Riding a Huge Fire-Breathing Flying Lizard

[Koumei]

So, I've been reading through the Discworld books again. Pretty much all of them. I recently read The Colour of Magic, and although it lacks the refinement of later books and my favourites are the City Watch ones, it was still a great read.

And I got up to the dragon riders. Now, I'm soon playing in a level 10 game, and was tossing ideas around (Pokemaster, Witchblade-themed Shadow Warrior, mad scientist Puppeteer etc.), and I thought "How about a Knight that rides a dragon?"

So here we get to the point. It's been said that we need rules for riding dragons, because that's a very important thing for people to do. We also need rules for having "pet" dragons that work as big mounts and decent combat machines, scaling nicely with level, and not having all the fan-wank bullshit attached.

Do we have thoughts or ideas? Something already existing that I missed?

---

Assuming we don't, I was thinking:

CR = rider level - 2
HD = CR

(Dragon Hit Dice: d12 HP, all saves are good, full BAB, 6+Int skills)

It should be at least one size larger than the rider, preferably more.

Speed: normal for size (40 ft. if Large, etc.)
Fly Speed: double land speed, poor manoeuvrability (Clumsy if bigger than Huge)

Natural Armour equal to Hit Dice? HD + X? Its AC needs to be roughly as good as the rider's, with the understanding that touch attacks will hit it.

Ability scores: Can we make this work easily, with Str and Con being HD + X, while Dex is 10, Int is 4 and Wis and Cha are HD + Y (low)?

Attacks: Sharp face, two sharp arms, tail, two flappers

Fiery Breath Weapon (cone by size, 1/d4+1 rounds, Ref half, 2d6/HD, maybe it sets people on fire if they fail the save) and Fire Immunity

And that could seriously be it. Maybe add SR of HD + 10 (so for a level 10 character, their 8 HD dragon has SR 18, meaning enemy casters succeed a little more than half the time). Feats could add a fierce roar, the ability to sweep up a hurricane/duststorm with its wings, the ability to summon storms around it and other "dragons traditionally do this, while still being big dumb brutes" abilities.

---

Does that seem about right? Or do we in fact already have something that works nicely?

[Kaelik]

Okay, I want you to go into Races of War hit Ctrl-F and type in Dragon Lancer.

[Koumei]

You mean where it says "You should ride a dragon with a CR two less than your own" then says:

"First of all, we know that the Dragons in the Monster Manual make you sad. They make us sad too. Not just because they are all color coded by philosophy and that’s really dumb, but also because Dragons are way too small. Seriously, the proper challenge for most adventurers is a Dragon the size of my dog, and you just can’t ride around on those things at all. Most characters want to ride around on a dragon that is at least two sizes larger than they are, and under the normal rules that’s just not available until epic levels (by which time you no longer care)."

?

Because that doesn't actually answer my point. Or did you specifically mean to go into the thread, not the pdf, and search for every mention of it, because someone, somewhere, posted their own guide to it?

[Quantumboost]

If we're talking 10th level or higher, I've seen the "half-dragon wyvern" method proposed before:

First, get a wyvern (Large, but not Huge, so a Medium humanoid can potentially ride it). Then apply the half-dragon template or ... the half-dragon class on these boards that I can't seem to find right now, and the result is right around CR 8. You get all the "ridable fire-breathing wingaling lizard" without all the "boost the CR into the stratosphere" and "my mount is smarter than I am".

If you want it a couple CR lower, you can instead dragonify a Large or Huge snake or something else - half-dragoning gives them the wings and fire breath anyway so it can pretty much be whatever you can justify using as a chassis.

Either way, you can add more class levels afterwards to keep it at a level-appropriate CR.

[Kaelik]

Oh, so you just want to redesign all the Dragons in the entire game because you don't like your choices of mount as the rules currently stand.

Okay, sorry, can't really help you with that.

[CatharzGodfoot]

Does that seem about right? Or do we in fact already have something that works nicely?

That seems about right. The dragon mount of a 1st level character would have to be CR 1/4, but really should be on the level of a warhorse. That's if you even want to allow 1st-level 'dragon knights', which doesn't seem beyond the realm of possibility (especially when the dragon gains power with the knight).
Then again, with your 5 level minimum you might not care anyway...

5th level also works out nicely because characters can fly at that point anyway.


