Quick fixes to improve 4e playability

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RandomCasualty2
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Post by RandomCasualty2 »

FrankTrollman wrote: Farming, bar tending, and even working as a maid are all "infinite wealth" tricks by the extremely short sighted definition you have railed against. The idea that the world has to be so frickin chaotic that characters can't even repeat the same own time odd jobs is totally insane. How are the players supposed to have any kind of grounding in any kind of persistent world if they can't even expect the same scut work to even exist the next time they go to town?
Not relaly Frank. Because these jobs give you some trivial amount of wealth. If people want to burn weeks or months working common jobs, that's fine. They're not really making nearly as much as they could by adventuring. But that's dumb anyway.

Also working like this tends to just barely pay the bills. Because you also need to worry about buying stuff like food, lodging and so forth. So maybe you do make 20 gold a week as a barkeep, but what of it? Say 3 of that is going to towards feeding you, and another 7 is going toward paying for your inn room. So you're left with about 10 gp a week. Consider that you've got to buy clothes and other supplies too, and that probably dwindles to around 5 or less net profit.

In any real economy it's fine for the PCs to do peasant work because well, peasants didn't make much money. They were all just barely getting by.
Last edited by RandomCasualty2 on Tue Jul 29, 2008 5:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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virgil
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Post by virgil »

Except that time goes as fast as you want. If nothing happens, you can just say that you work for two months and get two months of profit. And if you have a party of elves, then the lot of them can easily decide to take a century of downtime. It's much slower than adventuring, for certain, but it takes all of a minute to say where and how you live for the next century.
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Post by RandomCasualty2 »

virgileso wrote:Except that time goes as fast as you want. If nothing happens, you can just say that you work for two months and get two months of profit. And if you have a party of elves, then the lot of them can easily decide to take a century of downtime. It's much slower than adventuring, for certain, but it takes all of a minute to say where and how you live for the next century.
Yeah, but this sort of thing isn't that big a deal, because your'e playing adventurers, not bartenders. At worst you spend your 6 months of downtime making a little extra money. Say like under 50 gp. And nobody really cares.

You just can't go full time as barkeeps and give up your adventuring otherwise your DM looks at you and says "Ok, what was the point of even playing this game if you don't want to adventure? Fine, your characters retire and become bartenders, roll up some new ones that actually want to take on quests."

Not to mention, during all that time, it's likely this PC may get robbed. If people learn that he's keeping tons of gold secreted away like a miser, some 1st level thief probably breaks into his inn room while he's not there and steals it.
Last edited by RandomCasualty2 on Tue Jul 29, 2008 6:00 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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virgil
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Post by virgil »

You make players kill their characters because of a montage (not even that long)? Man, you're a jerk.
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Post by RandomCasualty2 »

virgileso wrote:You make players kill their characters because of a montage (not even that long)? Man, you're a jerk.
If it's 100 years, then hell yeah. If they get 6 months of downtime and decide to use it waiting tables, fine. But if they start turning down quests so they can work minimum wage jobs. Then yeah, then they're retired, and I'm going to tell them to make real adventurers this time. Because as far as I'm concerned if they're spending 100 years serving drinks, then they're no longer adventurers. They're just commoners, and these stories are about adventurers.

And as a far as being a jerk, they're being jerks for trying a stupid trick like that. obviously they all got together and said, "lets be elves and try to bust the wealth system by spending 100 years working as a barkeep."

