4e is too complex.

[Draco_Argentum]

But you CAN make a good sword-chopping guy. Just don't make him a fighter. Or take a crazy PrC after multiclassing a lot. Be a cleric or a rogue if you want to swing a sword.

But that was one of 3.x's problems. Presenting options that suck really hard. Its bad design even when you can work around it.

[Crissa]

Of course, the Fighter was a better monk thank the Monk and a better... well, fighter, than the Bard.

Talent tress and increasing bonuses did not a good Fighter make. Of course, we figured that out and never did play with Fighters the original way - at least not if there were crazy-town mages in the game.

I won't say 3e is better than 4e. But 4e is missing stuff. Stuff that's in WoW. Like... languages. Food. You know, and flavor text.

-Crissa

[MartinHarper]

But 4e is missing stuff. Stuff that's in WoW. Like... languages. Food.

Languages and food? That's new. What's missing from the language and food rules in 4e?

[Psychic Robot]

Languages were merged (yay). Not sure about food.

[Voss]

No one is, which I think was the point. Food seems to occur in two places in the PH. One, in the list of adventuring gear, as 10 days of trail rations cost 5 gold. No notes, no explanations. In the extended rest section, 'an extended rest includes relaxation, sometimes a meal, and usually sleep'.

Sleep is required by the rules (min 6 hours in 24 to gain benefits of an extended rest), food seems to be completely optional handwaved fluff.

Ignoring hunger and thirst is mentioned under the endurance skill, but it sends you off to the DMG for rules. All you get are DCs (for some of it). I could look that up, but frankly I don't care enough.

[Psychic Robot]

Does 3e make any notes about food?

[ubernoob]

Does 3e make any notes about food?

Several types of rations, the survival skill. It's like a DC 20 survival check never to pay for rations.

[Psychic Robot]

Ah. Well, rations are just book-keeping, and THAT'S NO FUN. If the DM says you're starving, then you're starving.

...It seems that 4e's mechanics-lite game actually encourages railroading, in a way. The DM wants you to get past a chasm? It's a DC 10 Athletics check. The DM doesn't want you to get past a chasm? It's a DC 30 Athletics check.

[Kaelik]

...It seems that 4e's mechanics-lite game actually encourages railroading, in a way.

Seems like? I'd think everyone with half a brain has realized that's exactly what they intended and accomplished, and the only reason RC has such a hard on for 4e now.

[mikal768]

Ah. Well, rations are just book-keeping, and THAT'S NO FUN. If the DM says you're starving, then you're starving.

...It seems that 4e's mechanics-lite game actually encourages railroading, in a way. The DM wants you to get past a chasm? It's a DC 10 Athletics check. The DM doesn't want you to get past a chasm? It's a DC 30 Athletics check.

Or a teleporting ritual, or an encounter power that allows flight/teleportation, or (depending on how you read it) Tenser's Floating Disc.

Or magic items that let you fly.

So... yeah. Your example doesn't hold water.

[Psychic Robot]

Way to miss the point.

[RandomCasualty2]

Seems like? I'd think everyone with half a brain has realized that's exactly what they intended and accomplished, and the only reason RC has such a hard on for 4e now.

Actually I thought 3E really forced you to railroad because of the great difficulty inherent in creating encounters. One of the key components of not railroading is being able to improvise. In 3E, you flat out couldn't do that because it took you hours to make encounters at higher levels.

While 3E had a ton of abilities that allowed you to break the plot, it ended up being similar to a video game where you go outside the game world and you find out that there is quite literally nothing there to find. So really, 3E forced you to railroad simply because once the PCs fall off the area that you have prepared you can't DM on the fly.

4E I find is much easier to DM on the fly, given that you can stat out an NPC or monster in like 2-3 minutes. And the ability to let DMs wing it is the best way to allow more open ended gaming. Because I don't give a fuck how many interesting ways you have of breaking the plot. If you do that and just get a "Ok guys, I haven't prepared for this... you either have to get back on track or we end the session here." then it's basically a failure.

And that's how 3.5 tended to work. So all the bells and whistle powers you have to fuck with your DMs plans didn't even matter, because if you wanted to do that, the DM either:

-Forced you to run through those encounters anyway.
-Declared that you broke the plot and to come back next week when he has more.

