 3.5 fighter can do the following things: knock people prone (which is objectively better than immobilization or slow), trade accuracy for damage, trade accuracy for defense, disarm, push people around, shove past people, switch to ranged at the drop of a hat.

He can also do the following with less chance of success (but it's still an option): break peoples weapons [sunder], help his buddies [aid another], feint, grapple, fight with two weapons.

That's a total of 12 discrete combat options, and the 3.5 fighter can do this all day long. Sure, some options are worse choices than others, but that's true of 4e as well...and this isn't about raw power, it's about options.

RandomCasualty2 wrote:So what can this guy do? He can immobilize, slow, knock prone, make accurate attacks, force enemies to move to him, push enemies back, gain regeneration, heal himself, slay two minions in one at will attack and make whirlwind attacks.

Immobilize and slow are mechanically similar, and both are less effective than knocking someone prone. "Making accurate attacks" is not an option; it's a function of character build. Gaining regeneration and self-healing are the same thing. Slaying two minions at once can be accomplished with multiple attacks just as easily as with powers.

I count 5 functionally discrete options for the 4e fighter, only two of which (healing and making enemies approach him) can't be replicated by the naked 3.5 fighter (and healing can be duplicated with magic items). Note also that most of the 4e fighter's options are single-shot, at least until the next battle - and if you miss, you're screwed.

RC, if you prefer 4e, that's fine - play it and have fun. But you're not going to convince us that a 4e character has more options because that's demonstrably not true.

Psychic Robot · Post by **Psychic Robot** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 8:18 pm

I think what RC meant is that the fighter can trade damage for accuracy with some of his abilities.