That's just not being a constructive player or good for the game, and if they did that, they deserve to get bitchslapped. That's about as cheesy as saying "I'm going to start my character older and say he worked all that time as his backstory, so I added 200 yeras of pay to my starting wealth."
Last edited by RandomCasualty2 on Tue Jul 29, 2008 6:08 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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virgil
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Post by virgil »

Except that even 6 months can be enough downtime to get decent piles of cash, because not every job is minimum wage. Unless you're being such an ass that you will kill off characters that ever have marketable skills outside cleaning chimneys or means of cost-free living (spells can cover many living needs) that can potentially even make 'menial' work good when it's all profit.
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Post by RandomCasualty2 »

virgileso wrote:Except that even 6 months can be enough downtime to get decent piles of cash, because not every job is minimum wage. Unless you're being such an ass that you will kill off characters that ever have marketable skills outside cleaning chimneys or means of cost-free living (spells can cover many living needs) that can potentially even make 'menial' work good when it's all profit.
Well here's what your average adventurer could do:

-Act as an assistant to a weaponsmith (of course, since he doesn't own the forge and is just an employee he isn't making that much.)

-Make alchemical supplies. Pretty profitable if you can get customers. But there's already a trusted alchemist in town, and how many people really want to buy alchemist's fire?

-Train animals.

-Act as a bodyguard.

- Cast spells for profit (Again this is a matter of supply and demand, spellcasting goes for a lot of money, but it's not commonly needed, and those who do need it tend not to be able to afford it, like commoners and cure disease).

- Gamble for profit (course this will probably lead to some fights, people trying to rob the PC, accusing him of cheating and so on).

There's a few other things, but it's probably not going to get you more than 3-4 times minimum wage at most and the riskier stuff easily just leads into another adventure, which means your downtime gets cut short anyway.
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Post by MartinHarper »

RandomCasualty2 wrote:If you're going to give an entire castle for a piece of string, you're going to want more than someone's word on it. You are going to want your wizards (or at least a reputable wizard) to check it out and make sure that this magic string actually has real power.
Back in the real world, some people give their complete bank details to people they've never met, in countries they've never been to, over the internet, without doing any checks whatsoever, wizardly or otherwise. I'm pretty sure these internet con artists do not have Skill Training: Diplomacy.
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Post by MartinHarper »

RandomCasualty2 wrote:Obviously they all got together and said, "lets be elves and try to bust the wealth system by spending 100 years working as a barkeep."
I wonder if the magic item creation rules in 4e make it more robust to such things.
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Post by Psychic Robot »

I think this thread has established that RC2 is the gamer to which 4e caters--he wants his PCs to be action heroes, not Slightly-Above-Average Joes who become action heroes.
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Post by Kaelik »

Voss wrote:
RandomCasualty2 wrote:I'm not really against buying low and selling high, but what I am against is economic control.
I hate to point this out to you, mostly because it should be freaking obvious, but what you're talking about *is* economic control. You aren't against it, you're advocating economic control, in the form of 'you can't do that'. Where 'that' is apparently anything you don't dictate they can do.
You misunderstand. He is against Players controlling the economy.

Just like he's against Players controlling kingdoms, players controlling their choices about what problems they do and do not want to solve, and player control of their own actions in combat.

He pretty much just wants to play:

I am the all powerful DM! I will now tell you a story about some people who we will say are you, but really they are just going to follow my tracks and do the things that I make obvious are the "right" choices as opposed to the "wrong" choices (anything that deviates from my script, especially if I didn't even think of it).

Also, for combat, roll a d20, 11 or higher hits, then roll 3d6 for damage against an arbitrary number of HP based on how badass I think this Monster/NPC is. (Yes Badass, because if you try to attack anyone I don't want you to attack, like say a commoner in the street, then I will automatically spawn 400 super elite guards (read DR 18/-) and TPK the party.)

Which is of course why he loves 4e so much. Because he's a boring uncreative DM who sees it as a story that he alone gets to make up.
Last edited by Kaelik on Tue Jul 29, 2008 7:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by virgil »

MartinHarper wrote:I wonder if the magic item creation rules in 4e make it more robust to such things.
They performed a two-pronged assault to such activities.

First, there are no rules for earning money outside of prying it from the cold dead hands of monsters, leaving you to the whims of railroading jerkitude that RC apparently stands behind.