Having the skill points at 3 per level (6 - 3), what do dragons take? Climb, Jump. Intimidate? That seems about right to me. If you don't think that's enough, you should probably follow the MM and give them auto ranks in climb and jump. Then you could add in Spot and Track or Sense Motive.

I wouldn't give them 5,000,000 attacks like they have in the books. A bite could be enough for natural attacks, plus trample and tail sweep special attacks. Trample is a line effect as part of a grounded move action and has a chance of knockdown and overruns (but only works on creatures smaller than the dragon), tail sweep is a half-burst (like burning hands) that also has a chance of knockdown. And, of course, there's the fire breath.

This was suggested in another 'reworking dragons' thread, but they should really get enhancement bonuses to (at the very least) natural armor, strength, and constitution. 'Dragons don't need giant-strength belts'. You might even enhance dexterity


Compare a 5th level character's dragon (CR 3) to a heavy warhorse:

The horse has 30 HP, an AC of 14 (touch 10)
full attack +6/+6 (1d6+4) and +1 (1d4+2) (Seriously!), grapple +11
Fortitude +7/Reflex +5/Will +2
low-light vision, scent, and a land speed of 50'.

I'll use 14 for attribute "X" and 10 for attribute "Y", so that gives the dragon a strength and constitution of 17 and charisma and wisdom of 13. Then add the enhancement bonus for Str & Con of +4. Natural AC can be level plus enhancement.

The dragon has (6.5 + 4)*3 = 31 HP, an AC of 10 + 5 - 1 = 14 (touch 9)
standard attack of +6 (1d8+6) (that's the bite) or 3d6 (fire, in a 20' cone? Reflex DC 15)
full attack 1d6+4 vs. all foes in 15' half-circle + knockdown (Reflex DC 15), grapple +12
Fortitude 8/Reflex 4/Will 6
low-light vision, scent, a land speed of 40', and a fly speed of 80' (clumsy). And they get the special auto-attack when they make a move action over someone of medium size or smaller.

That seems about right to me. If you let them take appropriate [fiendish] feats, they should scale OK in size as well.

[Calibron]

Half-Dragon. Slap that on a Wyvern and you're good to go. As you gain levels advance the Wyvern HD so that it's CR stays in line or just let it re-take the Half-Dragon class over and over again. 'course this won't work at extremely high levels, but then again nothing really foes.

[Bigode]

My thread didn't cease to exist just because it just fell to the 2nd page (hilariously, it was quoted but not actually named ...). I.e. if the current version doesn't work to your satisfaction, tweak that. And I'd be happy to hear about it. As for a mount for level 1: a) warhorses have been the standard, despite being genuinely unbalanced; b) nobody in Tome material gets a cohort before level 6 IIRC; c) since when does Koumei play before level 5 (so she might hasten it by all of 1 level, just start at 6 this time, or - gasp - actually play the story of getting the dragon)?

The wyvern solution works for some time as long as no official guidelines are followed, of course.

[Maxus]

I'm looking at a Dragon Special Mount for a Kantian Paladin. I'm using Bigode's Dragon class for the mount. Although he won't be Large for 2 levels after he's acquired, but I can't do much about that.

I'm looking forward to seeing it in action, actually.

[Bigode]

I'm looking at a Dragon Special Mount for a Kantian Paladin. I'm using Bigode's Dragon class for the mount. Although he won't be Large for 2 levels after he's acquired, but I can't do much about that.

I'm looking forward to seeing it in action, actually.

Me too. But well, if you want it to be Large since level 3, there's not much one can do - I personally would make the size feats stacking was I to use them; unfortunately there's the character level requisite. You might remove it, but I sure don't guarantee its balance ...

[Maxus]

I'm looking at a Dragon Special Mount for a Kantian Paladin. I'm using Bigode's Dragon class for the mount. Although he won't be Large for 2 levels after he's acquired, but I can't do much about that.

I'm looking forward to seeing it in action, actually.

Me too. But well, if you want it to be Large since level 3, there's not much one can do - I personally would make the size feats stacking was I to use them; unfortunately there's the character level requisite. You might remove it, but I sure don't guarantee its balance ...