[virgil]

It certainly never takes me hours to make an encounter at higher levels for 3E.

[Crissa]

RC, how is that different than 4e?

-Crissa

[Kaelik]

RC: Only if you had a really crappy unimaginative borderline retarded DM, like apparently you. Hours to make an encounter? You must be blind and doing it by brail.

RC, how is that different than 4e?

In 4e you never even have the option to go outside what the DM has prepared.

[CatharzGodfoot]

Writing up encounters does take a while if you use only classed opponents (which is how my game has been going). Maybe not hours for one encounter, but certainly longer than would be ideal.

That said, I'm not sure how you're supposed to generate classed NPCs in 4e. Do they follow the same rules as other 'monsters' for using items? The big annoyance probably comes back to those retarded level-appropriate bonus items, and have they have to come in carefully determined "parcels".

[Psychic Robot]

In 4e you never even have the option to go outside what the DM has prepared.

Justify this statement.

Do they follow the same rules as other 'monsters' for using items?

There's a special chart for them, I believe, and they have a higher magic threshold.

[Username17]

In 3E, you flat out couldn't do that because it took you hours to make encounters at higher levels.

That is factually incorrect. I've created literally a dozen 18th level encounters off the top of my head in a few minutes in the middle of an actual game. High level encounters in 3rd edition get to be such rocket launcher tag that they bgin and end really fast. You can, and therefore should, have encounters with lots of enemies running around doing crazy crap or lots of smallish encounters.

I have no idea what you were doing if it took you hours to design a 3rd edition encounter. That makes no sense to me.

-Username17

[The 13 Wise Buttlords]

I think RC is referring to filling out a spellcasting mook's list full of sweet spells.

I think there could be a use for a 'mook spellcaster' table in the back of a monster manual in which you cross-referenced theme against level--therefore you could save time in later levels by QuikReferencing(tm) 12th enchanter, 13th level necromancer, and a 11th level bard to address this problem.

I also think the same should go for a feat chain (if we still have them in later editions, which I don't support) and an equipment bundle.

[RandomCasualty2]

That is factually incorrect. I've created literally a dozen 18th level encounters off the top of my head in a few minutes in the middle of an actual game. High level encounters in 3rd edition get to be such rocket launcher tag that they bgin and end really fast. You can, and therefore should, have encounters with lots of enemies running around doing crazy crap or lots of smallish encounters.

I have no idea what you were doing if it took you hours to design a 3rd edition encounter. That makes no sense to me.

NPCs pretty much, or even make your own monsters like dragons.

If you just want to pull a monster out of the MM as is, that's actually pretty easy. All the work is done for you.

But if for instance, you want to stat out the head of the thieves guild, his guild wizard, and his bunch of leser thieves, that takes a while.

I mean lets look at just statting up the wizard.

-You need to assign ability scores.
-You need to assign levels, and roll for hit points. This probably means getting PrCs too.
-You need to choose what he has in his spellbook.
-You need to choose what spells he has prepared.
-You need to assign skill points.
-You need to assign feats.
-You need to buy his magic items.

That takes an immense amount of time. It's like making a PC wizard. Actually, it's the exact same process.

You can skip all that and just make up arbitrary numbers and give him arbitrary abilities, but then you're doing things the 4E way, where you just choose random shit and numbers that make sense and don't build the monster like a PC, but rather as a level appropriate obstacle.

So if your ad hoc NPCs don't really have spellbooks written out or feats or magic items, yet still have numbers that challenge the PCs, then yeah, you're doing things the 4E way. And as far as improvising, I like the 4E way.

[MartinHarper]

Food seems to be completely optional handwaved fluff.

The DMG rules explain the penalties for going without food (or water) - you eventually starve to death. You can forage with Dungeoneering (undergound) or Nature (overground). DC15 to get food and water for one person. DC25 to get food for five people. Adjust DCs for barren or fertile areas. One day of trail rations or journeybread lasts for one day.

The DM wants you to get past a chasm? It's a DC 10 Athletics check. The DM doesn't want you to get past a chasm? It's a DC 30 Athletics check.