Second, elves are the longest lived race in 4e, which is in the lower 200 range; which limits long-term activities.
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Post by RandomCasualty2 »

Kaelik wrote:
Which is of course why he loves 4e so much. Because he's a boring uncreative DM who sees it as a story that he alone gets to make up.
Have you ever played in my campaigns?

If not, STFU, because you are talking out of your ass.

My player's actions in game routinely change things about the world. I just don't want them to have the "ALL YOUR BASE ARE BELONG TO US!" cheat codes that you seem to be advocating. Sorry if I don't want my world to fall apart because some fool casts fabricate or somebody gets a diplomacy of +25. My games have a bit more consistency and verisimilitude than that.

Also for the record, I have had PCs who have controlled kingdoms, and those who have picked their own quests. You're so far from wrong that it makes you look like a fool.
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Post by virgil »

No need to get so hot around the edges, unless we're hitting a sore point, perhaps? We're going off of the kind of arguments you're advocating. We've already mentioned superior wealth/magic controls, because controlling whether players can earn money, especially your way, is a railroading twit thing to do.
Last edited by virgil on Tue Jul 29, 2008 8:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by RandomCasualty2 »

virgileso wrote:No need to get so hot around the edges, unless we're hitting a sore point, perhaps? We're going off of the kind of arguments you're advocating. We've already mentioned superior wealth/magic controls, because controlling whether players can earn money, especially your way, is a railroading twit thing to do.
I hate when people accuse me of being a bad DM without sitting in for even part of a session just based off some stuff I said on a message board that doesn't promote their "if you stop a player from walking all over you, you're a bad DM" attitude.

And seriously, preventing PCs from spending 100 years working mundane jobs to earn money is a railorading twit thing to do?

What the fuck?

Honestly, that's an asshole player thing to do. Seriously, they know the DM wants to send them on adventures, that's the whole damn point of the game. If they want to refuse every quest they get and just sit in a bar serving drinks, then they're being dicks.

It's one thing to refuse a quest that doesn't fit in with your character's goals, and makes no sense for him to go on. But if your character just outright gives up adventuring altogether to run a bar... well honestly you're no longer playing DUngeons & Dragons, you're playing Taverns & Tavernkeepers.

If they wanted to do that, they shouldn't have joined my game, where I specifically told them to make adventurers.

Seriously I'm not going to bend over backwards to accommodate PCs whose sole purpose is just to try to break the game using some crazy gimmick. This really is a case of bad players, and not broken rules.
Last edited by RandomCasualty2 on Tue Jul 29, 2008 8:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Voss »

RandomCasualty2 wrote:
virgileso wrote:No need to get so hot around the edges, unless we're hitting a sore point, perhaps? We're going off of the kind of arguments you're advocating. We've already mentioned superior wealth/magic controls, because controlling whether players can earn money, especially your way, is a railroading twit thing to do.
I hate when people accuse me of being a bad DM without sitting in for even part of a session just based off some stuff I said on a message board
We only have the information you give us. The entire 4e discussion has revolved around the benefits of limiting your players solely to the things you specifically allow them to do in your personal playground.
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Post by virgil »

I suspect part of the accusation is more at the hypothetical situation that you create, the image of a Gygaxian DM, especially since you like to argue the precise details of hypothetical situations created by generalizations when it suits you.

For the piggy-bank adventurer, how is he refusing adventures? The screen fades to black, white-text appears saying "twenty years later", and then the show begins with that much more money. You're the one that's describing a DM that apparently forces the player to RP his job in real-time or something, throwing plot hook after plot hook at him while he tills the field.

The concept of a piggy-bank adventurer is actually kind of interesting, and I've contemplated making a game based on such, and have run a one-shot on such assumptions.