Yeah. I came up with a graceful in-game explanation. It runneth thus:

-Dragons are a bit like goldfish in that they grow to the limits of their environment and feeding.
-This particular dragon is old enough to be quite a bit bigger, but he's been captive and not fed a particularly nourishing diet.
-When he's sprung, he'll be eating a lot, causing a slight drain on the paladin's purse, but at the benefit of practically seeing him grow. So he'll go up a vertical foot in the first few few weeks of freedom, and after that slow down enough so he'll be twelve or so feet tall and a suitable mount by the time the Paladin hits level 7.


Which means that for two levels, the dragon's not so much being ridden as he is tagging along, either by air or on foot.

[Bigode]

Yeah. I came up with a graceful in-game explanation. It runneth thus:

-Dragons are a bit like goldfish in that they grow to the limits of their environment and feeding.
-This particular dragon is old enough to be quite a bit bigger, but he's been captive and not fed a particularly nourishing diet.
-When he's sprung, he'll be eating a lot, causing a slight drain on the paladin's purse, but at the benefit of practically seeing him grow. So he'll go up a vertical foot in the first few few weeks of freedom, and after that slow down enough so he'll be twelve or so feet tall and a suitable mount by the time the Paladin hits level 7.


Which means that for two levels, the dragon's not so much being ridden as he is tagging along, either by air or on foot.

ROFL - but that'll keep happening, since the entire growth of a dragon could be much faster than most people expect with the class.

[Maxus]

Yeah. I came up with a graceful in-game explanation. It runneth thus:

-Dragons are a bit like goldfish in that they grow to the limits of their environment and feeding.
-This particular dragon is old enough to be quite a bit bigger, but he's been captive and not fed a particularly nourishing diet.
-When he's sprung, he'll be eating a lot, causing a slight drain on the paladin's purse, but at the benefit of practically seeing him grow. So he'll go up a vertical foot in the first few few weeks of freedom, and after that slow down enough so he'll be twelve or so feet tall and a suitable mount by the time the Paladin hits level 7.


Which means that for two levels, the dragon's not so much being ridden as he is tagging along, either by air or on foot.

ROFL - but that'll keep happening, since the entire growth of a dragon could be much faster than most people expect with the class.

Mmhmm, and I'm looking forward to seeing how the Paladin deals with a mount who could step on him. As I recall, Large is 10 or so feet, Huge is 15, Gargantuan is 30-some-odd...Not sure about Collossal.

I'm not sure of the timescale of this game. It'll probably be a few years, in-game. But, yeah, a dragon could go from a Medium-sized face-chomper to a Collossal crowd-crusher in...what is it...two months, using the four-encounters-a-day rule? Not that I'm following that rule anyway.

[Koumei]

Bigode: I'm embarrassed to say I completely forgot your thread.

And thanks for the various suggestions, guys. It looks like a 1/2 Dragon Wyvern, or Bigode's Dragon, would work just fine.

Or a 1/2 Dragon orca or whatever*.

*Hey, it's Garchomp!

[Talisman]

As I recall, Large is 10 or so feet, Huge is 15, Gargantuan is 30-some-odd...Not sure about Collossal.

Large is 8'-16'; Huge is 16'-32'; Gargantuan is 32'-64'; Colossal is 64'+

Each size category is double that of the previous one.

All measurements are approximate.

[Bigode]

Maxus: yeah, you'd have quite worse problems by following XP rules than just ridiculous growth. But hell, horses are pretty able to step on (normal, at least) people too.

Koumei: no problem. I just don't check what a garchomp is for fear of finding garchomp porn. (OK, there are safe sources ...)

P.S.: why the fvck : P == "Sick"?

[Psychic Robot]

Really, instead of using the actual "dragon" racial class, why not stat up an entity designed for characters who want to to the dragonrider thing? Keep it at large size for all levels.

Also, Dragon Magic had a drakkensteed or somesuch that paladins could use. It lacks the fire-breathing, but it does indeed fly.

[Koumei]

Garchomp is basically a shark-ish dragon from Pokemon. It shocked the competitive world when it appeared (4th generation), because everyone scrambled to find a way to incorporate it into their team (huge ATT stat or something. I have yet to actually evolve my Gible) or to counter it.

They have since calmed down, of course. Like, ages ago. Anyway, it looks pretty awesome.

And as for the Drakkensteed thing, it can indeed work. But in some ways, I'm a traditionalist, and feel that dragons should breathe fire. No, not lightning or acid or your mum, but fire. Some can summon storms (or are permanently surrounded by them), some are poisonous (either their smoke, venomous bites/tails, or toxic flesh), and some are more stupid than others.