If you're jumping over a chasm, the DCs are set by the PHB rules, pg182. The DM can adjust the width of the chasm to get the DC he wants.

[Username17]

-You need to assign levels, and roll for hit points.

He's an 11th level Wizard, he has 29 + Con Mod x 11 hit points. This is not super complicated.

-You need to choose what he has in his spellbook.

Why would you need that information? Seriously, what the hell? This is precious close to demanding that you name the NPC's parents. The players don't watch him choosing his spells, so it doesn't make a damn bit of difference what he has in his book. Especially if he does it the sane way and hides it in a secret page, the players will literally never see it.

-You need to choose what spells he has prepared.

Yes. Or you can b fairly restrained about having him pull spells out of your ass when h actually casts them. That seriously does work as well. You know what h could have, and you can just go from there. You seriously don't need to know what his cantrips or even his 1st level stuff is because the players will never see it.

-You need to buy his magic items.

Wait, what? Why would you need to buy his magic items? His equipment guidelines are approximate! Seriously just give him some shit and move on with your life.

So apparently it takes you hours to design NPCs because you stress about trivial shit that the players will never see anyway. I suggest not doing that. Anything that the players won't see you don't have to assign. Fuck, you certainly don't have to assign the item creation feats of an NPC Wizard, because the PCs won't ever care.

[RandomCasualty2]

If you're jumping over a chasm, the DCs are set by the PHB rules, pg182. The DM can adjust the width of the chasm to get the DC he wants.

Yeah, I'm not really sure why people make a big deal about the fact that 4E tells you to set the DCs.

A smart DM is going to design based on his PCs capabilities anyway.

So you see what your PCs can do and just create obstacles that they either can or can't bypass.

Because of flight magic in 3.5, railroad methods tended to be more fantastic and surprisingly harder to beat. it generally tended to be the age old "one way planar portal that you can't see through" And high magic railroad is pretty much worse than low magic, because it justifies you doing whatever you want.

Still I think the best way to combat railroading is to give the DM good tools to improvise with and find a good DM.

[RandomCasualty2]

Why would you need that information? Seriously, what the hell? This is precious close to demanding that you name the NPC's parents. The players don't watch him choosing his spells, so it doesn't make a damn bit of difference what he has in his book. Especially if he does it the sane way and hides it in a secret page, the players will literally never see it.

Well you need the information when one of your PCs says , "I look in his spellbook" after you kil him. Which happens to be a tactic that nearly all PC wizards do.

Some even try to sell the spellbook or use it as a backup in case theirs is destroyed.

Yes. Or you can b fairly restrained about having him pull spells out of your ass when h actually casts them. That seriously does work as well. You know what h could have, and you can just go from there. You seriously don't need to know what his cantrips or even his 1st level stuff is because the players will never see it.

Oh I know you could do that Frank, but that's not really what you're supposed to do and it amkes NPC wizards even more powerful because they can effectively cast as sorcerers with the whole PHB as their choices.

Wait, what? Why would you need to buy his magic items? His equipment guidelines are approximate! Seriously just give him some shit and move on with your life.

You still have to make sure that those costs fall somewhere near the guidelines. I'm not good at remembering numbers. I don't know what the cost is of a ring of protection +4, or a +6 gauntlet of strength off the top of my head.

So apparently it takes you hours to design NPCs because you stress about trivial shit that the players will never see anyway. I suggest not doing that. Anything that the players won't see you don't have to assign. Fuck, you certainly don't have to assign the item creation feats of an NPC Wizard, because the PCs won't ever care.

Well yeah Frank, I don't actually spend hours doing it, but then I'm not doing it by RAW when I just ignore the guy's skill points and what spells he prepared and what feats he took.

I mean in fact the idea that you're advocating skipping steps, and are probably more well versed in the rules than most of us is a good indication of why the 3.5 system is cumbersome and clunky as all hell.

Sure, I can eyeball it, but if you're supposed to do that then just have the system tell you to eyeball it like the 4E system does.

[MartinHarper]

I think the best way to combat railroading is to give the DM good tools to improvise with and find a good DM.

Advice in the DMG about saying yes and suchlike might help.