Besides, you also blithely ignored the other options for even short-term money earning, off-handedly deciding that no activity can earn more than four times minimum wage without adventuring, advocating making the profitable skills a non-option (such as alchemy or spells-for-cash).
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Post by RandomCasualty2 »

virgileso wrote: For the piggy-bank adventurer, how is he refusing adventures? The screen fades to black, white-text appears saying "twenty years later", and then the show begins with that much more money. You're the one that's describing a DM that apparently forces the player to RP his job in real-time or something, throwing plot hook after plot hook at him while he tills the field.
Well, because this is a living breathing world. Most of the time you just don't have 20 years before something interesting happens. By then the city or town you live in will be razed to the ground if you don't stop it. That means that there is shit going on in those 20 years that you're turning down.

You complain that I don't make the world interactive, but then you want the PCs to be able to sit on their asses for 20 years doing nothing and not have anything happen. In other words, the PCs have no noticeable effect on the world. Stop the villain, ignore the villain, it doens't matter.

No, my worlds aren't like static MMORPGs where nothing you do matters. Waterdeep may not be there in 20 years if you just ignore the evil plots going on. You're the heroes and it's your job to save it. If you don't... well, lets just say that your tavern business may get a few snags when the city is overrun by demons in 10 years, and all the money you saved up wont' do you any good because you're just a level 1 commoner.

Besides, you also blithely ignored the other options for even short-term money earning, off-handedly deciding that no activity can earn more than four times minimum wage without adventuring, advocating making the profitable skills a non-option (such as alchemy or spells-for-cash).
They're an option, they're just not as lucrative an option as people assume. A lot of players want to go with the most favorable assumption, namely that you can cast every spell slot you have for profit every day. That there's some "spell bank" that you go to and cast your spells into and you get cash back. But that's not economy works, and part of the reason I'd reckon that spells are so expensive is because there isn't much need for them. Aside from adventurers, not many people need spells. Perhaps a nobleman needs a regenerate on an eye that got poked out during a rapier duel or something, but that stuff is going to be rare.

Like I said, most of the people who might want magic, like a farmer who wants water for his crops or wants a disease cured, just can't afford it. Those that can afford it probably have someone they already rely on to do so. I mean really if you want someone resurrected, aren't you going to take it to the local temple that you trust, instead of some random adventurer cleric that is just passing through (and may be a total fraud for all you know).

Similarly alchemical supplies... who really buys much acid or alchemist's fire besides adventurers and people already capable of making it for themselves?

I mean like any job these sort of things require job openings. If the king's alchemist just died and you want to fill in for the position, thne sure that could work. But at the point you're getting a permanent position like that, you're basically retiring, since the king doesn't want his alchemist or court mage to go running off on adventures every few months.

If you want to go into business, you've got to sel something that there's a demand for. Selling adventurer services just isn't' that lucrative of a business, despite the expensive stuff involved, because the demand is pretty small.
Last edited by RandomCasualty2 on Tue Jul 29, 2008 9:30 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Post by ckafrica »

Well this has certainly gotten away from some quick ideas of making a game better.

Having read the whole set of postings at once. I think RC is getting accused of crimes (used only literarily) far worse than he has admitted to. It seems to me that rather than saying he wants to control everything with an iron fist a DM, he simply doesn't want certain mechanics that can through everything thing on its head by a simple roll of the dice.

I don't see how this is such an issue. I don't force PCs to do anything. I have magic tea partying things that you don't want to happen so its very hard is okay, especially when the 3.5 diplomacy rules are so retarded. If my players want to try something that is not what I had intended I don't just say no you can't but I make the DC so hard that is is extremely unlikely (Roll a 20). If they make it, I grind my teeth and try to come up with something to fit this situation.

And considering everyone seems to be agreed that D&D economics are crazy busted, I don't know what everyone's problem is with trying to make sure PCs don't abuse it. I mean negotiating a price down by 50% is crazy. Unless you are in a Vietnamese tourist shop, at 50% down your probably past their profit margin and they're sell at a loss, so unless the merchant is so desparate to move their stock anyways, they won't do it.