But they fly and breathe fire. And can learn Draco Meteor from the old lady in Veilstone.

[Talisman]

But in some ways, I'm a traditionalist, and feel that dragons should breathe fire. No, not lightning or acid or your mum, but fire.

HELL YEAH!

[CatharzGodfoot]

I'm OK with poisonous/acidic dragons. That's at least as classic. On the other hand, scaled horses just don't do it. A dragon has to look like a serpent.

[Bigode]

Really, instead of using the actual "dragon" racial class, why not stat up an entity designed for characters who want to to the dragonrider thing? Keep it at large size for all levels.

A) Who needs consistent rules?
B) Why the fvck would you want it to stay Large?

[Maxus]

Seriously.

The dragon I'm statting up has Koumei's Tome-style Improved Natural Attack, for that extra bite. So what with the improvements to his natural weapons and the increases in size, he'll be packing quite the punch.

Admittedly, this is so he can keep up with the Paladin, who wields a Bastard sword and against evil creatures, does 1d10 + 2d6 (Bonus damage from Holy weapon quality) + 2d6 (Smite Evil) +3.

[ubernoob]

Should the paladin't mount be as good against evil creatures as the paladin? Shouldn't it only be as good as his baseline abilities?

[Psychic Robot]

Really, instead of using the actual "dragon" racial class, why not stat up an entity designed for characters who want to to the dragonrider thing? Keep it at large size for all levels.

A) Who needs consistent rules?
B) Why the fvck would you want it to stay Large?

A) Yes, yes, I know, EBD and bullshit.
B) For the sake of balance?

[Prak]

You might even enhance dexterity

It depends on one's vision of a dragon. The 10 Dex dragons in the MM are just... odd. Usually dragons are clumsy brute, and should probably have an 8 dex at best, or graceful, lithe creatures whose form is more reminiscent of a snake or cat, and should probably have a 16 dex at worst.

Compare a 5th level character's dragon (CR 3) to a heavy warhorse:

The horse has 30 HP, an AC of 14 (touch 10)
full attack +6/+6 (1d6+4) and +1 (1d4+2) (Seriously!), grapple +11
Fortitude +7/Reflex +5/Will +2
low-light vision, scent, and a land speed of 50'.

I'll use 14 for attribute "X" and 10 for attribute "Y", so that gives the dragon a strength and constitution of 17 and charisma and wisdom of 13. Then add the enhancement bonus for Str & Con of +4. Natural AC can be level plus enhancement.

The dragon has (6.5 + 4)*3 = 31 HP, an AC of 10 + 5 - 1 = 14 (touch 9)
standard attack of +6 (1d8+6) (that's the bite) or 3d6 (fire, in a 20' cone? Reflex DC 15)
full attack 1d6+4 vs. all foes in 15' half-circle + knockdown (Reflex DC 15), grapple +12
Fortitude 8/Reflex 4/Will 6
low-light vision, scent, a land speed of 40', and a fly speed of 80' (clumsy). And they get the special auto-attack when they make a move action over someone of medium size or smaller.

That seems about right to me. If you let them take appropriate [fiendish] feats, they should scale OK in size as well.

I'd have to agree, it's a pretty good equal to a warhorse, but it should probably be compared to other mounts at higher and lower levels.

Mmhmm, and I'm looking forward to seeing how the Paladin deals with a mount who could step on him. As I recall, Large is 10 or so feet, Huge is 15, Gargantuan is 30-some-odd...Not sure about Collossal.

Medium is 4-8', Large is 8-16', Huge is 16-32', Gargantuan is 32-64' and Colossal is 64+'. It's a doubling pattern. Likewise, small is 2-4', tiny is 1-2', diminutive is 6"-1', and fine is 6" or less.

And talisman beat me to it.. meh.

Seriously.

The dragon I'm statting up has Koumei's Tome-style Improved Natural Attack, for that extra bite. So what with the improvements to his natural weapons and the increases in size, he'll be packing quite the punch.

Admittedly, this is so he can keep up with the Paladin, who wields a Bastard sword and against evil creatures, does 1d10 + 2d6 (Bonus damage from Holy weapon quality) + 2d6 (Smite Evil) +3.

but does it have Eleven Testicles?