As for buying low and selling high, you do have to make sure that you have some checks and balances. I try to sell a thousand rubies worth a 1000gp each in a town and I will probably outpace the demand so I won't be able to sell them at full value if I do it all at once. And now we are in logistics and dragons; which is not what I want to play.

I'd much prefer my economics being to some extent at DMs fiat. "Guys want to be merchants? OK well you listen around buy a few drinks and one guy says if you can bring (material X) to (place Y) you will get (Z gp) a pound for it. The best place to by X is in place W. You gonna go?" That way I can clearly set the rewards that the players get for this make it an adventure and it can be their choice to do it.

Just my 2 cents
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Post by Draco_Argentum »

Psychic Robot wrote: There's so much fail in these three paragraphs that I want to burn something.
Theres totally four paragraphs there.




The problem still isn't PCs who want to be wage slaves off screen for 100 years. If they really want to do that it should work. Which just gets back to the real problem, cash for power.
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Post by RandomCasualty2 »

Draco_Argentum wrote: The problem still isn't PCs who want to be wage slaves off screen for 100 years. If they really want to do that it should work. Which just gets back to the real problem, cash for power.
I still feel like this falls into the "power for nothing" category.

It's really a lot like the PCs just asking you if they can start with 5000 (or whatever) extra gold by doing effectively nothing.

It's like a PC saying, "My character undergoes rigorous weight training for 6 months, can I increase my strength score?"

I'm guessing you'd say "no" to that as a DM, even though it makes perfect sense that someone could get stronger by lifting weights.
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Post by angelfromanotherpin »

RandomCasualty2 wrote:It's like a PC saying, "My character undergoes rigorous weight training for 6 months, can I increase my strength score?"

I'm guessing you'd say "no" to that as a DM, even though it makes perfect sense that someone could get stronger by lifting weights.
Sure, because it's not supported by the rules.

Unlike working for profit, which totally is supported by the rules.
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Post by RandomCasualty2 »

angelfromanotherpin wrote: Sure, because it's not supported by the rules.

Unlike working for profit, which totally is supported by the rules.
They also have wealth by level guidelines which working for 100 years explicitly breaks.

Working for 100 years is something that the designers never intended people to do, and is a bug exploit, plain and simple. It's why the RPGA only gave you a set amount of downtime before adventures.
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Post by Bigode »

RandomCasualty2 wrote:
angelfromanotherpin wrote: Sure, because it's not supported by the rules.

Unlike working for profit, which totally is supported by the rules.
They also have wealth by level guidelines which working for 100 years explicitly breaks.

Working for 100 years is something that the designers never intended people to do, and is a bug exploit, plain and simple. It's why the RPGA only gave you a set amount of downtime before adventures.
The correct solution's a tiered (e.g. wish) economy, not smashing verisimilitude by trying to ban work, craft and mining.
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Post by virgil »

What Bigode says is quite true.

Even then, in many a story (not all, but enough to make an argument), purchasable equipment/gear meant little once the basics were covered. Either by the character simply starting out with better than what money could buy, or by the character being awesome enough that having virtually any weapon meant he could slay an army, sometimes both.

The stories I can think of where the character cared about how much money was in his pockets were for living expenses, with an inherent distaste towards an honest day's pay.

But no, you seem to want to fight against fixes in an inherently conflicted economy where money=power and you'll flat-out kill entire towns with the characters within for daring to be intelligent with this realization.

The economy needs to be tiered. Generic plus items need to go, the lack of their bonuses folded into the character's own power.

I'll have to go back and check the prior pages, but we need to fix the fact that a horde of hoboes with rocks can kill virtually anything in the game.

Screw that, I have a better fix for 4E, play the Tomes. If you want a "beer & pretzels" game, then purchase Hero Quest or one of the like games.
Last edited by virgil on Wed Jul 30, 2008 6:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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